China says 400 million can't speak national language

• Gun

  23 Dec 13, 18:53

  Originally posted by BanguIzai:

  China's policy of teaching the "national language" has gone till the extent of destroying the mother tongue of different segments of people.

  What the government propagates is that "teaching of the national language (i.e. Putonghua) is not to exterminate the regional languages, but to promote social mobility through intralingual communication".

  What the teachers do in the schools are often as below:

   

  • â—� Students are not allowed to communicate in the regional languages in the class, out of the class, during CCA period as well
  • â—� Students found speaking a regional language will be punished and humilated in front of all the students in the class. Some schools will have a public humiliation during morning assembly period
  • â—� Cancellation of regional language broadcasts in many Metro systems and Bus Public transport including Shanghai and Guangxi leaving only National Language broadcasts
  • â—� Cancellation of regional language broadcasts in most Channels allowing only 1 or at most 2 channels for regional language including in Guangdong province which allows its few Cantonese TV for the purpose of propagating for Government Agenda in response to compete against to the strong audience support for Hong Kong channels
  • â—� Forcible use of only Hanyu Pinyin for personal names and all street names, city names and locality names. Example: "Kwongtung" is read perfectly in Cantonese but not "Guangdong". Even Japan does not Japanize all local names, one look at Hokkaido will show you most names in Hokkaido preserved the pre-Japanese names of Ainu ethnic group (such as Japanese -betsu as a preservation of Ainu -pet : meaning river). Okinawa people get to use their Okinawa names in their original forms and not forced to use the mainstream Japanized forms.
  • â—� Frequent deletion of regional language materials when uploaded to the China versions of their own social media (eg. Youku)
  • â—� State sponsorship for scholarly materials that propagate regularly the message "National Language is not for threating the survival of the Regional Language" when all forces are aimed directly to destroy the social-wide use of the Regional Language
  • â—� All these trends have caused great response among its people about the survival of the loss of preservation for Regional Language and with illegitimate use of the Central Powers to destroy the Regional Language using the government's upper hands whether directly/indirectly under the instruction of the Central Power

   

  Do you have source about China's national langauge forcing minorities or dialect speaking communities to drop and even ban them from speaking ?

  For Okinawans, well, let's say they are not as fortunate under the Japanese for over last 100 years. Till today, they unofficially discouraged from using their mother tongue and even directly told that their language "corrupts" the Standard Japanese!

  http://japanfocus.org/-Patrick-Heinrich/1596

  Okinawa Times on December 3rd 2004, a government official opposed the idea of reviving the Ryukyuan languages and having them taught in school. She writes: ‘I have come across the misunderstanding that the Okinawa dialects are believed to constitute language systems of their own because terms such as Okinawan or island language and the like exist. As a matter of fact, they are merely instances of corrupt accents and Old Japanese words which have not vanished but continue to be used in Okinawa. (…) Although there have recently been voices calling for teaching the dialects as languages to children, such a practice would be dreadful. What is the idea of teaching corrupt accents? If pupils are not taught to speak proper Japanese they will face humiliation when grown up because of the language ba -

  See more at: http://japanfocus.org/-Patrick-Heinrich/1596#sthash.TOzpfbHU.dpuf

   

   

   

• charlize

  27 Dec 13, 01:01

  

• Clivebenss

  29 Dec 13, 10:14

  now speak okinawan.

  

• At the Bed

  29 Dec 13, 10:48

  

• SBS 7603R

  29 Dec 13, 10:53

  

• At the Bed

  29 Dec 13, 10:56

  

• laurence82

  29 Dec 13, 20:52

  break

• SBS 7603R

  29 Dec 13, 20:54

  

• Clivebenss

  30 Dec 13, 18:14

  okinawa break.

  

• BanguIzai

  31 Dec 13, 04:11

  Originally posted by Gun:

  Do you have source about China's national langauge forcing minorities or dialect speaking communities to drop and even ban them from speaking ?

  For Okinawans, well, let's say they are not as fortunate under the Japanese for over last 100 years. Till today, they unofficially discouraged from using their mother tongue and even directly told that their language "corrupts" the Standard Japanese!

  http://japanfocus.org/-Patrick-Heinrich/1596

  Okinawa Times on December 3rd 2004, a government official opposed the idea of reviving the Ryukyuan languages and having them taught in school. She writes: ‘I have come across the misunderstanding that the Okinawa dialects are believed to constitute language systems of their own because terms such as Okinawan or island language and the like exist. As a matter of fact, they are merely instances of corrupt accents and Old Japanese words which have not vanished but continue to be used in Okinawa. (…) Although there have recently been voices calling for teaching the dialects as languages to children, such a practice would be dreadful. What is the idea of teaching corrupt accents? If pupils are not taught to speak proper Japanese they will face humiliation when grown up because of the language ba -

  See more at: http://japanfocus.org/-Patrick-Heinrich/1596#sthash.TOzpfbHU.dpuf

   

   

   

  Poor languages and dialects had been suffering under the hands of Nationalist policies:

  http://travel.cnn.com/shanghai/life/you-think-youre-speaking-shanghainese-not-so-fast-666815

  Shanghai struggles to save disappearing language

  The Shanghai government is facing a problem it never thought it would have: finding Shanghainese speakers

  22 November, 2010

  .

