Kimi rejects $72m McLaren deal
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Gaz, is the photo real?Originally posted by Gazelle:
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hopefully it will be in 2007.Originally posted by iveco:Gaz, is the photo real? 
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disagree. Adrian's leaving is more to do with 2 reasons:Originally posted by Gazelle:Ferrari with not go through the same financial slump they had in the past because Ferrari can float the company anytime and billionaire such as bernie, will rush to buy up a stake in the company. This year alone, Forbes has recorded 793 billionaires, and I bet 90% of them will own a ferrari, all will be very keen to be a stake holder in the company.
you cant just write off Ferrari just because 1 year of slump, which we all know it was mainly due to bridgestone and tyre change rules. Mclaren? They are a great team now, but what is going to happen next season no one knows because many key technical people has left Ron for other team.
Unless you have work with Ron before, or else what you are saying are pure speculation. If his is such a nice guy, then why did Adrian Newey keep speculating about retiring from F1 to build yacht, and then he suddenly switch to work for a smaller team and bring along with him his technical team.
Mclaren is in debt because of the technical centre, and I can assure you that Mclaren pocket will not be as deep as ferrari when it comes to paying his driver.
1) Red Bull paying insane amounts of money for personel.
2) Adrian needing a new challenge.
Red Bull is paying such insane amounts of money that its not just McLaren who's losing personel to them. Others up n down on the grid, namely Renault, are losing personal to them too. And if U wanted to poach personel, what better than to poach them from last seasons's 2 strongest teams?
Also, Podromu alone does not make up an entire technical team. A technical team is much bigger. And I'm not even talking about the lower ranking designers. I'm talking about key HODs.
And finally its a well known fact that Adrian wanted a new challenge and that the main reason for his defection is that he felt that he'd done enough to bring McLaren out of their 3 year slump. He might have retired from F1 but the competitiveness of the 03 McLaren rekindled his interest for F1. Then, in 05, the appearance of a team that is rich enough to afford him and yet midfield enough to present a mental challenge to him, is the key to him moving to another team. It has little to do with how Ron treats him. If he was treated so badly, there would always have been other teams willing to pay top money for him. The reason he jumped ship to RBR is the very reason he wanted to jump ship to Jag Rac. If Ron is such a bad boss do u think he'd have talked Adrian out of what was an effectively signed contract with Bobby?
Finally, I would personally doubt that McLaren is in debt. It is foolish to put down the team on the grid with the 2nd longest racing heritage and history as being in debt due to a new facility. The truth can't be further away. They might not be Ferrari but they are undoubtly the best british racing team ever. Looking at the glut of sponsers falling over each other to sign up with McLaren, I'd say financially they're certainly in the Pink. On the other hand, if Ferrari was as financially solvent as u say, then Luca shouldn't have needed to make those 'cottage industry' comments recently. -
ahahahOriginally posted by Gazelle:hopefully it will be in 2007.
no wonder... someone is a Ferrari fan ah. Die die want to say Ferrari financially got no problem. Sure... one year slump dun indicate a problem. I'll just remind u that ANY team on the grid, ferrari included, can easily go into a prolonged slump. Don't think Ferrari is immune to that. U'd be deluded if u believe that. Maybe u forgot the great 20 year slump from 1980 to 1999. I can't even find a slump THAT long for McLaren. -
I think you have just explained why kimi has no intention to stay at Mclaren.Originally posted by HENG@:disagree. Adrian's leaving is more to do with 2 reasons:
1) Red Bull paying insane amounts of money for personel.
2) Adrian needing a new challenge. -
well Kimi hasn't won a World Championship with McLaren yet. Imagine how it looks if Alonso comes to McLaren n wins one with them. People would say Kimi couldn't win a world championship with Maccie but put in a world champ like Alonso and he can do it. It would make Kimi seem silly. Worse he'd have to run to Ferrari n admit he's not good enuf to win it on his own regardless of team, he needs a team which plays unsportingly and has a 'master' and 'bitch' ranking for its drivers to win.Originally posted by Gazelle:I think you have just explained why kimi has no intention to stay at Mclaren.
