If heaven was perfectly blissful
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You are not obliged to use the word “force” if you dun believe in existence of Heaven. I have no right nor authority to force you to say things tt does nt reflect ur beliefs…no gun pointing at u. If your belief is strong, neither words nor physical threat can deter it. So, let’s take it you are not so sure whether Heaven exist…50/50
My personal belief on the percentage on the existence of heaven is probably 0.01 is to 99.99
Why can't I use the word force ? I only meant tat if I really had to say out which group of people deserve to go to heaven, then it should be whether they had done sufficient good deeds over their bad ones irregardless of their religion. It is meant to say if I really had to name a group of people, then the above group of people deserve to go in more than the others. I don't think the word force is wrongly used here.IF your type of heaven exists, in your ‘proposal’, you decide who to go since you suggest, to keep track the entire human race’s merit points and demerit points. Wait, do you know how much u have got in total now? Who told u? U know how many points for telling a seemingly harmless lie u make which might have devastating effect on someone in future and a seemingly small help from u, which u dun know tt will greatly benefit many people out there. A good guy does good deeds his whole life, but killed his love enemy becoz of love. Good, bad? 49.93% good? Sometimes, a guy who normally does good things can do something really really bad, and a guy who normally does bad things can do something really really good. Do u know a guy who does good things also can dun like someone who also normally does good things? Wun your heaven be chaotic as well?
I thought I had explained explicitly, their good deeds had substantially more than the bad ones. In your illustration about the person killing his love enemy, then he does not go to heaven since his bad deeds has overpowered his good deeds. It is not just the number of deeds, but the effect of each of these deeds. Then again wat does christianity offer ? He too only offer passage to people who does good deeds and believers of christ. U ask me who decide the merit points of the world, the answer is the same as wat christainity answer is. If u ask me how to grade the points, my answer is the same as wat christainity have. The main difference is mine is a system tat does not focus of their religion. It will definitely be less chaotic than your model of heaven since better people r chosen.You sat in a bus full of people, a feeble ah ma boards the bus, nobody including you offers the seat to her, bus jams brake suddenly. She falls down and sprains her back. Whose fault? Bus driver or/and every of you who never offers the seat to her? How are the demerit points going to be allocated? People sitting far away says “I shld take less fault man, people nearer her shld offer.Bus so crowded, very MAH FAN”….the person who forced the bus driver to brake? Does he know his mistake already caused harm to others? How how how how? For that case how? Total how?
Good question. In christianity, how does tis action be graded ? Not anyone who cries Lord lord can go into heaven u know. Both model has the same answer to your above model. U tell me christainity answer I tell u mine.To God, we are all sinners and fall short of His glory. He treats each and every one of us equal. How about those non-Christians? Jesus said "To him who has, shall more be given" (Mark 4:25). To non-Christian who response to the truth of Christ, but do not know about Christ, does not experience ChristÂ’s salvation and the forgiveness of sins.
Tat is right ! It is unfair isn't it ? U cannot blame anyone who choose another religion because christainity is as vague as others. Tat is not fair isn't it ?
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Like I mentioned earlier on, you dun know the demerit points system, neither do I. Who’s good? Who’s bad? We are not in mediacorp drama series where u n me clearly know who are the bad guys….commit crimes, wear black color clothes, sit in dark corner…n ho rang wear white clothes, at times kerna bullied…or become overnite hero. You dun like one of your friends. He “backstabbed” u becoz he JUST doesn’t like u either, but he always help his closest friends. To u, is he good or bad? Should he go to heaven? Does he know he will enter? He will be like a headless fly. Take for example you take part in a marathon, you ask the official where is the starting line, he says “I dun know, just start running”..then u ask “where is the ending line”, he replies “I dun know, just keep running running running running running running running running running.” Would you complain about the rules of the marathon like you would complain about your life?
U dun know ? I thought christainty offer the same demerit and merit system as well. Tat is why people r pursuaded to donate money as it is a "spiritual investment". I think u better go back and study more christainity before u make a reply.Yes, I canÂ’t agree more with you on the doubt you should have. ItÂ’s like having relationships with your girlfriend, siblings, friends. You have to know more about her/him in order to trust believe and have faith in parents or girlfriend rite. Likewise, you have to find out and understand more about God and you will be able to receive the Truth from Him.
U can know about friends and relative because they r physical. U can't do tat for god because he is not there. To be blunt, from a scientific and psychology aspect, u r the one tat imagine wat he is like. If u imagine he is agood god, he become a good one. If u imagine him to be a harsh master, he will be the harsh master. He is nothing more than your... errmm.... imaginary friend...I believe you would have studied quite a few and research a bit on the big bangs, extinction of dino, fossils. Yes, I agree science does unravel a lot of mysteries and facts but why does everyone has different scientific views on certain things like extinction of dino n tt human that itÂ’s as controversial as politics? We have too limited knowledge and things to use predict the past, let alone the future. For example, the fossils we have found so far are too inadequate to prove most of the claims. Dun you think so?
We already have sufficient knowledge to know about the past accurately enough. It is tat christainity refuse to asknowledge tat fact and insist tat we know nothing about it. The fossils tat were found is sufficient to prove most of the bible claims as wrong. No one is talking about predicting the future here.As for your question on the Noah Ark, there are few reasons to rebuke the statement that Noah Ark never exists due to the face that we still canÂ’t find or almost impossible to find any human fossil in situ during that eraÂ…one of them is that multiple-bones mammals fossil records we have till tis day is too rare to findÂ….probably a few casesÂ…The order of burial further increase the difficulties of finding human fossils as shallow marine organisms would be first destroyed by the Flood and then were buried by erosion of the land., thus explains why we have almost all of the fossils records we have today are on shallow marine organism fossils.