  .

  .

   

  Important quotes to note from the article:

   

  The city is now trying to preserve the language for research, preservation and promotion activities, a 180-degree change from a national push in the 1990s that tried to eliminate the local dialect, banning its use in the media and in school.

   

   

  “This is sad, but the loss of a local dialect is not just a problem in Shanghai, but also a problem of the whole south China where there are many local dialects,” posts Laisinanning on Kuandaishan. “If there are no actions taken, it’s just a matter of time that all dialects in southern China will be extinct, including Shanghainese.”

   

   

• Clivebenss

  31 Dec 13, 12:28

  There will be no more dialects, just like the first emperor but without killing scholars or burning books.

  

• Clivebenss

  1 Jan 14, 19:19

  

• BanguIzai

  1 Jan 14, 22:37

  Originally posted by Clivebenss:

  There will be no more dialects, just like the first emperor but without killing scholars or burning books.

  

  Let's take a look at the current situation of Hokkien in China.

  At Ethnologue: (http://www.ethnologue.com/)
  Summary: Ethnologue: Languages of the World is a comprehensive reference work cataloging all of the world’s known living languages.

  Ethnologue has introduced a scale, EGIDS scale, to grade the vitality of languages in the whole world in 10 levels.
  (http://www.ethnologue.com/about/language-status)
                                   EGIDS scale:
  

  At this link (http://www.ethnologue.com/country/CN), Ethnologue records the number of separate languages in China as 299 languages listed. Summary: The number of individual languages listed for China is 299. Of these, 298 are living and 1 is extinct. Of the living languages, 14 are institutional, 23 are developing, 111 are vigorous, 122 are in trouble, and 28 are dying.

  At this sublink (http://www.ethnologue.com/country/CN/status) list all the 299 languages above according to the 10 levels for status of each language of China.
  I will compare the situation of the corresponding Chinese Languages only (i.e. which are classified as "Chinese Dialects" according to the Chinese Government) and list them below:

  Level 1 - National
  Definition - " The language is used in education, work, mass media, and government at the national level "

  Chinese, Mandarin

  [cmn] 1 (National). De facto national language. 840,000,000 in China (2000 census), increasing. 70% of Chinese language users speak a Mandarin dialect as L1. Population total all countries: 847,755,970.

   

  Level 2 - Provincial
  Definition - " The language is used in education, work, mass media, and government within major administrative subdivisions of a nation "

  Chinese, Yue

  [yue] 2 (Provincial). De facto provincial language in Guangdong Province. 52,000,000 in China (1984). Population total all countries: 62,239,960.

   

  Level 5 - Developing
  Definition - " The language is in vigorous use, with literature in a standardized form being used by some though this is not yet widespread or sustainable "

  Chinese Sign Language

  [csl] 5 (Developing). Ethnic population: 20,040,000 deaf persons in China (2006 China Disabled Persons’ Federation).

   

  Chinese, Hakka

  [hak] 5 (Developing). 25,700,000 in China (1984). Population total all countries: 30,082,810.

   

  Chinese, Min Bei

  [mnp] 5 (Developing). 10,300,000 in China (1984). Population total all countries: 10,304,000.

   

  Chinese, Min Dong

  [cdo] 5 (Developing). 8,820,000 in China (2000). Population total all countries: 9,115,930.

   

  Chinese, Pu-Xian

  [cpx] 5 (Developing). 2,520,000 in China (2000). Population total all countries: 2,558,800.

   

  Chinese, Wu

  [wuu] 5 (Developing). 77,200,000 in China (1984). Population total all countries: 77,202,480.

   

  Level 6a - Vigorous
  Definition - " The language is used for face-to-face communication by all generations and the situation is sustainable "

  Chinese, Gan

  [gan] 6a (Vigorous). 20,600,000 (1984).

   

  Chinese, Huizhou

  [czh] 6a (Vigorous). 4,600,000 (2000 census). Jixi dialect: 988,000; Xiuyi dialect: 861,000; Qide dialect: 798,000; Yanzhou dialect: 638,000; Jingzhan dialect: 134,000.

   

  Chinese, Jinyu

  [cjy] 6a (Vigorous). 45,000,000 (1995).

   

  Chinese, Min Nan

  [nan] 6a (Vigorous). 25,700,000 in China (Johnstone and Mandryk 2001). 3% of the population, including 1,000,000 Xiamen dialect (1988 census), 6,000,000 Quanzhou dialect (Quanzhoushi Fangyan Zhi). Population total all countries: 46,757,560.