If thats not a challenge to Kimi I don't know what is. And Ferrari are not red bull, they're not the ones paying absurd amounts of dosh to poach everyone. Kimi isn't going to get schumi's pay at Ferrari, so if its dosh he's after, Ferrari doesn't seem likely either. -
Me ferrari fan? hahaa..not lah my favrourite team on the grid at moment is still the williams and favourite driver is kimi. But I am pretty sure you are a die hard mclaren or should I say, DaimlerChrysler fan.Originally posted by HENG@:ahahah
no wonder... someone is a Ferrari fan ah. Die die want to say Ferrari financially got no problem. Sure... one year slump dun indicate a problem. I'll just remind u that ANY team on the grid, ferrari included, can easily go into a prolonged slump. Don't think Ferrari is immune to that. U'd be deluded if u believe that. Maybe u forgot the great 20 year slump from 1980 to 1999. I can't even find a slump THAT long for McLaren.
I dont believe you will go into a prolong slump in F1 today as long as you are financially sound. Not sure what is your definition of slump? Is being second or third on the grid considered as slump? -
hmm... I define a slump as a period of non-competitiveness. A drought of wins.Originally posted by Gazelle:Me ferrari fan? hahaa..not lah my favrourite team on the grid at moment is still the williams and favourite driver is kimi. But I am pretty sure you are a die hard mclaren or should I say, DaimlerChrysler fan.
I dont believe you will go into a prolong slump in F1 today as long as you are financially sound. Not sure what is your definition of slump? Is being second or third on the grid considered as slump?
As for me, haha. No I'm 1st and foremost a diehard McLaren fan, since age 3. I'm also a Mercedes fan since young. Its just nice for me that they've partnered each other later on.
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What you are saying is just one possible scenario. what if alonso win the world champion while having kimi as team mate? And ferrari starts winning races again. not possible?Originally posted by HENG@:well Kimi hasn't won a World Championship with McLaren yet. Imagine how it looks if Alonso comes to McLaren n wins one with them. People would say Kimi couldn't win a world championship with Maccie but put in a world champ like Alonso and he can do it. It would make Kimi seem silly. Worse he'd have to run to Ferrari n admit he's not good enuf to win it on his own regardless of team, he needs a team which plays unsportingly and has a 'master' and 'bitch' ranking for its drivers to win.
If thats not a challenge to Kimi I don't know what is. And Ferrari are not red bull, they're not the ones paying absurd amounts of dosh to poach everyone. Kimi isn't going to get schumi's pay at Ferrari, so if its dosh he's after, Ferrari doesn't seem likely either.
If kimi's goal is to beat alonso, I think the best chance would be for kimi and juan leave mclaren as the same time. (Juan to RB and Kimi to Ferrari), and mclaren will suffer because of a shortage of experence drivers in the team. (Dont forget Alex Wurz and AN is no longer at Mclaren). This is exactly what happen to Williams when they let Juan and Ralf leave the team at the same time.
I am pretty sure all team managers will be very happy if all drivers will thinks like you. Unfortunately for F1, money will always an issue when it comes to team and driver selection. -
Then what is the big deal if kimi leave for ferrari or not?Originally posted by HENG@:hmm... I define a slump as a period of non-competitiveness. A drought of wins.
As for me, haha. No I'm 1st and foremost a diehard McLaren fan, since age 3. I'm also a Mercedes fan since young. Its just nice for me that they've partnered each other later on. -
possible, but hey, im just pointing out the flaws in yr argument. U said my reply shows why Kimi wants to leave McLaren. And so, whats the bigger challenge? Staying on at McLaren or leaving? Staying on and beating a world champion team mate, while securing the championship for himself, is the biggest challenge he could accept. Sure he could go to Ferrari but either way, whether Ferrari starts winning a lot again or not, isn't going to be the best for his image.Originally posted by Gazelle:What you are saying is just one possible scenario. what if alonso win the world champion while having kimi as team mate? And ferrari starts winning races again. not possible?
If kimi's goal is to beat alonso, I think the best chance would be for kimi and juan leave mclaren as the same time. (Juan to RB and Kimi to Ferrari), and mclaren will suffer because of a shortage of experence drivers in the team. (Dont forget Alex Wurz and AN is no longer at Mclaren). This is exactly what happen to Williams when they let Juan and Ralf leave the team at the same time.
I am pretty sure all team managers will be very happy if all drivers will thinks like you. Unfortunately for F1, money will always an issue when it comes to team and driver selection.
