Speaking dialect has its uses
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Originally posted by Veggie Bao:
The question is.....what to do with this situation...
I believe nothing much can be done.
Due to the fact that it is difficult to implement language teaching for different dialect groups (imagine if classrooms need to be separated into many groups), and also due to the fact that Singapore is a compact, tiny, highly densely populated and diverse city. So there is not enough critical mass for each dialect group to flourish and be envigorated. They are spread thinly and are always in contact with other speakers.
If you think dialect deterioration is bad.........actually the whole language situation is bad....
Mandarin is also deteriorating.....
Ask those people who are 1 generation above you....
Most likely they have better command of Mandarin than your present generation.
Mandarin is deteriorating all the time.
English seems to take primary dominant position gradually.
However even this situation is not good, because the majority of English speakers in Singapore are not speaking English properly. Either they have heavy accent or they use Singlish.
There should be different schools based on different dialects.
It's not like you would attend just a class on your dialect, it is the whole school having it's curriculum and teaching in dialect.
That is the model of indigenous language teaching in countries that support the indigenous languages.
Not just classes.
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all languages are weakening and standards declining.
malay, tamil, mandarin, dialects, everything.
The entire language education system is a total failure.
Lee Kuan Yew himself is a cultureless person, that is why the entire culture of the whole society is being destroyed and weakened.
When the head is rotten, it affects the whole body.
He is nothing but the filth of society.
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
There should be different schools based on different dialects.
It's not like you would attend just a class on your dialect, it is the whole school having it's curriculum and teaching in dialect.
That is the model of indigenous language teaching in countries that support the indigenous languages.
Not just classes.
perhaps one should not view dialects as a subject in school. It should be a heritage for a family. If one choose to forgo the root, then what more can others do?
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opposition parties should take up this issue in elections.
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Originally posted by Vote PAP OUT to Save SG:
opposition parties should take up this issue in elections.
if there is interest.
wonder if anyone will campaign this election in dialects to win the seniors votes.
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Originally posted by Clivebenss:
if there is interest.
wonder if anyone will campaign this election in dialects to win the seniors votes.
they should send a suicide squad and attack the bastard straight on in tanjong pagar.
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Originally posted by Vote PAP OUT to Save SG:
they should send a suicide squad and attack the bastard straight on in tanjong pagar.
those old chaps from DPP that will be contesting Tg Pagar are good dialect speakers.
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Originally posted by Clivebenss:
those old chaps from DPP that will be contesting Tg Pagar are good dialect speakers.
the old Tan Lark Sye party?
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Originally posted by Vote PAP OUT to Save SG:
the old Tan Lark Sye party?
nope, ex-Barisan.
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
There should be different schools based on different dialects.
It's not like you would attend just a class on your dialect, it is the whole school having it's curriculum and teaching in dialect.
That is the model of indigenous language teaching in countries that support the indigenous languages.
Not just classes.
Actually is that going to be good or not good ?
I do not feel comfortable if that is the direction.
Dialect happens because in the past when transportation and communication is less advanced, people in one certain area would develop its own local language and customs etc.
Now as technology advance and the human mobility is highly improved, there is more and more contact and interactions between different peoples.
We are talking that in China itself there is great mobility and "strandardization" in language.
What about Singapore ?
Singapore is a very little place.
Singapore is very compact, tiny, densely populated, diverse, city.
I think another issue is also about internal Chinese unity and identity.
If there are schools based on dialects, that is retrogressive because it is bringing up again the situation in the past, where transportation and communication is less advanced, and that there were different blocks or groups of speakers.
In other words, it re-introduce and re-emphasize division.
I believe Singapore and especially Singaporean Chinese, which do not number that much, and has to live amongst other cultures, do not need to separate and divide themselves.
Of course, the primary motive and desire to do so, is to continue a heritage, to preserve something and to conserve something, something that is intimate and personal and precious.
I can understand that.
However I take the view that the present generation must take the sacrifice.
The present generation is the transitionary generation.
It depends now, does the present generation want to be nostalgic, and take a one step forward, two step back approach, or complete the process of standardization and unification, for the benefit of internal Chinese unity and identification.
For me I myself am also nostalgic about my dialect group. However I think it is not nice if we undo the great melting pot process of Chinese unification by reintroducing dialects. Just from the big picture, cultural aspect, I feel it is a kind of suicide and a kind of counter-productive thing to do.