   

  Chinese, Min Zhong

  [czo] 6a (Vigorous). 3,100,000 (2000 census).

   

   

  Chinese, Xiang

  [hsn] 6a (Vigorous). 36,000,000 in China (1984). Population total all countries: 36,000,290.

   

  --------------------------

  It seems that only Cantonese (Chinese, Yue) has the most vitality among all the Chinese Languages that it can attain Level 2 (i.e. a Provincial Language), just a step away from Mandarin, the only Chinese Language at Level 1 (i.e. the National Language).

  No Chinese Language are able to claim any position in Level 3 and Level 4. This is due to no Chinese Language other than Mandarin Chinese are allowed to be taught at schools (i.e. Level 4 - an "Educational" Language), and the Chinese Languages are usually not wholly provincial (i.e. Level 3 - a Language for "Wider Communication") enough to facilitate intercommunication within the province.

  --------------------------

  Most Chinese Language falls under Level 5 (i.e. a "Developing" Language) or under Level 6a (i.e. a "Vigorous" Language). In fact, Level 6a is just half-a-step away from Level 6b ("Threatened" Languages = " when the language is used for face-to-face communication within all generations, but it is losing users ") because anything from 6b onwards belongs to the "122 languages are in trouble") as quoted above.

  The Hokkien Language (Chinese, Min Nan) is only to be found in the unfavourable Level 6a, along with "Chinese, Gan", "Chinese, Huizhou", "Chinese, Jinyu", "Chinese, Min Zhong" and "Chinese, Xiang".

  At Level 5, even Hakka (Chinese, Hakka), Hockchiew (Chinese, Min Dong), Henghwa (Chinese, Pu-Xian) and Shanghainese-Suchow (Chinese, Wu) can dominate in a higher position than the Hokkien Language.

   

  This should now show us the fate of Hokkien in China.

   

  --------------------------

   

  A question to ponder: Why that both Cantonese (Chinese, Yue) and Hokkien (Chinese, Min Nan) are both not allowed to be taught in Chinese Schools, but with Cantonese being such a vibrant language still?

  My answer: Without the support of Hong Kong and Macau, Cantonese (Chinese, Yue) would have long relegated to the same fate as Hokkien and other regional languages already. There is an abundant of news regarding Cantonese speakers venting their frustration and sentiments at the Chinese Government for wanting to gradually diminish the popularity of Cantonese, but we would find none of these sentiments among the Hokkien speakers at all.

  
  
• Genie99b

  1 Jan 14, 23:06

  Originally posted by BanguIzai:

   

  A question to ponder: Why that both Cantonese (Chinese, Yue) and Hokkien (Chinese, Min Nan) are both not allowed to be taught in Chinese Schools, but with Cantonese being such a vibrant language still?

  My answer: Without the support of Hong Kong and Macau, Cantonese (Chinese, Yue) would have long relegated to the same fate as Hokkien and other regional languages already. There is an abundant of news regarding Cantonese speakers venting their frustration and sentiments at the Chinese Government for wanting to gradually diminish the popularity of Cantonese, but we would find none of these sentiments among the Hokkien speakers at all.

  
  

  My answer: the 5 heavenly kings of canto pop.....TVB lol

  edit :- gong tor mo wai, sek tor wee zai

• BanguIzai

  2 Jan 14, 02:00

  Originally posted by Genie99b:

  My answer: the 5 heavenly kings of canto pop.....TVB lol

  edit :- gong tor mo wai, sek tor wee zai

    講多無謂，食多胃滯

  Talking too much leads to mundaneness, Eating too much brings about indigestion

• Clivebenss

  2 Jan 14, 12:06

  only a matter of time if they wish to wipe out all the dialects incl Yue.Sg is a damn good example to follow.

  

   

• BanguIzai

  2 Jan 14, 17:58

  Originally posted by Clivebenss:

  only a matter of time if they wish to wipe out all the dialects incl Yue.Sg is a damn good example to follow.

  

   

  Surprising, Ethnologue (2013) still classifies Hokkien in Singapore as Level 3 (Wider Communication):

  Repost of the EGIDS Table of Language Vitality and Endangerment:
                                     EGIDS Scale
  

  Summary for languages in Singapore:
  The number of individual languages listed for Singapore is 24. All are living languages. Of these, 6 are institutional, 6 are developing, 1 is vigorous, 10 are in trouble, and 1 is dying.

  Summary of the Chinese Languages in Singapore:
  Level 3 - Wider Communication
  Definition - " The language is used in work and mass media without official status to transcend language differences across a region. "

  Chinese, Min Nan

  [nan] 3 (Wider communication). 471,000 in Singapore (2000 census). 330,000 speakers of Hokkien and 142,000 of Teochew (2000 census). Ethnic population: 1,720,000, including 1,030,000 Hokkien, 526,000 Teochew, 168,0000 Hainanese (2000 census).

