Justice is Served
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Lewis wins despite FIA's machinations and bias towards fiarrari, and despite a rival who needed his teammate to gift positions to him to even challenge Lewis. Lewis certainly didnt receive such help from his own teammate, which makes his achievement even more epic. Funny how old man justice was keeping an eye on proceedings and made sure that in the end, the trophy went to the most deserving driver. Roll on next year ^^
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I don't know why you say Lewser deserves the championship when he:
-Blocked people in qualifying (Malaysia)
-Botched start procedure (Bahrain)
-Crashed into others in pitlane (Canada)
-Cut chicanes (France & Belgium)
-Spun in qualifying (Italy)
-Forced people of track (Japan)Even if you cancel out the stewards decisions, Hamster would only lose 7 points. Yet Massa lost 20+ points because of the team...
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Either outcome of Brazil would not have been justice. Given the way Ham and Massa both bollixed it throughout the year, the 2008 WDC is simply the loser in a "who can screw up the most" contest. The only just WDC would have been Robert Kubica.
And I don't care how vehemently it is denied. The odds of Glock losing 20 seconds on a lap at the critical moment are so low it's not funny. KELONG!
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Originally posted by Gedanken:
And I don't care how vehemently it is denied. The odds of Glock losing 20 seconds on a lap at the critical moment are so low it's not funny. KELONG!
that one really need some investigation man.
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Both Glock and Trulli were on dry tyres and lost about the same amount of time.
And Macca seem to have gone the old Ferrari route. Heikki suffered all the mechanical failures, and wasn't able to maintain his early season form which saw him set fastest lap twice and keep Hamster honest, as the developments on the car went away from him.
Hamster deserved a penalty for the way he drove into Glock and Webber at Monza, if the one at Spa is questionable. At least with the current result though the sad folks on the BBC aren't harping about the latter, which would have been the case if Massa had won (after turning his car round and around in Oz, Sepang, England and Japan).
Hamster is very quick. There's no denying that, but like a certain Schumacher before him, he doesn't need those stunts. His gesticulations in Bahrain towards Fisichella (who was racing with him for position) stank as well.
I'm with Ged - Kubica made only one mistake all season, at Silverstone, and gave it everything at every race. The midfield battle was very close this season - every team other than Force India was on the podium at the end of at least one race.
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One simple answer: Any of you drove any sort of racing machinery on slicks in the wet before, then you're qualified to talk. I believe Glock. Why? I've experienced being in the wet on slicks before, it's worse that trying to dance on buttered ice. I'm not surprised he lost that much time, I'm surprised he didn't lose more.
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Originally posted by 4Justice:
One simple answer:
Any of you drove any sort of racing machinery on slicks in the wet before, then you’re qualified to talk. I believe Glock. Why? I’ve experienced being in the wet on slicks before, it’s worse that trying to dance on buttered ice. I’m not surprised he lost that much time, I’m surprised he didn’t lose more.
The championship is won over a year, not in Brazil. Both made many mistakes, but Hamilton made more. Is there a reason why he should force people off track, or ignoring a red light?
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Suddenly Ferrari's own mechanical unreliablity is not a mistake? And forcing people off track, thats utter bull. Basic racer know-how 101: If someone tries to uber late brake, don't try to outbrake him, brake early and take the normal line. Kimi also made a mistake, what we racers call "in sympathy". And if the championship is won over a year, then hamilton might have made more mistakes but massa did not perform as well more often. Heck, Hamilton didn't even have a teammate gifting him positions. Who deserves it more if you actually want to be objective about it? If Massa was so good and deserving why didn't he also win Malaysia? Kimi proved Ferrari had the front running pace in Canada, why did Massa only finish 5th? Why did he finish 13th in Brazil?. That is hardly a shining example of someone who didn't make mistakes. Certainly not big enough ones for the average layperson to notice, but significant enough that, by YOUR own logic, OVER a year, he scored less points. Perhaps if he was more consistant, he'd win. But his mistakes + Ferrari's mistakes (and not just the pitstop bobos, but the technical unreliablity too) mean that he lost.
Honestly, again by your own logic, is there any reason he should tip Hamilton into a spin at Fuji, despite being one of the "imagine if there was a wall at the chicane" brigade, is there any reason why he should cause an avoidable accident with Seb Borduais and still get away with it? Or any reason he should pull right out in front of poor Sutil in Singapore after his own clumsy spin? Any reason he should not even be able to keep the car pointing straight at Silverstone? What was that? Lewis made more? Ohhh do say that again you're such a hilarious chap!
