Creationist vs Evolutionist
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You said it yourself. Whatever religion we belong to, we have grounds to believe in things we accept as truths. These grounds may be through experience, or factual events; experiences that we have gone through personally. And that is enough for us to be anchored in these truths. These reasons have been put forward time and time again but you have turned a blind eye to it.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Can, why not ? I can't stop u anyway.
Let me ask a question. People believe in things only when they have grounds to believe it to be the truth. Why do u believe in something tat appears to go against all evidence and logics ?
Do we change beliefs every moment we face contradictions? Did Thomas Edison give up everytime he encounter a failure? Did the unknown stop Einstein from making his theories into laws of physics? Do you give up hope in something because it has proven difficult, or someone speaks against it? Would I give up my faith because of something that puts doubt in my mind? NO! Because the positive experiences that my Christian walk has put me through outweighs the problems the world can dish out to me. I do not live by logic alone, I am an emotional being with soul and spirit that no science can satisfy.
Thank you for reading.
Within Etermnal Hope, many topics were started to clarify doubts from a Christian point of view. You chose to state you point of view. That is fine with me, but please know when to stop. Your neverending and repeating arguments have become a nuisance. I believe many have heard your views and read it more than they want. It has made my experience in this forum unenjoyable, and I believe I speak for a few others. I do not know how this can be changed, but I wish you can post only when necessary without disturbing harmony (perhaps when you think Eternal Hope is a cult, or when we're putting people's lives in danger, or we're cheating people's money). -
Sillyme, I echo your sentiments too.....
To reiterate one of my earlier points, I do not encourage any Christians to enter into a non-Christian forums to impose your view there. Whatever exchange that needed to be done, please do it in the spirit of peace, and if your OPINIONS are not accepted, please leave. Follow the examples of the disciples of Christ, who, if not welcome in a city, shake the dust off your sandals and leave.
Any prolong and emotion arguments there will only bring shame to the good name of Christ. -
I think Chrisitians should be open to other opinions and dare to face challenges as well. I don't like the idea of "ask those who don't agree with me to leave"Originally posted by Chin Eng:Sillyme, I echo your sentiments too.....
To reiterate one of my earlier points, I do not encourage any Christians to enter into a non-Christian forums to impose your view there. Whatever exchange that needed to be done, please do it in the spirit of peace, and if your OPINIONS are not accepted, please leave. Follow the examples of the disciples of Christ, who, if not welcome in a city, shake the dust off your sandals and leave.
Any prolong and emotion arguments there will only bring shame to the good name of Christ. -
I am wondering yesterday, when did the ancient civilization came about? If we consider Evolution, there seems to be a gap between the Lucy-ape like primates to the Egytian, Mesopotamia,Chinese, India, Mayan and Hebrew.
The answer is simple. Men do not know how to write during tat period. Therefore they cannot leave any noticable history.If those facts were true, does that mean that today's Egyptians and Chinese are more evolved than say the Caucasians? (no harm speculating right?)
No. It just meant tat the people in china and egytian know how to write earlier than caucasians.
I will reply more later -
Yup, like what SIS said, even during the gaps, primates or early humans arent so developed yet as to create a writing system.
Unlike any religious group which try to explain away everything, scientists on the other hand, try to find out what happened during this period. From nothing, we were able to discover more bones and other archaelogical evidence.
Watch more Discovery Channel, you will come to know that stuff scientists know... a lot too. -
Sometimes, things appear being "explained away" because it's attributed to something that is not convincing to you but it doesn't mean it's not true. It's easy to believe in science because there is physical evidence. If you don't believe in a divine being, then of course it will appear to be "explained away". Christians are not hillybillies who stay in the house and read the bible only. They also watch TV, and yes Discovery Channel and National Geographic too. Believing in a religion doesn't take away one's ability to reason. But one's process of reasoning depends on his past experiences and present circumstances.
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Well, contrary to this belief, i seen many people who let religion take away the ability to reason.Originally posted by sayso:Sometimes, things appear being "explained away" because it's attributed to something that is not convincing to you but it doesn't mean it's not true. It's easy to believe in science because there is physical evidence. If you don't believe in a divine being, then of course it will appear to be "explained away". Christians are not hillybillies who stay in the house and read the bible only. They also watch TV, and yes Discovery Channel and National Geographic too. Believing in a religion doesn't take away one's ability to reason. But one's process of reasoning depends on his past experiences and present circumstances.