Also, Im just pointing out the other flaw in that if u say Kimi is doing it for the money, he'd hop off to RBR. -
it'd be a pity. I admire Kimi loads but if he chooses not to take up the challenge of beating Alonso in the same team and winning the world championship, and to go to a dirty team like Ferrari no less, then it'd be a pity, and my respect for him will undoubtly drop a lot.Originally posted by Gazelle:Then what is the big deal if kimi leave for ferrari or not? -
I was just pointing out to you that Ferrari is not in any financial difficulties and stating that PM has signed a 6 years contract with them. (You say I ferrari fan) WTF???Originally posted by HENG@:possible, but hey, im just pointing out the flaws in yr argument. U said my reply shows why Kimi wants to leave McLaren. And so, whats the bigger challenge? Staying on at McLaren or leaving? Staying on and beating a world champion team mate, while securing the championship for himself, is the biggest challenge he could accept. Sure he could go to Ferrari but either way, whether Ferrari starts winning a lot again or not, isn't going to be the best for his image.
Also, Im just pointing out the other flaw in that if u say Kimi is doing it for the money, he'd hop off to RBR.
When I say Mclaren is in debt (not crisis) because of the technology centre. You say they are in PINK!! WTF
When did I say that Kimi is doing it ONLY for the money? If he is in for the money, then Toyota will be the team, not Ferrari isnt it?
You are assuming the mclaren is the ONLY team that can produce a championship winning car for kimi. That is a big FLAW to me. -
Well thats because I think I'm starting to see some hints of their being in some financial concern. If u're not a Ferrari fan, I apologise. But your insistance in ignoring the subtle signs were perplexing.Originally posted by Gazelle:I was just pointing out to you that Ferrari is not in any financial difficulties and stating that PM has signed a 6 years contract with them. (You say I ferrari fan) WTF???
If kimi is in for the money?
This is because I do think they are in the pink. Being in debt is like having a mortgage. A company might owe some cash, but with a company like McLaren, where the inflow is so much higher than the debt incured by that outflow, its certainly a small matter. Why bring it up, other than to try to use it as a debating point for saying its in a crisis? Of course if u're not actually trying to say it's in debt then once again, I apologise, but a smart person like u should not have failed to see that any large company like McLaren manages its finances carefully and that money for hiring drivers would already have been budgeted for. Certainly McLaren could afford Kimi, so I don't understand why u're talking about the debt from the technology center unless u're wishing to imply that they will not be able to afford him due to this debtOriginally posted by Gazelle:When I say Mclaren is in debt (not crisis) because of the technology centre. You say they are in PINK!! WTF
When did I say that Kimi is doing it ONLY for the money? If he is in for the money, then Toyota will be the team, not Ferrari isnt it?
im not assuming McLaren is the only team that can make a championship winning car for Kimi. I believe Renault and perhaps Ferrari could do it too. But Kimi would boost his reputation so much more by staying at McLaren n beating Alonso to the title. Sure he might lose, but which racing driver truely believes they're inferior to their rivals? Deep down its that self belief which drives them to race. I know that too well. If Kimi is already thinking he can't beat Alonso when they're in the same team, then perhaps he's not worth the respect, or supporting afterall.Originally posted by Gazelle:You are assuming the mclaren is the ONLY team that can produce a championship winning car for kimi. That is a big FLAW to me.
If kimi is in for the money? -
Why should Kimi wait until next year to be fighting for championship?Originally posted by HENG@:im not assuming McLaren is the only team that can make a championship winning car for Kimi. I believe Renault and perhaps Ferrari could do it too. But Kimi would boost his reputation so much more by staying at McLaren n beating Alonso to the title. Sure he might lose, but which racing driver truely believes they're inferior to their rivals? Deep down its that self belief which drives them to race. I know that too well. If Kimi is already thinking he can't beat Alonso when they're in the same team, then perhaps he's not worth the respect, or supporting afterall. Does he need to prove that he his faster than Alonso? I thought he already did last season?
Fiat financial difficulties are old news which people have been talking about it for the last few seasons. You are only starting to see some "hint"?Originally posted by HENG@:Well thats because I think I'm starting to see some hints of their being in some financial concern. If u're not a Ferrari fan, I apologise. But your insistance in ignoring the subtle signs were perplexing.