Wat r u trying to say here ? Why must we find the fossil of tat period to prove noah ark ? There r several more easy ways. There r too many species of animals and too much food needed to filled in noah's ark. It is believed tat considering only the species of beetles, it can filled in 10 times the volume of noah's ark. U can say they had evolved into the many speicies of animals today, but a few thousands years is insufficient for such extensive evolution to take place.
Why do u say tat all of the fossil records we have today r on shallow marine organism fossils ? We have fossils on men and dinosaurs found isn't it ? And they r not shallow marine organism isn't it ?I will agree with you if you have all the evidences to justify your claimsÂ…I read with an open mind and heart guided by Lord. If I dun know, I will humbly tell you I dun know, for my knowledge is a small grain of sand as compared to GodÂ’s unlimited knowledge.
Why do u believe tat your religion must be true ? It is still true regardless of the incredible amount of evidences against it ? U tell me a verse from the bible, but the bible can be a lie as well. Many other sciptures also claims tat beliving in their scrioture willmake u wise. But such claims r cheap... anyone can make claims...
As stated in Prov 1:7 “Fearing of God is the beginning of knowledge” and Prov 9:10 “The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.”No. God forgives us but does nt mean He endorse nor condone sins… It actually grieves Him. Christians do get punishments as well, just like the rest of the non-Christians.
I think it is a bit puzzling.. u r telling people about the law system with reference to the religion ? The law do not forgives but seek to mete out punishment to the guilty. It does not have any relationship with god or christainity. The law carrying on with the death sentence to these people is not a sign tat god forgive but do not condone or endorse sins.
I am pretty sure non-christians get worse punishment than christians for the same acts being done.You probably didn’t get the underlying meaning of my statement. Let’s take for an example; you have a friend called A, who went to take this Viking ride. He comes back to you and says its really thrilling n is the best ride in the world. Another friend of urs, called B, went to take another Viking ride somewhere and he comes back telling u, “Woww, that’s the best and most exciting ride in the world.” You never experience any Viking ride, so can you say “This ABC viking from this XYZ theme park is the best ride in the world” or “The Viking that A took is the best in the world.” Would ppl doubt what you say like what u doubt abt what God tells me?
Lets say A take the viking ride and tell me I will love it the most. B take the roller coaster and tell me I will enjoy tis ride the most. Wat conclusion can we gather from it ? Surely A and B cannot be correct at the same time. A shouldn't come to the conclusion tat if he thoroughly enjoyed the viking ride, it must definitely be the best one around. In fact both may be wrong. Conclusion: u telling me your experience with christainity doesn't really mean a thing to me nor prove tat christainity is right. -
Bible mention that animals won't die in Eden? or your assumption again? Death is a sentence God give to man, but not to animals. Animals do die naturaly. It is their nature of life cycle, nothing to sad about and nothing unfair there.
Bible never mention tat animals die in eden too. Throughout genesis 1, 2 and 3 they never mention any possibility of animals dying. In fact god ask adam to be a vegetarian and eat only fromt he trees and not any of the animals since probably they can't die. It is only in genesis 4 when a lamb is sacrificed then does it show animals can die. I think tat is a good reason for believing tat animals die along with men after adam ate the apple.No, if you choose the path created by Jesus, you won't die. You soul will go to heaven after dead and live there happily ever after.
U still physically die
before adam's sin, they don't even physically die. BTW, according to some christians, u don't go to heaven direct but.. don't know where... sleep till judgement days arrived. Things ares pretty much the same before and after christ appearYou can't find evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen. A lot of things happened last week, you also may having problem to find evidence to proof that it did happen, right? The earthquake is just happen in that small area, historians from China didn't know it happened is reasonable what?
They have taken time to record the sky darkening and no time to write about a major earthquake and dead people rising ? We r not talking about chinese history but the history of middle east. Why talk about chinese historian here ?!?!?The point is, you can be in totally wrong as well
So the point u have raised on your own experiences doesn't help in anythingThe point is, everyone of us including baby are carrying the original sin from the "apple", that's why the evil part already with us since we are born. Before that, Adam and Eve didn't carry any sin any evil, and they are knowing what is good (not like you said, they don't know both good and evil).
No, they don't know wat is GOOD and EVIL. Tat is why the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. If they know wat is good then definitely they will know wat is evil isn't it ?You know the laws prevent you to steal, but the Ah Beng tell you it is ok to steal, will you listen to Ah Beng? If you listen to Ah Beng, then it is your choice that you make and you must face the consequences and be responsible for it.
U don't know wat is good and evil, u don't know wat is deceiving, u thought tat the snake is right.
If a person say it is okay for u to take his money on his hand, u will take them isn't it ? Who knows tat after taking his money he cried for help saying tat u have steal from him. U know the laws, but u r deceived so r u surely guilty ? If u fight a case using the above example, the court will rule u as innocent. -
Since Bible didn't mention that animals die in Eden or not and you didn't have any scientific evidence to say so, then let just don't assume they won't die in Eden, okay? Maybe both of us should put this into the file of "unknown".Originally posted by stupidissmart:Bible never mention tat animals die in eden too. Throughout genesis 1, 2 and 3 they never mention any possibility of animals dying. In fact god ask adam to be a vegetarian and eat only fromt he trees and not any of the animals since probably they can't die. It is only in genesis 4 when a lamb is sacrificed then does it show animals can die. I think tat is a good reason for believing tat animals die along with men after adam ate the apple.