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Originally posted by Gedanken:
Either outcome of Brazil would not have been justice. Given the way Ham and Massa both bollixed it throughout the year, the 2008 WDC is simply the loser in a "who can screw up the most" contest. The only just WDC would have been Robert Kubica.
And I don't care how vehemently it is denied. The odds of Glock losing 20 seconds on a lap at the critical moment are so low it's not funny. KELONG!
Timo KELONG.....
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so sayeth the ignorant, or the people who're too lazy to use their brains to think ^^
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Or they have short memories and blanked out the last few laps of Spa.
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You know I just love yanking your chain, 4J!
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Originally posted by Gedanken:
You know I just love yanking your chain, 4J!
yea i do, its those who blindly follow in bleating the same chant without actually giving it thought that makes me laugh. XDbtw we have to be realistic, in every given year there are between 2 to 6 potential championship winning seats. sure some driver might make fewer mistakes, but he in a way choose the team he drove for, so if anything that might be their one biggest mistake, and Lewis had the drive to approach ron as early as 10 for a drive, and with the talent to back it up, totally deserves being where he is, and hence, the title.
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pot kettle black?
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Originally posted by 4Justice:
yea i do, its those who blindly follow in bleating the same chant without actually giving it thought that makes me laugh. XDbtw we have to be realistic, in every given year there are between 2 to 6 potential championship winning seats. sure some driver might make fewer mistakes, but he in a way choose the team he drove for, so if anything that might be their one biggest mistake, and Lewis had the drive to approach ron as early as 10 for a drive, and with the talent to back it up, totally deserves being where he is, and hence, the title.
That's a bit of a stretch, though. By that measure, Anthony Hamilton should really be 2008 WDC. Besides, we all know that the choice is the team's rather than the drivers, at least at the start of one's career.
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Originally posted by 4Justice:
Lewis wins despite FIA’s machinations and bias towards fiarrari, and despite a rival who needed his teammate to gift positions to him to even challenge Lewis. Lewis certainly didnt receive such help from his own teammate, which makes his achievement even more epic. Funny how old man justice was keeping an eye on proceedings and made sure that in the end, the trophy went to the most deserving driver.
Roll on next year ^^
his team mate did let him pass in one of the later races. -
To me, it's still a measure of how Ferrari backed both of its drivers fully by giving them equal machinery, as we saw when they were both given faulty conrods for their engines. Rear-end stability was lacking in the car and that was Raikkonen's bugbear for much of the summer, until rear suspension improvements were introduced at Fuji.
Hamilton was given the better machinery and the car was developed for him. Kovalainen kept him honest in the first few rounds and set fastest laps, then he started having issues with rear tyre wear and brake temperatures (just to name 2, from Silverstone and Monza). Why was he anonymous against the likes of Vettel in Canada and Italy, and Trulli in France? Surely he didn't become Ralf overnight.
He allowed Hamilton to pass at both Silverstone and France but they were not consequential - Hamiton had better pace in both races.
As for Fuji, Hamilton closed the door on Massa and gave him no room - Massa had 2 wheels on the grass. And for the stewards to penalise him at the start he must have braked ridiculously late, beyond the braking point, to set off the chain of events.
I do have issues with Hamster as I feel he has no respect for other drivers other than those he has been mates with (Rosberg and Sutil), having been parachuted into the best teams instead of working his way up. Aside from the gesticulating and the chopping I mentioned earlier, he doesn't make himself any better than Raikkonen and Schumacher by snubbing the Driver's Association.
However, Massa hasn't impressed me with his ability to stay out of trouble, and he has only ever won races where he was dominant from the start (or through disqualifications). I don't think he is to blame for Sutil's crash, or for the unsafe releases from the pitlane - the latter were traffic light errors.
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Originally posted by 4Justice:
Suddenly Ferrari's own mechanical unreliablity is not a mistake? And forcing people off track, thats utter bull. Basic racer know-how 101: If someone tries to uber late brake, don't try to outbrake him, brake early and take the normal line. Kimi also made a mistake, what we racers call "in sympathy". And if the championship is won over a year, then hamilton might have made more mistakes but massa did not perform as well more often. Heck, Hamilton didn't even have a teammate gifting him positions. Who deserves it more if you actually want to be objective about it? If Massa was so good and deserving why didn't he also win Malaysia? Kimi proved Ferrari had the front running pace in Canada, why did Massa only finish 5th? Why did he finish 13th in Brazil?. That is hardly a shining example of someone who didn't make mistakes. Certainly not big enough ones for the average layperson to notice, but significant enough that, by YOUR own logic, OVER a year, he scored less points. Perhaps if he was more consistant, he'd win. But his mistakes + Ferrari's mistakes (and not just the pitstop bobos, but the technical unreliablity too) mean that he lost.