Secondly we need to understand Singapore is not China. Singapore is not Taiwan, is not HongKong.
Singapore is a very far away place from the real ancestral cultural root of Singaporean Chinese in East Asia. It is located deep in South East Asia. Here there are many other cultures, and lots of immigrants and expats too. It is also heavily under the cultural influence of the Western culture and the English language.
Under such circumstances, it is simply impractical and impossible to have the luxury of reintroducing dialects.
If we understand something, actually the whole "cultural heritage" aspect of the people living in Singapore, is under heavy assault everyday from English / Western culture and also other component cultures. This is the basic fundamental setup of Singapore. If the Chinese Singaporeans should decide to separate and divide themselves by reintroducing dialects, it is very bad and is very messy, and is suicidal, because you further weaken yourself, in an already complex and complicated situation.
The others in HK and TW can do it because they have the relative critical mass.
We must understand what is Singapore and what can or cannot be done for Singapore.
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Originally posted by Veggie Bao:
Actually is that going to be good or not good ?
I do not feel comfortable if that is the direction.
Dialect happens because in the past when transportation and communication is less advanced, people in one certain area would develop its own local language and customs etc.
Now as technology advance and the human mobility is highly improved, there is more and more contact and interactions between different peoples.
We are talking that in China itself there is great mobility and "strandardization" in language.
What about Singapore ?
Singapore is a very little place.
Singapore is very compact, tiny, densely populated, diverse, city.
I think another issue is also about internal Chinese unity and identity.
If there are schools based on dialects, that is retrogressive because it is bringing up again the situation in the past, where transportation and communication is less advanced, and that there were different blocks or groups of speakers.
In other words, it re-introduce and re-emphasize division.
I believe Singapore and especially Singaporean Chinese, which do not number that much, and has to live amongst other cultures, do not need to separate and divide themselves.
Of course, the primary motive and desire to do so, is to continue a heritage, to preserve something and to conserve something, something that is intimate and personal and precious.
I can understand that.
However I take the view that the present generation must take the sacrifice.
The present generation is the transitionary generation.
It depends now, does the present generation want to be nostalgic, and take a one step forward, two step back approach, or complete the process of standardization and unification, for the benefit of internal Chinese unity and identification.
For me I myself am also nostalgic about my dialect group. However I think it is not nice if we undo the great melting pot process of Chinese unification by reintroducing dialects. Just from the big picture, cultural aspect, I feel it is a kind of suicide and a kind of counter-productive thing to do.
Secondly we need to understand Singapore is not China. Singapore is not Taiwan, is not HongKong.
Singapore is a very far away place from the real ancestral cultural root of Singaporean Chinese in East Asia. It is located deep in South East Asia. Here there are many other cultures, and lots of immigrants and expats too. It is also heavily under the cultural influence of the Western culture and the English language.
Under such circumstances, it is simply impractical and impossible to have the luxury of reintroducing dialects.
If we understand something, actually the whole "cultural heritage" aspect of the people living in Singapore, is under heavy assault everyday from English / Western culture and also other component cultures. This is the basic fundamental setup of Singapore. If the Chinese Singaporeans should decide to separate and divide themselves by reintroducing dialects, it is very bad and is very messy, and is suicidal, because you further weaken yourself.
The others in HK and TW can do it because they have the relative critical mass.
We must understand what is Singapore and what can or cannot be done for Singapore.
Is dialects bad? I don't think so. Any language or dialect is a additional advantage.
Besides dialect is where one's root is, once lost many indigenous expressions and culture will be lost too.
Mandarin is actually a simplified language for mass education for the illiterate then; don't think it have the rich cultural and expressions that dialect can amplified.
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traditional hand puppetry is already dead in singapore.............i would love to see getais going back to doing operas...
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Originally posted by Clivebenss:
Is dialects bad? I don't think so. Any language or dialect is a additional advantage.
Besides dialect is where one's root is, once lost many indigenous expressions and culture will be lost too.
Mandarin is actually a simplified language for mass education for the illiterate then; don't think it have the rich cultural and expressions that dialect can amplified.
Dialect can indeed be an additonal knowledge and advantage. Especially since it contains indigenous expressions and culture.
However this comes back again at the very heart, and fundamental question, of what is the aim and the overall goal of cultural preservation and cultural identity.