Actually I have an idea of how human physically don't die, but it is too complex to explain here, I will start another thread to explain that. Here we talk about life as a whole, which include our soul. When our physical body die, our soul still live.Originally posted by stupidissmart:U still physically die before adam's sin, they don't even physically die. BTW, according to some christians, u don't go to heaven direct but.. don't know where... sleep till judgement days arrived. Things ares pretty much the same before and after christ appear
I didn't know middle east history and I didn't know they keep another hictorical records as well other than Bible. So, I have no comment.Originally posted by stupidissmart:They have taken time to record the sky darkening and no time to write about a major earthquake and dead people rising ? We r not talking about chinese history but the history of middle east. Why talk about chinese historian here ?!?!?
Since God giving Adam and Eve the freedom to choose and warn them specifically, God must already ensure that they atleast know what is good for them and what is bad for them. God must already ensure that they have the sufficient knowledge and can not be easily "deceiving", if not their own free will of choice. So, they are accountable for their decision made.Originally posted by stupidissmart:U don't know wat is good and evil, u don't know wat is deceiving, u thought tat the snake is right.
If a person say it is okay for u to take his money on his hand, u will take them isn't it ? Who knows tat after taking his money he cried for help saying tat u have steal from him. U know the laws, but u r deceived so r u surely guilty ? If u fight a case using the above example, the court will rule u as innocent
What you trying to explain here are just simply based on your assumptions. Assume that they don't know what is "good", assume that they didn't have enough knowledge to prevent being "deceiving". Why can't you just accept that they know it is wrong and yet they choose to did it?
If you insist that they are stupid at that time, then I must say "Stupid Is Sin" -
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U dun know ? I thought christainty offer the same demerit and merit system as well. Tat is why people r pursuaded to donate money as it is a "spiritual investment". I think u better go back and study more christainity before u make a reply.
InvestmentÂ…? Mark 12:13-17
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U can know about friends and relative because they r physical. U can't do tat for god because he is not there. To be blunt, from a scientific and psychology aspect, u r the one tat imagine wat he is like. If u imagine he is agood god, he become a good one. If u imagine him to be a harsh master, he will be the harsh master. He is nothing more than your... errmm.... imaginary friend...
Well..refer to last statement.
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We already have sufficient knowledge to know about the past accurately enough. It is tat christainity refuse to asknowledge tat fact and insist tat we know nothing about it. The fossils tat were found is sufficient to prove most of the bible claims as wrong. No one is talking about predicting the future here.
Sufficient knowledge? Please, is there any one else who specialized fossil pathology? Prove is too strong a word to use when there many doubts on the so-called facts as wellÂ…
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Wat r u trying to say here ? Why must we find the fossil of tat period to prove noah ark ? There r several more easy ways. There r too many species of animals and too much food needed to filled in noah's ark. It is believed tat considering only the species of beetles, it can filled in 10 times the volume of noah's ark. U can say they had evolved into the many speicies of animals today, but a few thousands years is insufficient for such extensive evolution to take place.
Why do u say tat all of the fossil records we have today r on shallow marine organism fossils ? We have fossils on men and dinosaurs found isn't it ? And they r not shallow marine organism isn't it ?
MAJORITYÂ…shallow marine organismÂ… I didnÂ’t say we found no dinosaurs or human fossil throughout history..read my passage again if u ever read it. You can check up the definition of shallow marine organism. Dun have much time nw to be in forum.
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Why do u believe tat your religion must be true ? It is still true regardless of the incredible amount of evidences against it ? U tell me a verse from the bible, but the bible can be a lie as well. Many other sciptures also claims tat beliving in their scrioture willmake u wise. But such claims r cheap... anyone can make claims...
You are making claims as well? Does that mean your claims are expensive? Really, donÂ’t mean to be offensive. Jiu Shi Lun ShiÂ….
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I think it is a bit puzzling.. u r telling people about the law system with reference to the religion ? The law do not forgives but seek to mete out punishment to the guilty. It does not have any relationship with god or christainity. The law carrying on with the death sentence to these people is not a sign tat god forgive but do not condone or endorse sins.
I am pretty sure non-christians get worse punishment than christians for the same acts being done.
???????????
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Lets say A take the viking ride and tell me I will love it the most. B take the roller coaster and tell me I will enjoy tis ride the most. Wat conclusion can we gather from it ? Surely A and B cannot be correct at the same time. A shouldn't come to the conclusion tat if he thoroughly enjoyed the viking ride, it must definitely be the best one around. In fact both may be wrong. Conclusion: u telling me your experience with christainity doesn't really mean a thing to me nor prove tat christainity is right.
Good, but can I say the conclusion is : take your ride in every vikings and come back n tell me, wun it be more convincing? No offence. Take care man. -
Since Bible didn't mention that animals die in Eden or not and you didn't have any scientific evidence to say so, then let just don't assume they won't die in Eden, okay? Maybe both of us should put this into the file of "unknown
U say tis even though there is no sign of death from genesis 1 to 3. Never mind, let shelve it as suchActually I have an idea of how human physically don't die, but it is too complex to explain here, I will start another thread to explain that. Here we talk about life as a whole, which include our soul. When our physical body die, our soul still live.