Honestly, again by your own logic, is there any reason he should tip Hamilton into a spin at Fuji, despite being one of the "imagine if there was a wall at the chicane" brigade, is there any reason why he should cause an avoidable accident with Seb Borduais and still get away with it? Or any reason he should pull right out in front of poor Sutil in Singapore after his own clumsy spin? Any reason he should not even be able to keep the car pointing straight at Silverstone? What was that? Lewis made more? Ohhh do say that again you're such a hilarious chap!
I never said Massa deserved the championship. I think you should get your facts right first before arguing. Ferrari gave their drivers equal machinery, but did McLaren?
In Canada, he had to queue behind Kimi and then the hose did not deliver any fuel.
In Singapore, how could he have sent Sutil into the barriers when he was already facing the wrong direction? Sutil had already run wide.
In Japan, how could the Ferrari drivers avoid him? Raikkonen did not brake late. Are saying that Raikkonen should have braked earlier (thus causing a pile up behind)? Also, tell everyone how Massa could avoid Hamilton apart from putting all 4 wheels on the grass.
In Brazil, he certainly did not finish 13th. (Are you senile or what?)
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Originally posted by 566117:
I never said Massa deserved the championship. I think you should get your facts right first before arguing. Ferrari gave their drivers equal machinery, but did McLaren?
In Canada, he had to queue behind Kimi and then the hose did not deliver any fuel.
In Singapore, how could he have sent Sutil into the barriers when he was already facing the wrong direction? Sutil had already run wide.
In Japan, how could the Ferrari drivers avoid him? Raikkonen did not brake late. Are saying that Raikkonen should have braked earlier (thus causing a pile up behind)? Also, tell everyone how Massa could avoid Hamilton apart from putting all 4 wheels on the grass.
In Brazil, he certainly did not finish 13th. (Are you senile or what?)
Equal machinery? Equally bad? Only because they can't make anything good this year. Did they give them equal machinery in the schey years? And can u say macca gave heikki inferior machinery, or was heikki just not as talented? Do'oh! Get YOUR facts right m'dear. All these new fans to F1, always unable to see beyond the superficial...
In Singapore, dear old Massa did not check that the track was clear and pulled right out in front of sutil. If i was sutil i would be going for the inside to avoid massa on the outside. when my inside line was suddenly blocked off by an inconsiderate nincompoop who pulls out without looking, where else can i go? If some guy pulled out in front of u without looking on the roads, I bet you'd be singing a different tune, my dear hypocrite.
In Japan, the Ferraris certainly could brake at their NORMAL braking spot. Come on, lets duff up the ol ignorance a bit. I've raced, and I can tell u for SURE that the only reason everyone else also went wide was because they were engaging in a late braking contest. Experience has shown time and time again that if you braked at the normal braking pt and let lewis shoot off the track alone, u wouldn't be going off with him. But I guess u don't have the experience to understand that do u? As for massa(nick this bit applies to you too, have a read), he could avoid hamilton by BRAKING? have a look at hamilton's 3 abreast pass in GP2 at silverstone. Guy in the middle? Thats a good example of how not to drive into the side of someone when you've been passed and is off the line. Perhaps massa forgot he had brakes? then he really shouldnt be in F1. or maybe he didnt feel he should avoid a collision? Just like he did with bourdais? pfft.
In brazil? Yes that would be my mistake. I meant silverstone. maybe u'd like to explain what a "talented" driver like massa was doing in silverstone spinning his way to oblivion? esp when his lacklustre teammate still managed to outperform him with the same car in the same conditions? hmm?