Btw, religion ISNT about reasoning anyway. Its faith, not some things which can be logically argued.... -
Actually it is not really about "don't agree with me leave". There are many ways to discuss any issue, one of it is politely by which if both parties reach an impasse, agree to disagree and move on. Another way is continue to throw rebuttals after rebuttals which leaves a sour aftertaste. There is also the question of the spirit in which the questions are asked, is it for the purpose of clarification, or is it for the purpose of fault finding? If a clarification has been made, even if it is in disagreement of one's mindset, than accept that as face value. However, if one is here to pick a fight, then it is useless.Originally posted by burntan:I think Chrisitians should be open to other opinions and dare to face challenges as well. I don't like the idea of "ask those who don't agree with me to leave"
Would you agree that some forumites are more rude than others? In light of this question, would you than still feel the need to respond objectively if one continues to be caustic?
For example, you have been very polite in your questions (in our other encounters in Chit Chat). You are not rude nor do you insist your way. Here's not to say that I agree with you theological opinions (many are misinformed). I have never found fault in your tone. Please continue to write. -
Originally posted by laurence82:Watch more Discovery Channel, you will come to know that stuff scientists know... a lot too.
the last time I recommended Discover Channel, someone alleged that such a channel may be sponsored by the powerful Catholic Church...
Hope I am not one of them...Originally posted by laurence82:Well, contrary to this belief, i seen many people who let religion take away the ability to reason.
so true.... which is why there is really no point to rebut point for point. Faith is not something that someone without it can understand.Originally posted by laurence82:Btw, religion ISNT about reasoning anyway. Its faith, not some things which can be logically argued.... -
You maybe right, somethings cannot be reasoned logically. But certain forms of reasoning is still in place. For Christians, Jesus said "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." (Matthew 22:37). Mind being the vessel of reasoning, that should be the way.Originally posted by laurence82:Well, contrary to this belief, i seen many people who let religion take away the ability to reason.
Btw, religion ISNT about reasoning anyway. Its faith, not some things which can be logically argued.... -
What Discovery Channel is sponsored by the Catholic Church?? No pun on the RC, but there is too much conspiracies goin around....
To add on, one must distinguish between argument for faith, and argument of facts. Sayso, the section u quoted refers to argument for faith. You reason out in ur head God exists, for lots of logical reasons and stuff which may come to u as facts, but its not so for many others. This apply to texts from Bibles, miracles, and other important milestone in Christian history.
On the other hand, scientists and historians do it differently. They do come out with solid evidence for certain things, and the method for discovering new findings are differently, They must arduously research, derive and prove to the whole scieintific or historical community. Better yet, you can debunk the old theories like what Einstein did.
Of course there are gray areas. Historians and scientists nowadays attempt to link or deprove the myths in certain beliefs or legends by comparing them to historical and scientific evidence. One such question is "where did Jesus spend his early childhood?' and another is by potraying Jesus as an ordinary man, but has great charisma and so on. Hence, the start of Christianity.
Of course nobody who is in the Christian community can start debunking the existence of God. It purely for individual argument or self reasoning, or even faith. Thats why I always emphasise - faith is yours alone. When someone attempt to put it as the 'universal truth for everyone' and try to stuff in their throats.....
that..is another topic for discussion althogether..... -
Thank you sayso and laurence for your input =)
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Thx for posting.Originally posted by the.raven:whoa, like that also can ah? back to the future??
The world we live in now, to be exact is 4D. The 4th dimension is time. Therfore, Einstein in his thory of relativity, time is dependant on speed of an moving object. For eg, if u (20 years old) could sit in a shuttle which goes at the speed of light, go to pluto or somewhere far and come back to earth, u might be just 24 years old when u reach earth, but ur galfren ( at first same age as u) might have past away due to old age.
Lets say...if we live in 2D, the 3rd dimension ( height) is always a constant. To God, he does not live in the dimension we live in. We are bounded by time. It is against logic to ask when is God's b'day because he is not bounded by time. The question initiate with "when" do not apply to Him. He is the beginning and the end of time. We can measure date / time because we are bounded by this 4 dimensions.
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You said it yourself. Whatever religion we belong to, we have grounds to believe in things we accept as truths. These grounds may be through experience, or factual events; experiences that we have gone through personally. And that is enough for us to be anchored in these truths. These reasons have been put forward time and time again but you have turned a blind eye to it.