No, I meant death as the end of the physical body, not soul. IMO there is no such thing as soul. Let just use the medical term then, BRAIN DEAD. WHen a person is brain dead, he is considered to have died. U can tell me after life after death etc but no one see it or prove it. Anyone can add any thing they want to wat happened after death. Therefore in the case of forgiving, god has not done tat since we still suffer death.I didn't know middle east history and I didn't know they keep another hictorical records as well other than Bible. So, I have no comment.
They do keep history because the bible is just another religion. There r other religions existing tat time. Furthermore u r not suppose to add in any items into the bible, therefore they cannot update history ?Since God giving Adam and Eve the freedom to choose and warn them specifically, God must already ensure that they atleast know what is good for them and what is bad for them. God must already ensure that they have the sufficient knowledge and can not be easily "deceiving", if not their own free will of choice. So, they are accountable for their decision made.
Tat is your opinion and the bible does not specifically say tat they already know wat is wrong or right. Who tell u tat they already have sufficient knowledge not to be easily deceived ? They claimed they r deceived isn't it ? God did not deny tat they r deceived, so he punish the snake too isn't it ? U want to tell god he is wrong tat adam and eve r not deceived ? They r not accountable for their act since they do not know. But nevertheless, god still punish them accordingly.What you trying to explain here are just simply based on your assumptions. Assume that they don't know what is "good", assume that they didn't have enough knowledge to prevent being "deceiving". Why can't you just accept that they know it is wrong and yet they choose to did it?
Why can't u accept the fact tat they were deceived and they do not know wat is right or wrong. Even god accept the fact tat they were deceived, yet u can't ? If they knew wat is right or wrong, then they wouldn't have to eat the fruit isn't it ? They did it because they were deceived into doing it.MAJORITYÂ…shallow marine organismÂ… I didnÂ’t say we found no dinosaurs or human fossil throughout history..read my passage again if u ever read it. You can check up the definition of shallow marine organism. Dun have much time nw to be in forum.
U should try to use more bold, italic or quote button on the top of the body content... I have trouble trying to know wat additional stuff u had added.
WHy don't u show me the link or facts tat most r marine organism ? IMO I thought there is no such trends.You are making claims as well? Does that mean your claims are expensive? Really, donÂ’t mean to be offensive. Jiu Shi Lun ShiÂ….
No, my claims r cheap as well.I can say any claims within my imagination isn't it ? Kids can claim things too. However so does the claims from bible too.???????????
In the end non-believer r gonna go to hell no matter wat they do. ISn't tat a worse punishment compared to believers ?Good, but can I say the conclusion is : take your ride in every vikings and come back n tell me, wun it be more convincing? No offence. Take care man.
No, u don't have the time to ride every ride in the world. There r probably few thousands viking rides. Wat is the best u can do is make observation as which one appears to be more thrilling, and not blindly believe anyone who claims their own experiences. -
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U should try to use more bold, italic or quote button on the top of the body content... I have trouble trying to know wat additional stuff u had added.
WHy don't u show me the link or facts tat most r marine organism ? IMO I thought there is no such trends.
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sorry....tts y u repeating some qns again...can't read my reply clearly.
http://evolutionfairytale.com/articles_debates/fossil_illusion.htm
a trend wld nt b an appropriate word to use here as we are toking about factual recordings.
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No, my claims r cheap as well.I can say any claims within my imagination isn't it ? Kids can claim things too. However so does the claims from bible too.
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Everyone has their own right. That's called freewill given by God.
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In the end non-believer r gonna go to hell no matter wat they do. ISn't tat a worse punishment compared to believers ?
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Guess you missed the part on what I have wrote on God's forgiveness and salvation.
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No, u don't have the time to ride every ride in the world. There r probably few thousands viking rides. Wat is the best u can do is make observation as which one appears to be more thrilling, and not blindly believe anyone who claims their own experiences.
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yeah of coz no time to take every ride in the world...but one is more than none, observation is never as close to experiencing it, rite? You observe couples then u know what love is? -
Biblical references to show tat the earth is flat...
Bible references: In Isaiah [11:12], Ezekiel [7:2] it states that the Earth has four corners. In Revelation [7:1], four angels were "standing on the four corners of the earth". In Daniel [4:10-11, 20], it refers to seeing to the end of the Earth; and then seeing all kingdoms of the world in Matthew [4:8] and Luke [4:5] (implying a flat, rather than spherical Earth). Revelation [1:7]: "Behold, he is coming with the clouds! Every eye shall see him..."
Daniel 4:7-8, "I saw a tree of great height at the center of the world. It was large and strong, with its top touching the heavens, and it could be seen from the ends of the earth." This was allegedly an inspired dream, yet it conveys a flat-earth concept, because no matter how tall a tree would be, people on the other side of a spherical earth could not see it.
Matthew 4:8, "The devil took him (Jesus) to a very high mountain and displayed before him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence...." The only plausible reason for the "very high mountain" was that the altitude would make it possible to see to the ends of the earth. Only on a flat earth would this be remotely possible, so the New Testament writers were as ignorant as the Old.
In Genesis 11:4, the people wanted to build a tower up to heaven. If you look at the graphics above, you can see their concept of heavenly bodies under the dome, not all that far away. Presumably, the Lord was afraid they would be able to accomplish their plan, so he caused them to speak various languages. This, of course, is not the reason people speak different languages, but nothing is too fantastic for the ignorant to believe.