   

  Level 4 - Educational
  Definition - " The language is in vigorous use, with standardization and literature being sustained through a widespread system of institutionally supported education. "

  Chinese, Mandarin

  [cmn] 4 (Educational). Recognized language (1963, Constitution (amended), Article 153A(1)). 1,210,000 in Singapore (2010 census).

   

  Level 5 - Developing
  Definition - " The language is in vigorous use, with literature in a standardized form being used by some though this is not yet widespread or sustainable "

  Chinese, Min Dong

  [cdo] 5 (Developing). 34,200 in Singapore (2000). Ethnic population: 31,400.

   

  Chinese, Pu-Xian

  [cpx] 5 (Developing). 14,100 in Singapore (2000).

   

  Chinese, Yue

  [yue] 5 (Developing). 164,000 in Singapore (2000 census). Ethnic population: 385,630 (2000 census).

   

  Level 6b - Threatened
  Definition - " The language is used for face-to-face communication within all generations, but it is losing users. "

  Chinese, Hakka

  [hak] 6b (Threatened). 69,000 in Singapore (1980). Ethnic population: 199,000 (2000 census).

   

  Chinese, Min Bei

  [mnp] 6b (Threatened). 4,000 in Singapore (1985). Ethnic population: 11,000 in Singapore.

   

   

      Poor Hakka is facing extinction !

   

   

• Clivebenss

  2 Jan 14, 23:32

  It's well known that Hakka is not widely spoken as they tend to converse in Cantonese or Hokkien even in the early days in Malaya and Singapore. Perhaps their small population and hence they were unable to use their language for commerce.

  But truly what level of Hokkien is spoken now in Sg? Some even (eg acid) find it funny rather than fascinating about the language as they are now of very basic understanding of the language esp the dual pronunciation system.

• BanguIzai

  3 Jan 14, 15:52

  Originally posted by Clivebenss:

   

  It's well known that Hakka is not widely spoken as they tend to converse in Cantonese or Hokkien even in the early days in Malaya and Singapore. Perhaps their small population and hence they were unable to use their language for commerce.

  But truly what level of Hokkien is spoken now in Sg? Some even (eg acid) find it funny rather than fascinating about the language as they are now of very basic understanding of the language esp the dual pronunciation system.

  Interpreting the data from above are my few observations below:

  ------------------------------------

  The above data Min Nan includes related languages including Hokkien, Teochew & Hainanese. (2000 census) Out of 1030000 ethnic Hokkiens, 330000 claim to be speakers of Hokkien varieties (32% of ethnic Hokkiens). Out of 526000 ethnic Teochews, 142000 claim to be speakers of Teochew varieties (27% of ethnic Teochews). Out of 168000 ethnic Hainanese (the figure 168,0000 Hainanese isdefinitely an error on the part of Ethnologue), no figure is given for speakers of Hainanese varieties. (2000 census)

  In addition, there are (2000 census) 31400 ethnic Hockchiews+Hockchhias, but speakers of Hockchiew varieties & Hockchhia varieties has a figure of 34200 (109% of ethnic Hockchiew+Hockchhia). There are 14100 ethnic Henghwas, no figures is given for speakers of Henghwa varieties.

  Out of (2000 census) 385630 ethnic Cantonese, 164000 claim to be speakers of Cantonese varieties (43% of ethnic Cantonese). Out of 199000 ethnic Hakkas, 69000 claim to be speakers of Hakka varieties (35% of ethnic Hakkas).

  Min Bei (=those coming from the prefectures of JianOu+JianYang) are left out in my comparison as they are in absolute minority and no real speakers are to be found now.

  ------------------------------------

  In terms of percentages of one's own ethnic group, Cantonese at 43% (Number 1) has the highest numbers still speaking Cantonese. Followed by Hakka 35% (Number 2), Hokkien 32% (Number 3), Teochew 27% (Number 4). The figures for Hainanese and Henghwa are not reflected, thus are left out of comparison.

  However, the numbers for Hockchiew+Hockcchia having a figure of 109% speakers relative to it's own ethnic population, which I shall proclaim that is very doubtful.
  1) It could be a sincere mistake on the part of Ethnologue, or
  2) Maybe if I take into consideration the influx of quite a number of new immigrants of Fujian descent especially from Fuzhou Prefecture, Putian+Xianyou Prefecture, then I can believe that it could be true to some extent, however it exist only as a household language.

  ------------------------------------

  However from the absolute numbers, Hokkien at 330000 speakers (Number 1) has the highest numbers of speakers. Followed by Cantonese 164000 speakers (Number 2), Teochew 142000 speakers (Number 3), Hakka 69000 speakers (Number 4). The figures for Hainanese and Henghua are not reflected, thus are left out of comparison.

  ------------------------------------

  From the sociolinguistics point of view, currently the Hokkien Language is recognized as the most popular, de-facto language/dialect for intercommunication. This is due to it's strong absolute number of 330000.