For instance, there is a trade-off.
The more Chinese Singaporeans learn Mandarin, the less dialect mastery will be attained.
This is a trade-off.
But do we see the other side of the ledger.
It promotes and encourage better unification among Chinese groups.
I am of the view that this is a better attainment and is a more beneficial result.
My concern is that, if dialect is promoted or re-envigorated, or formally thought in schools, my concern is that it will create some sort of division or sense of separation.
Again, this is different in the case of HK or TW.
They have the critical mass and the relative homogeneity.
Even in those cases, actually if we understand, they have formed their own "block" or separation or division, because indeed, they are not in 1 socio-political entity together with the PRC, they are not together with lots of other Chinese speakers. They are in their own exclusive corners.
Now in Singapore is that possible and feasible ?
My main concern is simply the fear of division, and the fear that in complex and complicated Singaporean situation, it is actually going to be counter-productive and create a disserve towards cultural preservation of any kind.
I am of the view that the younger Chinese Singaporean generation, of the present generation, must complete the transition and be strong enough to complete it.
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Originally posted by The man who was death:
traditional hand puppetry is already dead in singapore.............i would love to see getais going back to doing operas...
and " Ch'ar T'au Kar Leh " too
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Originally posted by Veggie Bao:
Dialect can indeed be an additonal knowledge and advantage. Especially since it contains indigenous expressions and culture.
However this comes back again at the very heart, and fundamental question, of what is the aim and the overall goal of cultural preservation and cultural identity.
For instance, there is a trade-off.
The more Chinese Singaporeans learn Mandarin, the less dialect mastery will be attained.
This is a trade-off.
But do we see the other side of the ledger.
It promotes and encourage better unification among Chinese groups.
I am of the view that this is a better attainment and is a more beneficial result.
My concern is that, if dialect is promoted or re-envigorated, or formally thought in schools, my concern is that it will create some sort of division or sense of separation.
Again, this is different in the case of HK or TW.
They have the critical mass and the relative homogeneity.
Even in those cases, actually if we understand, they have formed their own "block" or separation or division, because indeed, they are not in 1 socio-political entity together with the PRC, they are not together with lots of other Chinese speakers. They are in their own exclusive corners.
Now in Singapore is that possible and feasible ?
My main concern is simply the fear of division, and the fear that in complex and complicated Singaporean situation, it is actually going to be counter-productive and create a disserve towards cultural preservation of any kind.
I am of the view that the younger Chinese Singaporean generation, of the present generation, must complete the transition and be strong enough to complete it.
your choice.
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I want to use 2 articles from Canada relating to the current situation of the Inuit dialects (specifically the Inuktitut dialect) that are spoken by the Inuit natives (or commonly referred as Eskimo people). I hope it can serve as a reflection to the dialects in Singapore (eg. let me use Hokkien to substitute the Inuktitut language for example) and hope we can learn from their experiences:
http://www.sikunews.com/News/Canada-Nunavut/Help-Inuktitut-2113
http://www.sikunews.com/News/Canada-Nunavut/1508(i quote to show where I find striking parallelisms and substitutes to our local context in bold)
-- 1.
Inuktitut will never become the territorial governmentÂ’s working language unless NunavutÂ’s high school students can study in Inuktitut, says a new report by Louis-Jacques Dorais of Université Laval in Quebec City.
Hokkien will never become our working language unless Singapore high school students can study in Hokkien, says a new report by .....
-- 2.
If students don’t study in Inuktitut beyond Grades 3 or 4, it will never be possible “to give Inuktitut its proper place in Nunavut,” says Dorais, who speaks several Inuktitut dialects and Greenlandic fluently.
If students don’t study in Hokkien beyond Grades 3 or 4, it will never be possible “to give Hokkien its proper place in Singapore,” says ..., who speaks several Chinese dialects and Hokkien fluently.
-- 3.
“It will, for sure, continue to be spoken for some decades, at least outside of Iqaluit, but its use risks being increasingly limited to petty topics, on the one hand, and highly symbolic domains (traditional life, political discourse, religious ceremonies) on the other.”
“It will, for sure, continue to be spoken for some decades, at least outside of ..., but its use risks being increasingly limited to petty topics, on the one hand, and highly symbolic domains (traditional life, political discourse, religious ceremonies) on the other.”
-- 4.