Others: Deut. 5:8; 13:7; 28:64; 33:17; I Samuel 2:10; Psalms 48:10; 61:2; 65:5; 88(89):11-12; 98:3; 103:3; 104:2-3; 135; Proverbs 17:24; 30:4; Isaiah 5:2; 11:2; Jeremiah 25:33; Job 37:3; Revelation 20:8., Isaiah 40:22; Job 22:14; Amos 9:6; Matthew 24:31. 11
In short, the cosmology of the Bible draws heavily from the cosmology of the Babylonian and Sumerians. That is, it is basically a picture of a flat earth. (As a side note, this doesn't reflect favorably on the Bible being the word of God. Why would God provide a confusing and most times wrong picture of the Earth and universe? Why would it be a view held by prior civilizations rather than a correct one?)Everyone has their own right. That's called freewill given by God
U r still not answering the questions tat the claims from the bible can be cheap as wellGuess you missed the part on what I have wrote on God's forgiveness and salvation.
Guess tat u have missed the part where non-believers r certain to go to hell regardless of wat they do.yeah of coz no time to take every ride in the world...but one is more than none, observation is never as close to experiencing it, rite? You observe couples then u know what love is?
In the end, it still meant tat u telling me your experience means nothing. Other people r telling me the same experience from the view of other religions. I too had experience in "rides" before as well. I had went to a church before and I used to be a taoist when I was dead young. Sadly these experiences prove to lack thrill compared with being a free thinker. -
Well, it is hard for me to do the research and answer you back the "flat Earth" doubts..... why don't you read the research done by other long time ago about this issue? Like I said, the Bible already exist more than thousands years, most doubts already clarified...
http://www.tektonics.org/af/earthshape.html[/url] -
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U r still not answering the questions tat the claims from the bible can be cheap as well.
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Sure I can answer you straightaway. No they are nt. They are nt for they are God's words which have saved many lives...and GodÂ’s works.
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Guess tat u have missed the part where non-believers r certain to go to hell regardless of wat they do.
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Your 0.01% disbelief that Heaven exists has contradict your belief that God never exist. Deep inside your heart, you know God is up there. If you donÂ’t believe thereÂ’s God, I wld have an 100% answer YES or NO on whether Heaven exists, from you. Can I say that?
Salvation cannot be earned. ItÂ’s a giftÂ…
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In the end, it still meant tat u telling me your experience means nothing.
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Seeing is believing. Have we met before?
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Other people r telling me the same experience from the view of other religions. I too had experience in "rides" before as well. I had went to a church before and I used to be a taoist when I was dead young. Sadly these experiences prove to lack thrill compared with being a free thinker.
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We are nt toking about viking experience here. nt giant drop watsoever... It's up to you to determine your own life.
Going to a church once doesn't make u christian my friend....
when u went to the church, u only wanted all the truth from Christians in that church, but nt from God, who has it all.
Take good care. -
Sure I can answer you straightaway. No they are nt. They are nt for they are God's words which have saved many lives...and GodÂ’s works.
The whole thingy about tis claming is about whether god exists or not Frankly u r not giving any concrete answer back... other religion scripture also saves life and claims they r god's word, or the truth too. Anyone can make claims. Anyone can claim a god and claim it does certainly action. U r going back one whole round again.Your 0.01% disbelief that Heaven exists has contradict your belief that God never exist. Deep inside your heart, you know God is up there. If you donÂ’t believe thereÂ’s God, I wld have an 100% answer YES or NO on whether Heaven exists, from you. Can I say that?
I left a 0.01% is because I felt I am a bit open minded and may believe in a religion if all the evidences points to tat fact. If u want me to give a yes or not answer, at tis point of time, I do not believe the existence of heaven. I have no problems of saying tat. Then let me ask u, do u absolutely believe tat your religion is true ? Do u have any doubts tat your religion could be wrong, and tat science or other religion may be the right one tat describe all the past events ?
I know wat is your reply gonna be, at tis point in time u r probably gonna say yes. However I just hope tat in your honest heart, u r having doubts in certain areas.Salvation cannot be earned. ItÂ’s a giftÂ…
I have stated many times it is not really gift since there is a condition attached to it. It is much like getting a free watch after attending a dumb insurance or tour seminar.Seeing is believing. Have we met before
Why will I believe u when I see u ? I don't see any connections here.We are nt toking about viking experience here. nt giant drop watsoever... It's up to you to determine your own life.
The reason why we r talking about silly viking rides is because I am telling to tell u personal experiences means naugt. It is not any concrete evidences and there r contradictory answers for it. People of other religion experience facinating stuffs as well.Going to a church once doesn't make u christian my friend....
Do u know me ? Do u know wat attitude I have when I went to a church ? Sorry man, I never ask even a single question in tat experience. Truth from god ? The only way is to read the scripture isn't it ? Trust me I had done tat.
when u went to the church, u only wanted all the truth from Christians in that church, but nt from God, who has it all. -
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The whole thingy about tis claming is about whether god exists or not Frankly u r not giving any concrete answer back... other religion scripture also saves life and claims they r god's word, or the truth too. Anyone can make claims. Anyone can claim a god and claim it does certainly action. U r going back one whole round again.
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God reveals to you in many ways if you believe and have faith in Him. I canÂ’t give you any concrete answer coz you have to find it yourself. No one else here can help you if you have no faith in Him. Big round? Your perception?
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I left a 0.01% is because I felt I am a bit open minded and may believe in a religion if all the evidences points to tat fact. If u want me to give a yes or not answer, at tis point of time, I do not believe the existence of heaven. I have no problems of saying tat. Then let me ask u, do u absolutely believe tat your religion is true ? Do u have any doubts tat your religion could be wrong, and tat science or other religion may be the right one tat describe all the past events ?