Why bring it up? Because the cost of buiding that technology centre is around S$1,000,000,000, (Yes 1 Billion). Btw, where does mclaren get all their incomes beside F1 and selling SLR?Originally posted by HENG@:This is because I do think they are in the pink. Being in debt is like having a mortgage. A company might owe some cash, but with a company like McLaren, where the inflow is so much higher than the debt incured by that outflow, its certainly a small matter. Why bring it up, other than to try to use it as a debating point for saying its in a crisis? Of course if u're not actually trying to say it's in debt then once again, I apologise, but a smart person like u should not have failed to see that any large company like McLaren manages its finances carefully and that money for hiring drivers would already have been budgeted for. Certainly McLaren could afford Kimi, so I don't understand why u're talking about the debt from the technology center unless u're wishing to imply that they will not be able to afford him due to this debtOriginally posted by HENG@:
what kimi need is to win the championship, regardless which team or with which team mate. He has already proven to be faster than alonso and Juan on many occasions and every F1 fans believes he is very fast and probably the best on the grid, hence I dont think he need mclaren (or Heng@
im not assuming McLaren is the only team that can make a championship winning car for Kimi. I believe Renault and perhaps Ferrari could do it too. But Kimi would boost his reputation so much more by staying at McLaren n beating Alonso to the title. Sure he might lose, but which racing driver truely believes they're inferior to their rivals? Deep down its that self belief which drives them to race. I know that too well. If Kimi is already thinking he can't beat Alonso when they're in the same team, then perhaps he's not worth the respect, or supporting afterall. ) to set up the perfect stage for a kimi-alonso showdown.
Is there any need for him to boost his reputation when Mclaren is not going to pay for it? -
There is one constant in racing. That is, u must 1st beat yr teammate. He doesn't need to wait till next year to fight for the championship, but if he beat alonso within the same team next year, how much sweeter it would be.Originally posted by Gazelle:Why should Kimi wait until next year to be fighting for championship? Does he need to prove that he his faster than Alonso? I thought he already did last season?
Oh im not talking about Fiat, silly. I'm well aware they're in financial difficulties long ago. However, I'm talking about the subtle hints from the Ferrari people that indicates they're getting more nervous than they'd like others to catch on. Those are the hints I'm talking about. I can't help it if u can't catch them, but don't assume that I'm behind in the news ok? When a condensending tone backfires on u, it makes u look all the more stupid.Originally posted by Gazelle:Fiat financial difficulties are old news which people have been talking about it for the last few seasons. You are only starting to see some "hint"?
HmmmmOriginally posted by Gazelle:Why bring it up? Because the cost of buiding that technology centre is around S$1,000,000,000, (Yes 1 Billion). Btw, where does mclaren get all their incomes beside F1 and selling SLR?
let me point it out to u since u seem to be rather ignorant about the McLaren Group...
besides F1 (McLaren Racing) and the SLR (McLaren Automotive), McLaren makes their money from:
WRC, MotoGP, Nascar, Le Mans/GT racing (McLaren Electronic Systems)
Working within a diverse range of industries and developing commercial applications for technology developed within the McLaren Group. In other words, they sell technology to other industries. That includes satelite manufacturing. (McLaren Applied Technologies)
Gourmet Catering for both land and in flight applications (Absolute Taste) -
no he certainly doesn't need me to set up the stage for a perfect kimi-alonso showdown. Yes he needs to win the championship. But championships won in style are the stuff of legends. I don't think he was here to be a journeyman where world champs are concerned. He doesn't need McLaren to set it up for him, but why should he show that he needs to run away from the bullfighter to win a world championship?Originally posted by Gazelle:what kimi need is to win the championship, regardless which team or with which team mate. He has already proven to be faster than alonso and Juan on many occasions and every F1 fans believes he is very fast and probably the best on the grid, hence I dont think he need mclaren (or Heng@ ) to set up the perfect stage for a kimi-alonso showdown.