Dorais says that within 10 or 15 years, Iqaluit may well become like Cambridge Bay, where only a massive educational effort might be able revive the Innuinaqtun dialect.
... says that within 10 or 15 years, ... may well become like ..., where only a *massive educational effort* might be able revive the Hokkien dialect.
-- 5.
Dorais says Inuktitut will never become NunavutÂ’s working language unless the Government of Nunavut:
* Reaffirms its commitment to making Inuktitut the GNÂ’s working language by 2020;
* Creates a strong model for bilingual education;
* Determines where and how Inuktitut and English should be used;
* Trains more Inuktitut teachers, with a target of 85 per cent for 2020.... says Hokkien will never become Singapore's working language unless the Government of Singapore:
* Reaffirms its commitment to making Hokkien the working language by 2020;
* Creates a strong model for bilingual education;
* Determines where and how Hokkien and English should be used;
* Trains more Hokkien teachers, with a target of 85 per cent for 2020.-- 6.
DoraisÂ’s research attributes InuktitutÂ’s decline partially to the lack of a common dialect, which means Inuit often use English to communicate with each other in Iqaluit.
... research attributes Hokkien's decline partially to the lack of a common dialect (among Singaporean Chinese), which means Chinese often use English/Mandarin to communicate with each other in Singapore.
-- 7.
English also dominates because itÂ’s needed in the job market, itÂ’s the vehicle of popular culture, and most contacts with Qallunaat occur in English.
English also dominates because itÂ’s needed in the job market, itÂ’s the vehicle of popular culture, and most contacts with the outside world occur in English.
-- 8.
Despite its increasing symbolic and political value, Inuktitut seems to be in decline in Iqaluit homes,” Dorais says. “A majority of younger parents speak English to their kids or speak both languages.”
Despite its increasing symbolic and political value, Hokkien seems to be in decline in Hokkienese homes,” ... says. “A majority of younger parents speak English to their kids or speak both languages.”
-- 9.
The idea that you have to speak good Inuktitut or speak a common dialect of Inuktitut isn’t helping. “It may be better to speak a simplified version of Inuktitut than no Inuktitut at all,” Dorais says.
The idea that you have to speak good Hokkien or speak a common dialect of Min-dialects isn’t helping. “It may be better to speak a simplified version of Hokkien than no Hokkien at all,” Dorais says.
-- 10.
As for expressing emotions or political speech, English is considered more direct and more transparent in its meaning, while Inuktitut is recognized as less direct and better for talking about culture.
As for expressing emotions or political speech, English is considered more direct and more transparent in its meaning, while Hokkien is recognized as less direct and better for talking about culture.
-- 11.
Middle-aged Inuit appear to be at the “core of transition” towards full bilingualism in Iqaluit.
Middle-aged Hokkienese appear to be at the “core of transition” towards full bilingualism in Singapore.
-- 12.
Even so, younger people told Dorais they think their grandchildren will be speaking Inuktitut.
Even so, younger people told ... they think their grandchildren will (not) be speaking Hokkien.
-- 13.
Younger individuals (who, for the most part, do not have grandchildren yet) give an idealistic answer, because they are conscious of the part played by language in asserting Inuit identity.”
Younger individuals (who, for the most part, do not have grandchildren yet) give an idealistic answer, because they are conscious of the part played by language in asserting Hokkien identity.”
-- 14.
But older people aren’t so optimistic about the future of Inuktitut: “when looking at my youngest child and at my grandchild, I know they will hardly be able to talk in Inuktitut, I think they will not be able to read and write in Inuktitut.”
*** But older people aren’t so optimistic about the future of Hokkien: “when looking at my youngest child and at my grandchild, I know they will ** HARDLY ** be able to talk in Hokkien, I think they will ** NOT ** be able to read and write in Hokkien.” ***
-- 15.
And all language professionals doubt the GN can reach its goal of making Inuktitut the working language by 2020. One said “when the government has to set special days aside to celebrate things like language and culture, it is the surest proof that these things are dying.”
And all language professionals doubt Singapore can reach its goal of making Hokkien the working language by 2020. One said “when the government has to set special days aside to celebrate things like language and culture, it is the surest proof that these things are dying.”
-- 16.
Many told Dorais they want the GN and Nunavut Tunngavik Inc. to invest money in Inuktitut programs, although others said the responsibility for language teaching lies first and foremost in the home.