I know wat is your reply gonna be, at tis point in time u r probably gonna say yes. However I just hope tat in your honest heart, u r having doubts in certain areas.
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Last time used to have doubts nt in certain but many areas, but now I absolutely believe in God. No doubts at allÂ….deep down from my heartÂ…. Believe it or nt.
Science spot-on all the past events? I will just reserve that to everyone else, who has read this, to comment.
HmmÂ…so you are easily affected by what people say and how they structured their words. You donÂ’t believe that Heaven exists, yet you have 0.01%? 100% = 99.99%?
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I have stated many times it is not really gift since there is a condition attached to it. It is much like getting a free watch after attending a dumb insurance or tour seminar.
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Then it shall be a dumb insurance or tour seminar if you still perceive it that way. Or you just wanted to see what you want to see?
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The reason why we r talking about silly viking rides is because I am telling to tell u personal experiences means naugt. It is not any concrete evidences and there r contradictory answers for it. People of other religion experience facinating stuffs as well.
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Dun understand what you are trying to say here.
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Do u know me ? Do u know wat attitude I have when I went to a church ? Sorry man, I never ask even a single question in tat experience. Truth from god ? The only way is to read the scripture isn't it ? Trust me I had done tat.
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Nope. ItÂ’s of no use reading Bible without any or little faith in Him. -
God reveals to you in many ways if you believe and have faith in Him. I canÂ’t give you any concrete answer coz you have to find it yourself. No one else here can help you if you have no faith in Him. Big round? Your perception?
Nope. ItÂ’s of no use reading Bible without any or little faith in Him.
Then tat is funny... U r telling me to have faith in him before I have faith in him. U r saying tat those who read the bible must already have faith in him before reading it ? Then doesn't tat means no one read the bible before converting to christianity ? They actually join christianity because of the people there and not about the religon. If u want to pursuade people to join christianity, u should hide the bible from them ? Why ? Got a skeleton in the cupboard u wish to hide ? Obviously no one will have the time to join in a religion for a 30 days trial period to see if god will communicate with them either.
Tat bring us to a question... why do u have faith in him in the first place ? No concrete evidence is presented to u at all and u r not supposed to read and understand their scripture. Suddenly faith just pop up and replace your logics ? Is tat what christians expect when they try to convert the others ?HmmÂ…so you are easily affected by what people say and how they structured their words. You donÂ’t believe that Heaven exists, yet you have 0.01%? 100% = 99.99%?
Tat is being open minded. If u ask me if Newton is 100% right on his theory of force, I will also say I believe in it 99.9999 percent. Who knows someone in the future will come out with a totally new revolutionary theory tat replaced newton's law. But from wat I see, it is very very very unlikely. When I take a glass of water from the tap, and u ask me if it is safe to drink or not, I will also give u an answer of 99.999 percent safe since tap water in singapore is drinkable. However I am prepared for the possibility tat the water container may have rusted or some other freak accident occur tat may render the water undrinkable as well. Anything wrong with tis ? Tis is not about being affected by wat people say. It is about being prepared and open minded.The reason why we r talking about silly viking rides is because I am telling to tell u personal experiences means naugt. It is not any concrete evidences and there r contradictory answers for it. People of other religion experience facinating stuffs as well.
Don't understand ? let me explain.
Your personal experiences is NOT meaningful. There r a lot of people who had extreme personal experiences when they r in a different religion. Hindis claimed that the goddes they have is weeping, buddhist claims able to see the past lives of people as animals etc. Some even claim their incurable sickness get better when they start believing in a religion. SOme even claim their god or watever is talking with them. What is the conclusion ? NOthing ! It is not a concrete evidence and different religions have their versions of miracles or incredible personal experiences. U can't tell if any of the religion is right just by hearing the members personal experiences.Then it shall be a dumb insurance or tour seminar if you still perceive it that way. Or you just wanted to see what you want to see?
If u feel tat the insurance or tour seminar is dumb, then probably the subject matter is equally dumb as well. It is a good description for your idea of "gift". It is not about seeing the things I want to see, but seeing the things tat were presented over to me. -
Hi SIS, I am back
Read all ur arguements here, no difference from what u expressed to me b4.
Hm...now my approach to u is not to "argue/ exchange thoughts" with u, but rather to show u what is life.
Maybe words from me is not concrete enough for u, hope this pHD, even some from MIT could help u.
http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/index.shtml#hot_topics
Our Scholars
Reasons To Believe keeps attuned to the frontiers of scientific research and tries to integrate these findings with biblical theology.
Science Scholars
Many of our scientific scholars are currently or formerly active as research and teaching faculty at secular institutions. Dr. Hugh Ross, former research fellow at Caltech directs these research and integration efforts. Other contributors include:
Lynn Carta, Ph.D.,USDA, Beltsville
Guillermo Gonzalez, Ph.D., Iowa State University
Walter Bradley, Ph.D., Texas A & M;
Mark Clark, Ph.D., Cal State San Bernardino
David Rogstad, Ph.D., Jet Propulsion Laboratories
George Lebo, Ph.D., University of Florida
Gerald Cleaver, Ph.D., Baylor University
Robert DiSilvestro, Ph.D., Ohio State University
Michael Strauss, Ph.D., University of Oklahoma
Alex Metherell, M.D. and Ph.D., former researcher at University of California Irvine.
Eric Klumpe, Ph.D., University of Texas
Erica Carlson, Ph.D., Purdue University
Jeffrey Zweerink, Ph.D., UCLA
Doctoral Candidates
Sam Conner, MIT
Gary Holt, Caltech
Robert Vandewater, UCLA.