Is there any need for him to boost his reputation when Mclaren is not going to pay for it?
and y not? McLaren IS going to pay for it. A team's strength is more than decided by just one person. Mike left renault but theys still won. Adrian can leave McLaren but McLaren will still be strong. On the contary, Rory Bryne didn't leave Ferrari and yet last year's Ferrari was a dog of a car. Nobody big like Adrian or Rory left Ferrari, so why the sudden loss of performance? A designer like Mike or Adrian might turn a struggling team's fortunes around, but once a winning structure is in place, they won't likely forget how to win, with the exception of Ferrari who have already proven they can forget how to win for 20 years straight. What I'm saying is, Ferrari won't stop winning altogether, but going on trends, they won't dominate like they have done for the next few years. Things are going to be more even, so instead of going to a team where u may or may not get a better car, why not face down yorur greatest rival in the same car? At least u know that he won't have a massively better car than u. -
Not ignorant about the Mclaren group, just trying my best to explain to you that they are in debt and they cant afford to pay like ferrari.Originally posted by HENG@:Hmmmm
let me point it out to u since u seem to be rather ignorant about the McLaren Group...
besides F1 (McLaren Racing) and the SLR (McLaren Automotive), McLaren makes their money from:
WRC, MotoGP, Nascar, Le Mans/GT racing (McLaren Electronic Systems)
Working within a diverse range of industries and developing commercial applications for technology developed within the McLaren Group. In other words, they sell technology to other industries. That includes satelite manufacturing. (McLaren Applied Technologies)
Gourmet Catering for both land and in flight applications (Absolute Taste) -
I very much doubt it. Like I said, u're missing the subtle signs coming out from Ferrari. They most certainly can afford to pay like Ferrari if they had to. Why do u think they won't have budgeted for that already?Originally posted by Gazelle:Not ignorant about the Mclaren group, just trying my best to explain to you that they are in debt and they cant afford to pay like ferrari.
And if u don't know how they make their gazillions other than thru F1 and SLR, how are u not ignorant about the McLaren Group? U call that trying your best to explain they're in debt? By showing me u don't quite know what area of business they engage in besides F1 and making SLRs? I'd say thats not trying very hard, or that your best is really not very good...
one more mistake u're making is this misconception that the McLaren Technology Center is an expenditure. Well, its an investment, and its already starting to pay for itself.
Of course, very simply, u should just give up trying to explain something that isn't true... -
In business there is what you call core and non core business. For Mclaren, F1 and their involvement with Merc is still their core, all other stuffs are just non core and they dont contribute alot to their bottom line. Gazillion? I dont think so lah...I think the only person with such wealth is Bernie.Originally posted by HENG@:I very much doubt it. Like I said, u're missing the subtle signs coming out from Ferrari. They most certainly can afford to pay like Ferrari if they had to. Why do u think they won't have budgeted for that already?
And if u don't know how they make their gazillions other than thru F1 and SLR, how are u not ignorant about the McLaren Group? U call that trying your best to explain they're in debt? By showing me u don't quite know what area of business they engage in besides F1 and making SLRs? I'd say thats not trying very hard, or that your best is really not very good...
one more mistake u're making is this misconception that the McLaren Technology Center is an expenditure. Well, its an investment, and its already starting to pay for itself.
Of course, very simply, u should just give up trying to explain something that isn't true...
MTC is not expenditure, it is a liability untill they are fully paid off. Investment definitely, but what you should be looking at is the Return on Investment?
I think you better just stick to the wheels and stop talking about business. Btw, how many SLR did mclaren sell over the years? And when was the last time they win a championship? -
Please dont count the chicken before they are hatched. AN just left Mclaren for 4 months, and what you are seeing now is what AN has left behind. you should only make such statement when you see Mclaren new car next season.Originally posted by HENG@:no he certainly doesn't need me to set up the stage for a perfect kimi-alonso showdown. Yes he needs to win the championship. But championships won in style are the stuff of legends. I don't think he was here to be a journeyman where world champs are concerned. He doesn't need McLaren to set it up for him, but why should he show that he needs to run away from the bullfighter to win a world championship?
and y not? McLaren IS going to pay for it. A team's strength is more than decided by just one person. Mike left renault but theys still won. Adrian can leave McLaren but McLaren will still be strong. On the contary, Rory Bryne didn't leave Ferrari and yet last year's Ferrari was a dog of a car. Nobody big like Adrian or Rory left Ferrari, so why the sudden loss of performance? A designer like Mike or Adrian might turn a struggling team's fortunes around, but once a winning structure is in place, they won't likely forget how to win, with the exception of Ferrari who have already proven they can forget how to win for 20 years straight. What I'm saying is, Ferrari won't stop winning altogether, but going on trends, they won't dominate like they have done for the next few years. Things are going to be more even, so instead of going to a team where u may or may not get a better car, why not face down yorur greatest rival in the same car? At least u know that he won't have a massively better car than u.