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Originally posted by Gedanken:
That's a bit of a stretch, though. By that measure, Anthony Hamilton should really be 2008 WDC. Besides, we all know that the choice is the team's rather than the drivers, at least at the start of one's career.
yea but the team, esp those with the budget, would generally go for who they think is the best right? And if you didn't have the talent to back that up, then the team wouldn't be keeping you for too long right? And finally, as i said, in effect nobody forces the drivers to sign a bloody contract. If Kubica, for eg, was that deserving, then he could hold out on BMW. If he thinks BMW has a chance of becoming a world champ team n signed for them, then is lewis any less deserving for being picked by macca? gotta remember also, these young drivers sometimes come up thru a certain manufacturer's backing and feel obliged to give back to them. The general rule is that the more deserving drivers will likely be in championship contending cars. Lewis didnt get to where he is by being a 3rd rate driver with skills undeserving of being in F1 did he?
So I know maybe u dont like him for his personality, but he still deserves the championship. Certainly more than a certain "Mr Battering Ram" in 1994...
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Originally posted by 4Justice:
yea but the team, esp those with the budget, would generally go for who they think is the best right? And if you didn't have the talent to back that up, then the team wouldn't be keeping you for too long right? And finally, as i said, in effect nobody forces the drivers to sign a bloody contract. If Kubica, for eg, was that deserving, then he could hold out on BMW. If he thinks BMW has a chance of becoming a world champ team n signed for them, then is lewis any less deserving for being picked by macca? gotta remember also, these young drivers sometimes come up thru a certain manufacturer's backing and feel obliged to give back to them. The general rule is that the more deserving drivers will likely be in championship contending cars. Lewis didnt get to where he is by being a 3rd rate driver with skills undeserving of being in F1 did he?
I don't see any of that as being relevant. The point I addressed was your stating that Lewis Hamilton approached Ron Dennis at the age of 10. What I'm saying is that it was Anthony, not Lewis, who approached Ron.
In the Kubica example, it's the driver choosing the team - how can you compare that to the team choosing Hamilton? It's not even apples-to-oranges - it's apple-to-tree.
As for whether he deserves the championship, it's a matter of opinion and my opinion is that he doesn't - I've been around long enough to see better, and I've seen chaps who have gotten more out of thier equipment. You know well enough that some former WDCs (and even some non-WDCs) would have sewn up the championship long ago instead of scraping in literally at the last minute owing to some other dickhead's fuck-up.
I'll stand by my view of the 2008 WDC - it was a "who can buttfuck himself less" competition.
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Originally posted by 4Justice:
Equal machinery? Equally bad? Only because they can't make anything good this year. Did they give them equal machinery in the schey years? And can u say macca gave heikki inferior machinery, or was heikki just not as talented? Do'oh! Get YOUR facts right m'dear. All these new fans to F1, always unable to see beyond the superficial...
In Singapore, dear old Massa did not check that the track was clear and pulled right out in front of sutil. If i was sutil i would be going for the inside to avoid massa on the outside. when my inside line was suddenly blocked off by an inconsiderate nincompoop who pulls out without looking, where else can i go? If some guy pulled out in front of u without looking on the roads, I bet you'd be singing a different tune, my dear hypocrite.
In Japan, the Ferraris certainly could brake at their NORMAL braking spot. Come on, lets duff up the ol ignorance a bit. I've raced, and I can tell u for SURE that the only reason everyone else also went wide was because they were engaging in a late braking contest. Experience has shown time and time again that if you braked at the normal braking pt and let lewis shoot off the track alone, u wouldn't be going off with him. But I guess u don't have the experience to understand that do u? As for massa(nick this bit applies to you too, have a read), he could avoid hamilton by BRAKING? have a look at hamilton's 3 abreast pass in GP2 at silverstone. Guy in the middle? Thats a good example of how not to drive into the side of someone when you've been passed and is off the line. Perhaps massa forgot he had brakes? then he really shouldnt be in F1. or maybe he didnt feel he should avoid a collision? Just like he did with bourdais? pfft.
In brazil? Yes that would be my mistake. I meant silverstone. maybe u'd like to explain what a "talented" driver like massa was doing in silverstone spinning his way to oblivion? esp when his lacklustre teammate still managed to outperform him with the same car in the same conditions? hmm?
I only need to remind you about where Heikki was in the first few races, giving Hamster a good run for his money. But after double non-points finishes in Spain and Turkey, he was always facing trouble with either his brake or tyre temperatures. Heikki was a development driver before so obviously he's not lacking in feedback, so something went away from him in the development of the car. Ferrari used to prioritise Schuey's challenge in the past and McLaren prided themselves on not doing that, so why are they resorting to that now?