Many told ... they want the Singapore Government and Language Department / MOE to invest money in Hokkien programs, although others said the responsibility for language teaching lies first and foremost in the home.
-- 17.
Research by linguists Louis Jacques Dorais and Susan Sammons predicts that by 2020, Inuktitut will survive, but in a badly-weakened state, reports the Nunatsiaq News.
Research by linguists ... and ... predicts that by 2020, Hokkien will survive, but in a badly-weakened state, reports the ....
-- 18.
That's because growing numbers of young Inuit in these two regions of Canada prefer to use English, for ease of communication.
That's because growing numbers of young Hokkiens in these Singapore prefer to use English, for ease of communication.
-- 19.
Their research shows the principal language of communication for Inuit under 30 who live in Iqaluit is already English, even if most can speak Inuktitut with some fluency.
Their research shows the principal language of communication for Hokkiens under 30 who live in Singapore is already English, even if most can speak Hokkien with some fluency.
-- 20.
"For them, their native language is part of their identity, and it must be transmitted to children. Many people, young or old, believe that one of the principal reasons for having established Nunavut is to protect Inuit language and culture," Dorais said. "The Government of Nunavut should, thus, put efforts and monies into linguistic and cultural programs."
"For them, their native language is part of their identity, and it must be transmitted to children. Many people, young or old, believe that one of the principal reasons for having established Hokkien establishment is to protect Hokkien language and culture," ... said. "The Government of Singapore should, thus, put efforts and monies into linguistic and cultural programs."
-- 21.
But Dorais and Sammons found that when people communicate among themselves, they prefer to use the language that makes communication the easiest.
For younger Inuit, especially in Iqaluit, this language seems to be English, sometimes mixed with Inuktitut.But ... and ... found that when people communicate among themselves, they prefer to use the language that makes communication the easiest.
For younger Hokkiens, especially in Singapore, this language seems to be English, sometimes mixed with other languages/dialects.-- 22.
Dorais and Sammons believe that this is because:
* Most young people do not know how to speak in Inuktitut about everyday life in today's world;
* Young people have been schooled almost exclusively in English;
* Youth culture is mostly North America's popular culture, which is expressed in English - "so, here again, it is not possible, nor necessary, for them to discuss it in Inuktitut," Dorais said... and ... believe that this is because:
* Most young people do not know how to speak in Hokkien about everyday life in today's world;
* Young people have been schooled almost exclusively in English;
* Youth culture is mostly Singapore's popular culture, which is expressed in English - "so, here again, it is not possible, nor necessary, for them to discuss it in Hokkien," ... said-- 23.
To reverse this situation, Dorais suggests education in Inuktitut should be offered up to Grade 12, and there should be more efforts to produce "modern" television programs, CDs, DVDs, etc. in Inuktitut.
To reverse this situation, ... suggests education in Hokkien should be offered up to JC2, and there should be more efforts to produce "modern" television programs, CDs, DVDs, etc. in Hokkien.
-- 24.
"This is what has been done in Greenland since Home Rule in 1979, and it has worked," Dorais said.
"Kalaallisut is the principal language used by all native Greenlanders, whatever their age, even if most of them are bilingual in Danish, and even trilingual, with English added. But I doubt that in Canada, the governments will ever allow the huge funds necessary for developing education.""This is what has been done in Taiwan since Mother Tongue Movement in the 90's, and it has worked," ... said.
"Taiwanese is the principal language used by many native Taiwanese, whatever their age, even if most of them are bilingual in Mandarin, and even trilingual, with English added. But I doubt that in Singapore, the governments will ever allow the huge funds necessary for developing education."see: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_Hokkien#Mother_tongue_movement)
-- 25.
So, if nothing changes, the situation Dorais said by 2020 Inuktitut will still be spoken, at least in the Baffin region and Nunavik - but it won't be thriving.
So, if nothing changes, the situation ... said by 2020 Hokkien will still be spoken, at least in the some situations - but it won't be thriving.
-- 26.
"Inuktitut will still be heard both in official circumstances, at the Legislative Assembly, in political speeches, etc., and among groups of relatives and friends - mixed with English - for joking, enjoying oneself and discussing small topics, what to eat, where to go today, etc."
"Hokkien will still be heard both in a few places etc., and among groups of relatives and friends - mixed with English - for joking, enjoying oneself and discussing small topics, what to eat, where to go today, etc."