If AN and Rory Bryne is easily dispensable, I am wondering why Mclaren tried so hard to keep AN over the last few seasons and Ferrari still offer RB a job as consultant? too much $$? Or is it because aerodynamic is too important for the team to win races?
I think you should stop talking about Ferrari's slump in the past because that has got nothing to do with present and the future. Beating Alonso at Mclaren will not be as great as beating MS at ferrari. No? Seven time world champion leh? Alonso? He got to win because mclaren failed isnt it? -
yes there are core and non core businesses. So what are u suggesting? that their non core businesses make a few hundred only? If their business dosn't contribute a lot, then why even run it? It might not contribute as much as their racing business alone, but it's still a significant portion of their profit.Originally posted by Gazelle:In business there is what you call core and non core business. For Mclaren, F1 and their involvement with Merc is still their core, all other stuffs are just non core and they dont contribute alot to their bottom line. Gazillion? I dont think so lah...I think the only person with such wealth is Bernie.
MTC is not expenditure, it is a liability untill they are fully paid off. Investment definitely, but what you should be looking at is the Return on Investment?
I think you better just stick to the wheels and stop talking about business. Btw, how many SLR did mclaren sell over the years? And when was the last time they win a championship?
Maybe u should stop sounding all "oh i know business and u don't" because it doesn't give u any credibility on the subject either. If i should stick to the wheels, doesn't that mean u should stick to sniffing worn "clothing"? -
what a rubbish statement! will Ferrari allow anyone to beat MS at Ferrari? Thats not the way their politics operates inside the team. Just saying that alone shows that u're not even talking with a clear head, so no point talking to u further. u just want kimi to head off to ferrari for some weird reason.Originally posted by Gazelle:Please dont count the chicken before they are hatched. AN just left Mclaren for 4 months, and what you are seeing now is what AN has left behind. you should only make such statement when you see Mclaren new car next season.
If AN and Rory Bryne is easily dispensable, I am wondering why Mclaren tried so hard to keep AN over the last few seasons and Ferrari still offer RB a job as consultant? too much $$? Or is it because aerodynamic is too important for the team to win races?
I think you should stop talking about Ferrari's slump in the past because that has got nothing to do with present and the future. Beating Alonso at Mclaren will not be as great as beating MS at ferrari. No? Seven time world champion leh? Alonso? He got to win because mclaren failed isnt it? -
Okay guys, I'm seeing some very good points coming from both sides here, so let's not ruin things by going offtrack and getting personal here, eh?
One swallow does not a spring make, but Ferrari is not looking good for a second year in a row. Looking at similar struggles that teams like McLaren and Williams have had in recent years, it is not unreasonable to expect that Ferrari may be in the doldrums for quite a while yet.
On the other hand, with the likes of Brawn and Byrne, I wouldn't put it past them to outdo their contemporaries in terms of recovery time. Note that the 2003GA was not a very good car by their standards, but they bounced right back with the 2004 and swept 15 out of 17 races.
As for Kimi's move, it's 6-5 and call 'em. He could well want to prove himself by beating Alonso on equal terms and winning the WDC with McLaren, but on the other hand this long stretch of being the bridesmaid but not the bride has to be getting to him, and it would be equally logical for him to want to join a team where he feels he can win. -
It is hard to tell from the outside if their other non-core business division are making money. What makes you think they are? Do you have their financial breakdown?Originally posted by HENG@:yes there are core and non core businesses. So what are u suggesting? that their non core businesses make a few hundred only? If their business dosn't contribute a lot, then why even run it? It might not contribute as much as their racing business alone, but it's still a significant portion of their profit.
Maybe u should stop sounding all "oh i know business and u don't" because it doesn't give u any credibility on the subject either. If i should stick to the wheels, doesn't that mean u should stick to sniffing worn "clothing"?
""McLaren Technology Center is an expenditure"" show how much you know about company balance sheet.