Sutil went in too hot into turn 17 in Singapore from my point of view. He wasn't steering for the escape road...and Webber hit the barriers there in the same way too in practice, if you recall. (Edit: He had brake problems too, like many other drivers)
You could argue that Massa could have used his brakes in Fuji. I say that Hamilton could have used his mirrors, but he squeezed Massa out as he went for all of the racing line. He was half a car ahead so the penalty went his way, but he could have saved himself a lot of trouble in the process. It didn't happen at Monza but it had to happen sooner or later.
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Originally posted by 4Justice:
Equal machinery? Equally bad? Only because they can't make anything good this year. Did they give them equal machinery in the schey years? And can u say macca gave heikki inferior machinery, or was heikki just not as talented? Do'oh! Get YOUR facts right m'dear. All these new fans to F1, always unable to see beyond the superficial...
In Singapore, dear old Massa did not check that the track was clear and pulled right out in front of sutil. If i was sutil i would be going for the inside to avoid massa on the outside. when my inside line was suddenly blocked off by an inconsiderate nincompoop who pulls out without looking, where else can i go? If some guy pulled out in front of u without looking on the roads, I bet you'd be singing a different tune, my dear hypocrite.
In Japan, the Ferraris certainly could brake at their NORMAL braking spot. Come on, lets duff up the ol ignorance a bit. I've raced, and I can tell u for SURE that the only reason everyone else also went wide was because they were engaging in a late braking contest. Experience has shown time and time again that if you braked at the normal braking pt and let lewis shoot off the track alone, u wouldn't be going off with him. But I guess u don't have the experience to understand that do u? As for massa(nick this bit applies to you too, have a read), he could avoid hamilton by BRAKING? have a look at hamilton's 3 abreast pass in GP2 at silverstone. Guy in the middle? Thats a good example of how not to drive into the side of someone when you've been passed and is off the line. Perhaps massa forgot he had brakes? then he really shouldnt be in F1. or maybe he didnt feel he should avoid a collision? Just like he did with bourdais? pfft.
In brazil? Yes that would be my mistake. I meant silverstone. maybe u'd like to explain what a "talented" driver like massa was doing in silverstone spinning his way to oblivion? esp when his lacklustre teammate still managed to outperform him with the same car in the same conditions? hmm?
Just so you know, I have watched F1 for almost 10 years. By the way, I think you are wasting time by giving everyone a bunch of text.
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Originally posted by 566117:
Just so you know, I have watched F1 for almost 10 years. By the way, I think you are wasting time by giving everyone a bunch of text.
not even 10 years?newb lol. I watched my 1st race way back in the late 80s. You're one of those ferrari fanboys who started watching because they won a lot aren't you? almost 10 years would put u to start watching around the 99 or 2000 season. No wonder.
I would rather waste time with some logical arguments than do the same spewing some ferrari-biased drivel like you do. At least with Ged, much as i disagree with some of what he says, he's impartial.
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Originally posted by Kuali Baba:
I only need to remind you about where Heikki was in the first few races, giving Hamster a good run for his money. But after double non-points finishes in Spain and Turkey, he was always facing trouble with either his brake or tyre temperatures. Heikki was a development driver before so obviously he's not lacking in feedback, so something went away from him in the development of the car. Ferrari used to prioritise Schuey's challenge in the past and McLaren prided themselves on not doing that, so why are they resorting to that now?
Sutil went in too hot into turn 17 in Singapore from my point of view. He wasn't steering for the escape road...and Webber hit the barriers there in the same way too in practice, if you recall. (Edit: He had brake problems too, like many other drivers)
You could argue that Massa could have used his brakes in Fuji. I say that Hamilton could have used his mirrors, but he squeezed Massa out as he went for all of the racing line. He was half a car ahead so the penalty went his way, but he could have saved himself a lot of trouble in the process. It didn't happen at Monza but it had to happen sooner or later.
my dear nick, you would have to provide some real proof that macca is skewing things lewis's way. Actually, did u do engineering? You did didn't you? Technical errors are more often the fault of a string of processes. Things can often go away from people in the development of the car. Heikki could have had a car that was more to his liking and then as the car developed he found it harder to cope... just like Kimi. Are you going to say Ferrari skewed the development of the car Massa's way? No. The designers, engineers, do their physics wizadry on computer, based on theoratical physics and theoratical perfection. Some drivers are more adaptable, others aren't. To suggest a team is showing preference towards one driver based on the underperformance of their other driver due to any lack of ability on his own part is quite a fallacy. Nick, I really expect better than that from you.
By the way how were the Ting Tings?