  On top of that, the 70% similar sibling, Teochew Language plays a big role in boosting the number of Hokkien speakers because they converse with the Hokkien population using their not-so-pure but 70% similarity to Hokkien.

  Another related sibling language, Hainanese, which is 50% related to Hokkien and Teochew, further boost the numbers for the intercommunication language with the Hokkiens and Teochews.

  In total, if 330000 ethnic Hokkiens + 142000 Teochews who can easily speak Hokkien + any remaining Hainanese speakers who usually speak Hokkien as a intercommunal language, Hokkien will have the highest numbers of popular speakers as compared to other languages such as Cantonese and Hakka, which similar among themselves but is very different from Hokkien, Teochew & Hainanese.

  Even the almost all Henghua speakers currently speak a form of Henghuaized Hokkien. From historical comparison, Henghua's nearest sibling language is also Hokkien (especially Quanzhou Hokkien).

  However, the higher percentage of Cantonese (43% of ethnic Cantonese) shows that Cantonese is more successful at establishing itself as a "Home" language and the chances of passing down the language in a family is more successful than either Hokkien and Teochew.

  The same applies to Hakka (35% of ethnic Hakka) which shows Hakka is a more successful "Home" language.

  Hokkien depended on its absolute majority in numbers over Cantonese to be able to cling the position as a "Language of Wider Communication". On top of that, sibling languages such as Teochew and Hainanese switch easily to Hokkien for intercommunication.

  This contributes to the situation that only Hokkien could be able to facilitate as "the strong" intercommuncal language in Singapore among the Hokkien, Teochew, Hainanese, Cantonese, Hakka and Henghua people.

  ------------------------------------

  From my above observations, I have to strongly agree with you that most Singaporeans now only have a very basic understanding of the language because due to the nature of Hokkien being popularized as a common language among all Chinese groups in Singapore, therefore the pronunciation, vocabulary as well as grammar of Hokkien is rather simplified just for the sake of intercommunication.

• iLoveForums

  3 Jan 14, 16:58

  

• Clivebenss

  5 Jan 14, 14:59

  with Hokkien understanding thinning out it can easily be replaced by mandarin that the authority like to impose.

• BanguIzai

  6 Jan 14, 03:07

   

  Originally posted by Clivebenss:

  with Hokkien understanding thinning out it can easily be replaced by mandarin that the authority like to impose.

   

  In this Youtube clip at 2m:13s, http://youtu.be/os5MA6jA2wc?t=2m13s, this Gaelic elder forsees the future of the Gaelic language,

  " Well, Gaelic will survive.. Something will survive. But eh... the wealth of the language won't survive. "

  (Gaelic is some sort of Irish language spoken by the Irish people before the government imposed English on the Irish speakers and resulted in most Irish people shifting to the English language... Irish is now only spoken by the elderly and in general youngsters communicate in broken Gaelic)

  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

  I feel the same for Hokkien.

  Somehow, Hokkien will survive. Something will survive. But the wealth of the language won't survive.

  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

   

  As Hokkien had been popularized as the intercommunal language, it had to greatly reduce its complexity (in terms of its nuances and its intricacies) to cater to communication.

  To recognize and strengthen our awareness of the Hokkien Language in order for preservation, our first step is to be aware that many people have already mixed up some of the original Hokkien usage over the times (for the better or for the worse, for you to decide).

   

   

       ( Penghulu, I hope that you could add on to my list below: )

   

  --------------------

  1)      Tsh'iaN è«‹ (Yin-Shang Hokkien Tone) and Tsh'iaN å€© (Yin-Qu Hokkien Tone). I have mentioned this in my post in front of this thread. Even though the 2 words sound very similar, they convey some difference in meaning in Hokkien. Tsh'iaN è«‹ is used for "invite" or "apply for" whereas Tsh'iaN å€© is used for "to employ". Thus a potential employee can only use Tsh'iaN è«‹ for his job application, while an employer can only use Tsh'iaN å€© to mean "hiring an employee".

          In Singaporean Mandarin, è«‹ Qing is used by both employee and employer to mean both "apply for" and "hiring an employee". (Only some people use 僱 to mean "hiring")

          Therefore Hokkien has the ability to differentiate the fine difference that Mandarin cannot convey.

          But people speaking the new "corrupted" Hokkien follows the Mandarin usage and use Tsh'iaN è«‹ for both situations now.

   

  -------------------- 

  2)      Tsh'in å‡Š and KuaN å¯’. In Hokkien, there is a clear demarcation between usage for these 2 words. Tsh'in å‡Š refers to "cold" atmosphere, temperature, things. (飯凊了, å‡Šå¿ƒ, å‡Šæ°´, æˆ¿é–“真凊 Pang Keng Tsin Tsh'in). While KuaN å¯’ refers to feeling "cold" in your body. (我真寒 Wa Tsin KuaN).

          In Singaporean Mandarin, 冷 Leng is used to mean both "cold" temperature and feeling "cold".