-- 27.
Dorais said the need to be understood easily will continue to push speakers toward English, but the pride of being Inuk and identifying with Inuktitut will preserve some of the original language.
... said the need to be understood easily will continue to push speakers toward English, but the pride of being Hokkiens and identifying with Hokkien heritage will preserve some of the original language.
This is what I feel.
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
I want to use 2 articles from Canada relating to the current situation of the Inuit dialects (specifically the Inuktitut dialect) that are spoken by the Inuit natives (or commonly referred as Eskimo people). I hope it can serve as a reflection to the dialects in Singapore (eg. let me use Hokkien to substitute the Inuktitut language for example) and hope we can learn from their experiences:
http://www.sikunews.com/News/Canada-Nunavut/Help-Inuktitut-2113
http://www.sikunews.com/News/Canada-Nunavut/1508(i quote to show where I find striking parallelisms and substitutes to our local context in bold)
Hokkien will never become our working language unless Singapore high school students can study in Hokkien, says a new report by .....
If students don’t study in Hokkien beyond Grades 3 or 4, it will never be possible “to give Hokkien its proper place in Singapore,” says ..., who speaks several Chinese dialects and Hokkien fluently.
“It will, for sure, continue to be spoken for some decades, at least outside of ..., but its use risks being increasingly limited to petty topics, on the one hand, and highly symbolic domains (traditional life, political discourse, religious ceremonies) on the other.”
... says that within 10 or 15 years, ... may well become like ..., where only a *massive educational effort* might be able revive the Hokkien dialect.
... says Hokkien will never become Singapore's working language unless the Government of Singapore:
* Reaffirms its commitment to making Hokkien the working language by 2020;
* Creates a strong model for bilingual education;
* Determines where and how Hokkien and English should be used;
* Trains more Hokkien teachers, with a target of 85 per cent for 2020.... research attributes Hokkien's decline partially to the lack of a common dialect (among Singaporean Chinese), which means Chinese often use English/Mandarin to communicate with each other in Singapore.
English also dominates because itÂ’s needed in the job market, itÂ’s the vehicle of popular culture, and most contacts with the outside world occur in English.
Despite its increasing symbolic and political value, Hokkien seems to be in decline in Hokkienese homes,” ... says. “A majority of younger parents speak English to their kids or speak both languages.”
The idea that you have to speak good Hokkien or speak a common dialect of Min-dialects isn’t helping. “It may be better to speak a simplified version of Hokkien than no Hokkien at all,” Dorais says.
As for expressing emotions or political speech, English is considered more direct and more transparent in its meaning, while Hokkien is recognized as less direct and better for talking about culture.
Middle-aged Hokkienese appear to be at the “core of transition” towards full bilingualism in Singapore.
Even so, younger people told ... they think their grandchildren will (not) be speaking Hokkien.
Younger individuals (who, for the most part, do not have grandchildren yet) give an idealistic answer, because they are conscious of the part played by language in asserting Hokkien identity.”
*** But older people aren’t so optimistic about the future of Hokkien: “when looking at my youngest child and at my grandchild, I know they will ** HARDLY ** be able to talk in Hokkien, I think they will ** NOT ** be able to read and write in Hokkien.” ***
And all language professionals doubt Singapore can reach its goal of making Hokkien the working language by 2020. One said “when the government has to set special days aside to celebrate things like language and culture, it is the surest proof that these things are dying.”
Many told ... they want the Singapore Government and Language Department / MOE to invest money in Hokkien programs, although others said the responsibility for language teaching lies first and foremost in the home.
Research by linguists ... and ... predicts that by 2020, Hokkien will survive, but in a badly-weakened state, reports the ....
That's because growing numbers of young Hokkiens in these Singapore prefer to use English, for ease of communication.
Their research shows the principal language of communication for Hokkiens under 30 who live in Singapore is already English, even if most can speak Hokkien with some fluency.
"For them, their native language is part of their identity, and it must be transmitted to children. Many people, young or old, believe that one of the principal reasons for having established Hokkien establishment is to protect Hokkien language and culture," ... said. "The Government of Singapore should, thus, put efforts and monies into linguistic and cultural programs."
But ... and ... found that when people communicate among themselves, they prefer to use the language that makes communication the easiest.