Theology and Philosophy Scholars
The science team is backed by a board of reviewers, including theology and philosophy professors, pastors, and experts in biblical languages-and more scientists. The list includes:
John Rae, Ph.D.
Norman Geisler, Ph.D
Earl Radmacher Th.D.
Dallas Willard, Ph.D.
Craig Keener, Ph.D.
Walter Kaiser, Ph.D.
Mick Ukleja, Ph.D.
J. P. Moreland, Ph.D.
Kyle Cudworth, Ph.D.
Allan Sandage, Ph.D. (Alvoord Prize winner)
About life after death, dun believe in spirits?
http://www.fmbr.org/abstracts/about_spirits.htm
by
ROBERT L. SHACKLETT ( obtain Phd in Caltech in physics. Emeritus Professor of Physics at California State University (CSU), Fresno. Before his retirement in 1979 he spent 24 years on the physics faculty, with time out for administrative service as Assistant Dean and Dean of the School of Graduate Studies. ) hope he is smart enough for u.
WILLIAM C. GOUGH
He obtained his BS and MS degrees in electrical engineering from Princeton University and did advanced work at Harvard University. Since 1988 he has pursued full time his study of the science of consciousness. Prior to this, he was Fusion Power Manager at the Electric Power Research Institute, and later the Director, DOE Stanford Site Office responsible for the high energy physics and synchrotron radiation research at the Stanford Linear Accelerator Center. His published works appear in Scientific American, the Environmental Engineer's Handbook, and other books/journals.
A good quotation for u, SIS
Quote: "I regard the existence of discarnate spirits as scientifically proved and I no longer refer to the skeptic as having any right to speak on the subject. Any man who does not accept the existence of discarnate spirits and the proof of it is either ignorant or a moral coward. I give him short shrift, and do not propose any longer to argue with him on the supposition that he knows anything about the subject."
—Professor James Hyslop ( Columbia University), Life After Death, head of the American Society for Physical Research
so, my first step to u is to show u that Christian is not a believe that
1) go against science
2) have no scientific research
Noah Arcs, hard to believe?? visit here
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/noah%27s_ark.htm
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First, to give u guys a reality check
http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/bogus.html
Even from your christian answer website,
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a001.html
Unfortunately, return visits to proposed sites have produced no further evidence, the whereabouts of all photographs are presently unknown, and different sightings do not suggest the same location on the mountain. Furthermore, Astronaut James Irwin has since died, a purported eyewitness has recently recanted publicly, and there have been few new expeditions up the mountain in the 1990s. Further expeditions have taken place in the new millennium, but no proof of the Ark has yet been found.
Tat is a bogus. It is formed naturally. Just because u see the shape of a dustbowl doesn't make it Noah's ark. There r some more interesting stories on it
Yet, as preposterous as this story seems, there are people in the twentieth century who claim they have found Noah's ark. They call themselves "arkeologists." Yes, they say that when the flood receded, Noah and his zoo were perched upon the top of Mt. Ararat in Turkey. Presumably, at that time, all the animals dispersed to the far recesses of the earth. How the animals got to the different continents, we are not told. Perhaps they floated there on debris. More problematic is how so many species survived when they had been reduced to just one pair or seven pairs of creatures. Also, you would think that the successful species that had the furthest to travel, would have left a trail of offspring along the way. What evidence is there that all species originated in Turkey? That's what the record should look like if the ark landed on Mt. Ararat.
During his show, Jammal produced what he called "sacred wood" from the ark, which he later admitted was wood taken from railroad tracks in Long Beach, California, which he had hardened by cooking in an oven. He also prepared other fake wood by frying a piece of California pine on his kitchen stove in a mix of wine, iodine, sweet-and-sour and teriyaki sauces. He also admitted that he had never been to Turkey. The program was produced by Sun International Pictures, based in Salt Lake City, and responsible for several pseudo-documentaries on Nostradamus, the Bermuda Triangle, the Shroud of Turin, and UFOs.Maybe words from me is not concrete enough for u, hope this pHD, even some from MIT could help u.
Frankly, the names u showed me prove nothing. The buddhist, muslims and freethinkers themselves etc also have their version of scientists who support their idea. So who has the most number of scientists means they r right ? If u look at figures, 93% of the members of the National Academy of Sciences (USA) are nontheists. U just come out with a list of scientists from a 5 billion population of the world... frankly it is not impressive...
LEt me give a few quotes here as well
The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted [italics his], in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am convinced that such behavior on the part of representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress. In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal God, that is, give up that source of fear and hope which in the past placed such vast power in the hands of priests. In their labors they will have to avail themselves of those forces which are capable of cultivating the Good, the True, and the Beautiful in humanity itself. This is, to be sure, a more difficult but an incomparably more worthy task
Albert Einstein
My objection to Christianity is that it is infinitely cruel, infinitely selfish, and, I might add, infinitely absurd.
The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason, observation, and experience merits everlasting pain, is too absurd for refutation, and can be relieved only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance called 'faith'
Robert Ingersoll
Religion prevents our children from having a rational education; religion prevents us from removing the fundamental causes of war; religion prevents us from teaching the ethic of scientific cooperation in place of the old fierce doctrines of sin and punishment. It is possible that mankind is on the threshold of a golden age; but, if so, it will be necessary first to slay the dragon that guards the door, and this dragon is religion
Religion is something left over from the infancy of our intelligence, it will fade away as we adopt reason and science as our guidelines
We may define "faith" as the firm belief in something for which there is no evidence. Where there is evidence, no one speaks of "faith." We do not speak of faith that two and two are four or that the earth is round. We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence. The substitution of emotion for evidence is apt to lead to strife, since different groups, substitute different emotions.