          Therefore Hokkien can convey these nuances accurately.

          But people speaking the new "corrupted" Hokkien follows the Mandarin usage and use Leng å†· for all situations now. (飯冷了, 心冷冷, 冷水, 房間真冷 Pang Keng Tsin Leng, 我真冷 Wa Tsin Leng)

          Take note that even the Japanese Language can differentiate between "cold" used for things and "cold" used for persons. ("冷ã�Ÿã�„ tsumetai" VS "寒ã�„ samui")

   

  -------------------- 

  3)      HiaN ç‡ƒ and Tsu ç…®. In Hokkien, HiaN ç‡ƒ should be used for "boiling", "heating up". (燃燒水, 燃綠豆湯). While Tsu ç…® is used for "cooking". (煮飯, 煮食).

          In Singaporean Mandarin, ç…® Zhu is used to mean both "boiling" and "cooking".

          Therefore Hokkien as a standalone system can differentiate clearly in this respect to Mandarin.

           But people speaking the new "corrupted" Hokkien follows the Mandarin usage and use Tsu ç…® for all situations now. (煮燒水, 煮綠豆湯, 煮飯, 煮食)

   

  --------------------

  4)      Lio èº¼ and KuaiN æ‡¸. In Hokkien, Lio èº¼ refers to "tall" in terms of measurements of persons. (伊真躼 Yi Tsin Lio). While KuaiN æ‡¸ refers to "tall" measurements of things and places. (åŽ�真懸 Tsh'u Tsin KuaiN).

          In Singaporean Mandarin, 高 Gao is used to mean both "tall" person and "tall" things and places.

          Therefore Hokkien as the more evolved language, kept the nuances.

          But people speaking the new "corrupted" Hokkien follows the Mandarin usage and use KuaiN æ‡¸ for all situations now. (伊真懸 Yi Tsin KuaiN, åŽ�真懸 Tsh'u Tsin KuaiN).

   

  --------------------

  5)      Pun and Tsh'ue å�¹. In Hokkien, Pun is used when living things act in terms of "blowing" into something or towards something. (Punæ°£ç�ƒ Pun Kh'i Kiu, Pun風 Pun Hong, Punå“Žå•Š Pun Ai A). While Tsh'ue å�¹ is used when non-living things performs the action "blowing". (大風å�¹ Tua Hong Tsh'ue, å�¹é¢¨æ‰‡ Tsh'ue Hong SiN).

          In Singaporean Mandarin, å�¹ Chui is used to mean both living things "to blow" and non-living things "to blow".

          Therefore Hokkien IS a language with a different set of worldview from Mandarin, in that Hokkien has separate vocabulary for living things and non-living things (SEE ABOVE: Living Things uses 寒 for "cold", Non-Living Things uses 凊 for "cold" // Living Things uses 躼 for "tall", Non-Living Things uses 懸 for "tall" // Living Things uses Pun for "blow", Non-Living Things uses å�¹ for "blow)

          But some people speaking the new "corrupted" Hokkien follows the Mandarin usage and use Tsh'ue å�¹ for all circumstances. (å�¹æ°£ç�ƒ Tsh'ue Kh'i Kiu, å�¹é¢¨ Tsh'ue Hong)

   

  --------------------

  6)      PuaN æ�¬ and WaN æ�›. In Hokkien, PuaN Tsh'ia æ�¬è»Š refers to "transfer bus" while WaN Tsh'ia æ�›è»Š refers to "changing a vehicle".

          In Singaporean Mandarin, æ�›è»Š or 轉車 is used to mean "transfer bus".

          Therefore people who speak the new "corrupted" Hokkien follows the Mandarin usage and use WaN Tsh'ia æ�›è»Š or Tsuan Tsh'ia è½‰è»Š to refer to "transfer bus".

   

  --------------------

  7)      PuaN æ�¬ and Tso å�š. In Hokkien, PuaN Hi æ�¬æˆ² refers to "acting out a show" while Tso Hi å�šæˆ² refers to "making a show".

          In Singaporean Mandarin, å�šæˆ² or 演戲 is used to mean "acting out a show".

          Therefore people who speak the new "corrupted" Hokkien follows the Mandarin usage and use Tso Hi å�šæˆ² to refer to "acting out a show".

   

  --------------------

  8)      Nih å›� and Siam é–ƒ. In Hokkien, Nih å›� is strictly used for lights "blinking" as well as eyes "blinking". (å›�車ç�« Nih Tsh'ia He, é�’ç´…ç�«ç„¡å›� Tsh'iN Ang He Bo Nih, ç›®ç� ç›´ç›´å›� Bak Tsiu Tit Tit Nih). Siam é–ƒ does not possess the meaning of "blinking".

          In Singaporean Mandarin, é–ƒ Shan is used to mean lights "blinking" while 眨 Zha is used to mean eyes "blinking".