For younger Hokkiens, especially in Singapore, this language seems to be English, sometimes mixed with other languages/dialects.... and ... believe that this is because:
* Most young people do not know how to speak in Hokkien about everyday life in today's world;
* Young people have been schooled almost exclusively in English;
* Youth culture is mostly Singapore's popular culture, which is expressed in English - "so, here again, it is not possible, nor necessary, for them to discuss it in Hokkien," ... saidTo reverse this situation, ... suggests education in Hokkien should be offered up to JC2, and there should be more efforts to produce "modern" television programs, CDs, DVDs, etc. in Hokkien.
"This is what has been done in Taiwan since Mother Tongue Movement in the 90's, and it has worked," ... said.
"Taiwanese is the principal language used by many native Taiwanese, whatever their age, even if most of them are bilingual in Mandarin, and even trilingual, with English added. But I doubt that in Singapore, the governments will ever allow the huge funds necessary for developing education."see: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwanese_Hokkien#Mother_tongue_movement)
So, if nothing changes, the situation ... said by 2020 Hokkien will still be spoken, at least in the some situations - but it won't be thriving.
"Hokkien will still be heard both in a few places etc., and among groups of relatives and friends - mixed with English - for joking, enjoying oneself and discussing small topics, what to eat, where to go today, etc."
... said the need to be understood easily will continue to push speakers toward English, but the pride of being Hokkiens and identifying with Hokkien heritage will preserve some of the original language.
This is what I feel.
We will only cherish once they are lost.
haiz...
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Although dialects aren't good as in spreading messages across fast (as in gotta spend time to get ppl who knows all the dialects to broadcast), they're at least e fundamentals to one person's roots.
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Originally posted by sbst275:
Although dialects aren't good as in spreading messages across fast (as in gotta spend time to get ppl who knows all the dialects to broadcast), they're at least e fundamentals to one person's roots.
Good to know you are still able to speak your Teochew dialect.
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Originally posted by Veggie Bao:
Actually is that going to be good or not good ?
I do not feel comfortable if that is the direction.
Dialect happens because in the past when transportation and communication is less advanced, people in one certain area would develop its own local language and customs etc.
Now as technology advance and the human mobility is highly improved, there is more and more contact and interactions between different peoples.
We are talking that in China itself there is great mobility and "strandardization" in language.
What about Singapore ?
Singapore is a very little place.
Singapore is very compact, tiny, densely populated, diverse, city.
I think another issue is also about internal Chinese unity and identity.
If there are schools based on dialects, that is retrogressive because it is bringing up again the situation in the past, where transportation and communication is less advanced, and that there were different blocks or groups of speakers.
In other words, it re-introduce and re-emphasize division.
I believe Singapore and especially Singaporean Chinese, which do not number that much, and has to live amongst other cultures, do not need to separate and divide themselves.
Of course, the primary motive and desire to do so, is to continue a heritage, to preserve something and to conserve something, something that is intimate and personal and precious.
I can understand that.
However I take the view that the present generation must take the sacrifice.
The present generation is the transitionary generation.
It depends now, does the present generation want to be nostalgic, and take a one step forward, two step back approach, or complete the process of standardization and unification, for the benefit of internal Chinese unity and identification.
For me I myself am also nostalgic about my dialect group. However I think it is not nice if we undo the great melting pot process of Chinese unification by reintroducing dialects. Just from the big picture, cultural aspect, I feel it is a kind of suicide and a kind of counter-productive thing to do.
Secondly we need to understand Singapore is not China. Singapore is not Taiwan, is not HongKong.
Singapore is a very far away place from the real ancestral cultural root of Singaporean Chinese in East Asia. It is located deep in South East Asia. Here there are many other cultures, and lots of immigrants and expats too. It is also heavily under the cultural influence of the Western culture and the English language.
Under such circumstances, it is simply impractical and impossible to have the luxury of reintroducing dialects.
If we understand something, actually the whole "cultural heritage" aspect of the people living in Singapore, is under heavy assault everyday from English / Western culture and also other component cultures. This is the basic fundamental setup of Singapore. If the Chinese Singaporeans should decide to separate and divide themselves by reintroducing dialects, it is very bad and is very messy, and is suicidal, because you further weaken yourself, in an already complex and complicated situation.
The others in HK and TW can do it because they have the relative critical mass.