Bertrand Russell -
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Then tat is funny... U r telling me to have faith in him before I have faith in him. U r saying tat those who read the bible must already have faith in him before reading it ? Then doesn't tat means no one read the bible before converting to christianity ? They actually join christianity because of the people there and not about the religon. If u want to pursuade people to join christianity, u should hide the bible from them ? Why ? Got a skeleton in the cupboard u wish to hide ? Obviously no one will have the time to join in a religion for a 30 days trial period to see if god will communicate with them either.
Tat bring us to a question... why do u have faith in him in the first place ? No concrete evidence is presented to u at all and u r not supposed to read and understand their scripture. Suddenly faith just pop up and replace your logics ? Is tat what christians expect when they try to convert the others ?
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Nope, no implication in my sentence in telling u to have faith in Him before reading the Bible...For me, I submitted myself to God not through reading Bible first....but God's words are revealed through Jesus and The Bible. As for your claim that there are some ppl who join Christianity just because of the ppl there, yes, there are, but that does nt prove that God does not exist. Persuade is nt the word, to spread His Gospel words and His works would be appropriate... stupidissmart, I have nothing to hide, I dun gain anything from you if you accept Christ. I will be happy for you. But no obligations here. Why do I have faith in Him? If I tell you, would you believe? If I tell you unbelievable things, would you believe? Obviously, I’m nt the person to tell you, really…and the ppl you have met so far. God is the source of all truth...If you do really really want to seek the truth, God may reveal to you through someone else assigned or through something ….somehow someway someday….rest assured my logical sensibilities are still pretty ‘intact’.
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Tat is being open minded. If u ask me if Newton is 100% right on his theory of force, I will also say I believe in it 99.9999 percent. Who knows someone in the future will come out with a totally new revolutionary theory tat replaced newton's law. But from wat I see, it is very very very unlikely. When I take a glass of water from the tap, and u ask me if it is safe to drink or not, I will also give u an answer of 99.999 percent safe since tap water in singapore is drinkable. However I am prepared for the possibility tat the water container may have rusted or some other freak accident occur tat may render the water undrinkable as well. Anything wrong with tis ? Tis is not about being affected by wat people say. It is about being prepared and open minded.
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I exactly think the same way as you do regarding NewtonÂ’s theories and the tap water etc. why ? they are man-made...imperfect is its shadows...how many old theories have been proven wrong and what ISO standards...99.99%...what dare to say 100%?
But I have to say otherwise for the existence of God... It either 100 or 0...
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Don't understand ? let me explain.
Your personal experiences is NOT meaningful. There r a lot of people who had extreme personal experiences when they r in a different religion. Hindis claimed that the goddes they have is weeping, buddhist claims able to see the past lives of people as animals etc. Some even claim their incurable sickness get better when they start believing in a religion. SOme even claim their god or watever is talking with them. What is the conclusion ? NOthing ! It is not a concrete evidence and different religions have their versions of miracles or incredible personal experiences. U can't tell if any of the religion is right just by hearing the members personal experiences.
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Well, again here, I really really think I shouldnÂ’t comment further not because of evasion of your questions but not to spin off other endless debates from ppl of different religions, or atheists.
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If u feel tat the insurance or tour seminar is dumb, then probably the subject matter is equally dumb as well. It is a good description for your idea of "gift". It is not about seeing the things I want to see, but seeing the things tat were presented over to me.
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Actually I also practise Buddhism and talk to Lord Krishna for fun sometimes.
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Nope, no implication in my sentence in telling u to have faith in Him before reading the Bible...
Nope. ItÂ’s of no use reading Bible without any or little faith in Him.
Why don't u explain tis sentence to me then ? Haven't u implied tat the bible should only be read by christians and no others, since only christians have faith in it ? Now u r telling me there r no implications ? Please explain to me wat do u mean by the above statement.Persuade is nt the word, to spread His Gospel words and His works would be appropriate...
Then brainwash may be a better phrase to use.I have nothing to hide, I dun gain anything from you if you accept Christ.
I have nothing to hide as well. I don't gain anything if u reject christ either. I will only be happy for uGod is the source of all truth...
If god is the source of all truth, then he won't lie about many things tat was proven wrong. We won't even need science as well and go back to the day where everyone just read the bible.rest assured my logical sensibilities are still pretty ‘intact’.
From the things u said, I really doubt it. Perhaps your emotions had gotten over your logicsI exactly think the same way as you do regarding NewtonÂ’s theories and the tap water etc. why ? they are man-made...imperfect is its shadows...how many old theories have been proven wrong and what ISO standards...99.99%...what dare to say 100%?
Tat is the thing. How do u know u made the right decision on your religion ? It is still a man-made decision isn't it ? U r a man isn't it ? Even theories gathered from thousands of scholars and many years may turn out to be wrong, wat make u think your impression tat "bible is right, other religion is wrong" is the truth ? It could jolly well u r wrong while some other people r correct ! From studies of probability, it is very highly likely tat the religion u know of it is wrong, judging by the response of many different people throughout the world. Doesn't tat show u r already close minded by judging your own decisions to be perfect while others r wrong ?
But I have to say otherwise for the existence of God... It either 100 or 0...