          Therefore people who speak the new "corrupted" Hokkien follows the Mandarin usage and use Siam é–ƒ or Tsah çœ¨ to refer to lights "blinking" or eyes "blinking". (眨車ç�« Tsah Tsh'ia He, é�’ç´…ç�«ç„¡é–ƒ Tsh'iN Ang He Bo Siam, ç›®ç� ç›´ç›´çœ¨ Bak Tsiu Tit Tit Tsah).

   

  --------------------

  9)      Kim ç¦� and KuiN é—œ. In Hokkien, Kim ç¦� should be used for "turning off", "switching off". (ç¦�電視機 Kim Tien Si Ki, ç¦�æ°´é¾�é ­ Kim Tsui Leng Th'au, ç¦�手電Kim Tsh'iu Tien, ç¦�é›»ç�« Kim Tien He). While KuiN é—œ should be used for "closing". (關門 KuiN Mng, 關店 KuiN Tiam).

          In Singaporean Mandarin, é—œ Guan is used to mean both "turning off", "switching off" as well as the act of "closing".

          Therefore people who speak the new "corrupted" Hokkien follows the Mandarin convention and use KuiN é—œ for all situations now. (關電視機 KuiN Tien Si Ki, é—œæ°´é¾�é ­KuiN Tsui Leng Th'au, é—œç‡ˆ KuiN Teng, 關門 KuiN Mng, 關店 KuiN Tiam).

   

  --------------------

  10)   Ngiau èŸ¯ and TsiuN ç™¢. In Hokkien, Ngiau èŸ¯ should be used for "ticklish". While TsiuN ç™¢ should be used for "itchy".

          In Singaporean Mandarin, 癢 Yang is used to mean both "ticklish" as well as "itchy".

          Therefore people who speak the new "corrupted" Hokkien follows the Mandarin convention and use TsiuN ç™¢ for all situations now.

          Take note that even the Malay Language can differentiate between "ticklish" and "itchy". ("miang" VS "gatal")

   

  --------------------

      While some other notable ones include: 

  • â—� the confusion between Heng é‚„ "return" and Hor èˆ‡ "give" by a lotta S'poreans
  • â—� loss of authentic commonplace Hokkien vocab such as Hor Mua é›¨å¹” "raincoat" and Ke Tsi è�“å­� "fruits" and the productive -SiaN è�² suffix endings

   

   

  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

  Clearly, Hokkien is a separate, standalone language by itself with its own unique history and rich cultural heritage.

  It does not have much to do with Mandarin, which is the external foreign dialect which was brought in by the Northerners which doesn't represent the mother tongue of the Hokkien people whether in any place or at any time.

  As a separate lineage of its own, we have to value the wealth of the language. If not, Hokkien will only survive. However, the wealth of the language won't survive.

   

  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

• Clivebenss

  6 Jan 14, 05:26

  bang, you need to understand mandarin before explaining. Mandarin is not exactly a dialect but a borrow language from Japan. That explain why the shortage of expression of the language as compare to dialects that inherit part of  the old language of the 5000yrs of culture.

  

• BanguIzai

  8 Jan 14, 05:13

  Originally posted by Clivebenss:

  bang, you need to understand mandarin before explaining. Mandarin is not exactly a dialect but a borrow language from Japan. That explain why the shortage of expression of the language as compare to dialects that inherit part of  the old language of the 5000yrs of culture.

  

  My topic with respect to "Shortage of Expression of the Language" shall be discussed:

   

  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

  Due to "expression of the language" being a broad topic which covers morphology, semantics, syntax, pragmatics, discourse, I need to restrict this discussion mainly to syntax, verbs only (see above: 7 verbs discussed: 1)請倩3)燃煮5)Punå�¹6)æ�¬æ�›7)æ�¬å�š8)å›�é–ƒ9)ç¦�é—œ, while 3 adjectives discussed: 2)凊寒4)躼懸10)蟯癢) 

   

  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

        It is written in Wikipedia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_writing_system#Kanji, (Japanese Writing System - "1.1 Kanji" sub-heading),

  that:

  Some Japanese words are written with different kanji depending on the specific usage of the word—for instance, the word naosu (to fix, or to cure) is written æ²»ã�™ when it refers to curing a person, and ç›´ã�™ when it refers to fixing an object.