We must understand what is Singapore and what can or cannot be done for Singapore.
Hainanese is one the more difficult dialects that Singaporean think so. Thus if you are able to maintain your Hainanese dialect, kudos to you.
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to think of it, in my former workplace got one PRC colleauge from putian,fujian province. His dialect sound very distinct from our singapore hokkien,despite the fact that my anscestor and him comes from same province.
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Originally posted by kengkia:
to think of it, in my former workplace got one PRC colleauge from putian,fujian province. His dialect sound very distinct from our singapore hokkien,despite the fact that my anscestor and him comes from same province.
Kengkia,The Putian dialect is a distinct dialect from the Hokkien dialect even though both came from the Fujian province.
The Putian dialect and the Xianyou dialect together is what we call the Henghua dialect in Singapore.
The actual Henghua dialect is mutually unintelligible with the Hokkien dialect, whereas the current Henghua dialect in Singapore (if still surviving) is almost thoroughly influenced by Hokkien due to their small numbers in Singapore.
(See post on Hokkienization of Henghua dialect: http://www.sgforums.com/forums/3545/topics/425775?page=2#post_10198717)The 2 Henghua speaking areas (Putian & Xianyou) lies just north of the Chuanchew variety of Hokkien speaking area, in the past (during and before the Song dynasty) it was a part of the Hokkien dialects when it belonged to the Chuanchew administration, around after the Song dynasty when it was transferred to under the Fuzhou administration, it became more and more influenced by the Hockchew-type of dialects (the Min-dong dialects) and Henghua finally became what it is nowadays.
If you listening carefully enough to Henghua, it has many many similarities with Hokkien. In the 2 varieties of Henghua, the Putian type lost more features of Hokkien while the Xianyou type preserved more features of Hokkien (eg. nasalized vowels, non-dipthongization). Similarly in geographical areas, Putian is nearer to the Fuzhou administration whereas Xianyou is nearer to the Hokkien administration, thus the natural influence.
One more thing: Don't be surprised that Henghua dialects is the "mother" of all the Min-nan dialects (eg. Hokkien, Teochew, Leizhou, Hainanese). Even though it is superficially influenced by the Min-dong dialects (Hokchia, Hokchiu) after the Song-dynasty, it's deep level phonology still reveals a very ancient Min-nan substratum. Furthermore, many Teochew, Leizhou and Hainanese people trace their ancestry back directly to the Putian and Xianyou areas (during the Song-dynasty large numbers of Henghua people migrated out due to population increase).
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yoz dude,
Im impressed u know so much about henghua stuff. are u a hingwa nang?
everything u noted about the hokkienization of henghua in Sg is true. even my own hingwa wa is very much influenced by hokkien cos the latter is the lingua franca in Sg.
Dialects are dying out in little Sg, especially henghua. I'm afraid that after my generation, none can speak henghua anymore. Unless MOE do something about dialect preservation, then Sg chinese population will speak only mandarin in the near future.(cos all the older population would had die off and even paikias nowadays also speak mandarin only)
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Originally posted by Mreldarlmari:
yoz dude,
Im impressed u know so much about henghua stuff. are u a hingwa nang?
everything u noted about the hokkienization of henghua in Sg is true. even my own hingwa wa is very much influenced by hokkien cos the latter is the lingua franca in Sg.
Dialects are dying out in little Sg, especially henghua. I'm afraid that after my generation, none can speak henghua anymore. Unless MOE do something about dialect preservation, then Sg chinese population will speak only mandarin in the near future.(cos all the older population would had die off and even paikias nowadays also speak mandarin only)
sad that many dialects will be downgraded into transliteral of low grade Mandarin.
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Originally posted by Mreldarlmari:
yoz dude,
Im impressed u know so much about henghua stuff. are u a hingwa nang?
everything u noted about the hokkienization of henghua in Sg is true. even my own hingwa wa is very much influenced by hokkien cos the latter is the lingua franca in Sg.
Dialects are dying out in little Sg, especially henghua. I'm afraid that after my generation, none can speak henghua anymore. Unless MOE do something about dialect preservation, then Sg chinese population will speak only mandarin in the near future.(cos all the older population would had die off and even paikias nowadays also speak mandarin only)
I not hingwa nang. I oni know dat much la.
MOE can't wait to support PAP's policy, that is to kill dialects, we hope loooooong looooong ba.