   

  Indeed. Other than naosu æ²»ã�™ and naosu ç›´ã�™, in fact a quick look into the Japanese Language will show us some of the very basic words having the same etymological basis:

  1) naosu
      naosu ç›´ã�™ - "to fix"
      naosu æ²»ã�™ - "to treat"
  Both derive from base meaning of naosu: "to make something bad into good"

  2) yomu
      yomu 読む - "to read"
      yomu è© ã‚€ - "to recite"
  Both derive from base meaning of yomu: "to use the mouth to produce sounds from the words"

  3) kaku
      kaku 書ã�� - "to write"
      kaku æ��ã�� - "to draw"
  Both derive from base meaning of kaku: "to use the brush to produce ink marks"

  4) tobu
      tobu 飛ã�¶ - "to fly"
      tobu è·³ã�¶ - "to jump"
  Both derive from base meaning of tobu: "an action of leaping into the air"

  5) naku
      naku æ³£ã�� - "to cry"
      naku é³´ã�� - "to bark, meow, bellow, neigh, gibber, squeak, crow, cackle, honk, ring"
  Both derive from base meaning of naku: "to make a sound"

  6) nomu
      nomu 飲む - "to drink"
      nomu å‘‘ã‚€ - "to swallow"
  Both derive from base meaning of nomu: "to put something through the throat"

  7) tatsu
       tatsu ç«‹ã�¤ - "to stand up"
       tatsu 建ã�¤ - "to build"
  Both derive from base meaning of tatsu: "to raise something up into a higher state"

  8) saku
      saku å’²ã�� - "to bloom"
      saku 裂ã�� - "to split"
  Both derive from base meaning of saku: "an act of splitting apart"

  9) eru
      eru å¾—ã‚‹ - "to get"
      eru ç�²ã‚‹ - "to nab"
  Both derive from base meaning of eru: "to get hold of"

  10) osu
        osu 押ã�™ - "to press"
        osu 推ã�™ - "to derive"
  Both derive from base meaning of osu: "to push at something"

  11) hiku
        hiku 引ã�� - "to pull"
        hiku å¼¾ã�� - "to play a stringed instrument"
  Both derive from base meaning of hiku: "to make a pulling action"

  12) utsu
        utsu 打ã�¤ - "to strike a blow"
        utsu æ’ƒã�¤ - "to shoot with a weapon"
  Both derive from base meaning of utsu: "to hit with something"

  13) kaeru
        kaeru 帰る - "to return home"
        kaeru 返る - "to return something"
  Both derive from base meaning of kaeru: "to return"

  14) noboru
        noboru 登る - "to climb up (eg. a mountain)"
        noboru 昇る - "to rise (eg. rising sun)"
  Both derive from base meaning of noboru: "action of rising to a higher point"

  15) shirusu
        shirusu å�°ã�™ - "to make a marking"
        shirusu 記ã�™ - "to record down something"
  Both derive from base meaning of shirusu: "to do something for future retrieval"

  16) noberu
         noberu 延ã�¹ã‚‹ - "to extend"
         noberu è¿°ã�¹ã‚‹ - "to narrate"
  Both derive from base meaning of noberu: "to make something longer"

  17) yameru
         yameru æ­¢ã‚�ã‚‹ - "to stop it"
         yameru 辞ã‚�ã‚‹ - "to resign from"
  Both derive from base meaning of yameru: "to end the process"

  18) wakareru
         wakareru 分ã�‹ã‚Œã‚‹ - "to differentiate"
         wakareru 別ã�‹ã‚Œã‚‹ - "to part ways"
  Both derive from base meaning of wakareru: "to split"

  19) hanareru
        hanareru 放れる - "to escape"
        hanareru 離れる - "to break apart"
  Both derive from base meaning of hanareru: "to split"
  

  20) Same derivations for:
         agaru (上ã�Œã‚‹) (挙ã�Œã‚‹) (æ�šã�Œã‚‹)
         oriru (下りる) (é™�ã‚Šã‚‹)
         tsuku (付ã��) (ç�€ã��) (点ã��) (çª�ã��)
         moto (本) (å…ƒ) (基) (下)

        any many other roots etc

   

  Before the introduction of Chinese characters to the Japanese, the above pair of words were not differentiated in writing. Hence the Japanese mostly used the root words without much differentiation in their mind. It was only after the introduction of Chinese characters that the Japanese adopted the Chinese mindset to separate the above pair of words in writing. However, in reality, when spoken, they are still the same root words.

   

  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

  Therefore, I have to agree with you it is true to some extent that the "shortage of expression of the language" (with relation to verbs) is a trend in both Mandarin as well as in Japanese.

   

  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

  However, because on hand, with scanty evidence, I cannot provide any stronger proof other than these superficial similarities and therefore I had refrained myself from making the statement that "Mandarin is a borrow language from Japan*".
          *(other than the well known fact that Mandarin had truly been borrowing (>*stealing) from the Japanese a vast number of Sino-Japonic vocabularly within this past 100 years).

  The best conclusion thus far I could make of the similarities in poverty of the verb structures of these 2 languages could be best explained as coming from the influence of a "Pan-Northern Asian Cultural Sphere".

   

  * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

• Clivebenss

  12 Jan 14, 19:23

  Thanks for the clarification. It seems the southern languages are more descriptive than the northern languages which I have not much knowledge. I know many assume mandarin is Beijing language but what I remembered in Beijing operas was very different from mandarin. I'm no linguist but it will be sad if so many language is simplified to a lower form just for intercommunication.