I have seen tis arguments many times before. And I have always put forward another argument to it. The things u had experienced before is not unique. Many people from other religion felt the same thing. He felt tat his religion was true because of certain encounters, u felt it is true because of your encounters, wat conclusion can we reached ? Both can't be right u see. Tis is still not a sign tat your religion is right, and there still isn't any convincing evidence behind it.Do we change beliefs every moment we face contradictions? Did Thomas Edison give up everytime he encounter a failure? Did the unknown stop Einstein from making his theories into laws of physics? Do you give up hope in something because it has proven difficult, or someone speaks against it? Would I give up my faith because of something that puts doubt in my mind? NO! Because the positive experiences that my Christian walk has put me through outweighs the problems the world can dish out to me. I do not live by logic alone, I am an emotional being with soul and spirit that no science can satisfy.
Thomas edison give out using certain material for his filaments when it was tested to fail. Einstein based his beliefs on evidence, and use it to prove its theories. Doesn't all these show tat evidence and facts r more important than plain belief ? I am not asking u to give up on your task when u have a chance of succeed. I am telling u there r overwhelming evidence tat proves to the contrary and u should do a reality check. Doctors give up saving a person's life when he saw tat his head was severed away an hour ago. Engineers give up the use of certain materials when it was proven it cannot fit the specifications required. The doctor shouldn't waste time to save a person who is confirmed dead, and the engineering shouldn't insist using tat material when it was proven useless.Within Etermnal Hope, many topics were started to clarify doubts from a Christian point of view. You chose to state you point of view. That is fine with me, but please know when to stop. Your neverending and repeating arguments have become a nuisance. I believe many have heard your views and read it more than they want. It has made my experience in this forum unenjoyable, and I believe I speak for a few others. I do not know how this can be changed, but I wish you can post only when necessary without disturbing harmony (perhaps when you think Eternal Hope is a cult, or when we're putting people's lives in danger, or we're cheating people's money).
If u do not like certain arguments, don't read ! There r many threads, like the weekly thread in eternal hope where I never touch isn't it ? As said before, u want to close up your opinions only to christians ?Sometimes, things appear being "explained away" because it's attributed to something that is not convincing to you but it doesn't mean it's not true. It's easy to believe in science because there is physical evidence. If you don't believe in a divine being, then of course it will appear to be "explained away". Christians are not hillybillies who stay in the house and read the bible only. They also watch TV, and yes Discovery Channel and National Geographic too. Believing in a religion doesn't take away one's ability to reason. But one's process of reasoning depends on his past experiences and present circumstances.
I ask tis questions many times before. Wat do u view religion as ? A collection of folk stories, a book of law or a history text where they tell us of certain events. Another question is does faith requires reasoning ?so true.... which is why there is really no point to rebut point for point. Faith is not something that someone without it can understand.
I have said tis many times before... faith is blind... no one knows wat is correct or not using faith. U can say tat god creates the world, another person can say a pink elephant creates the world. It doesn't require any proving therefore u can claim anything u want !The world we live in now, to be exact is 4D. The 4th dimension is time. Therfore, Einstein in his thory of relativity, time is dependant on speed of an moving object. For eg, if u (20 years old) could sit in a shuttle which goes at the speed of light, go to pluto or somewhere far and come back to earth, u might be just 24 years old when u reach earth, but ur galfren ( at first same age as u) might have past away due to old age.
But god has given a measurement of time when he create the galaxy. Watever things u want to talk about dimensions bla bla bla is insignificant as it is a fact tat he had given us a unit of measurement in time. It is a day and he define a day explicitly as the passing of a morning and night. He can't be trying to be funny and tell us is a day when it is not a day isn't it ?
Lets say...if we live in 2D, the 3rd dimension ( height) is always a constant. To God, he does not live in the dimension we live in. We are bounded by time. It is against logic to ask when is God's b'day because he is not bounded by time. The question initiate with "when" do not apply to Him. He is the beginning and the end of time. We can measure date / time because we are bounded by this 4 dimensions. -
You forgot that I'm the mod here? How can I not read the things posted here?Originally posted by stupid:But god has given a measurement of time when he create the galaxy. Watever things u want to talk about dimensions bla bla bla is insignificant as it is a fact tat he had given us a unit of measurement in time. It is a day and he define a day explicitly as the passing of a morning and night. He can't be trying to be funny and tell us is a day when it is not a day isn't it ?
But on the other hand, if you don't like the things you posted here, you are not obligated to read or react. -
Why can't the church be wrong? Even the priest can be wrong? We are only human, we can be wrong. Unless you say Jesus arrest them... This theory also apply to uni graduate can be a criminal as well, doesn't mean that we shouldn't send out children to university.
Yup, the church can be wrong. U say it yourself. Then why do u follow its policies ? They tell u to tilth, it can be wrong isn't it ? They tell u being gay is a sin. It can be wrong too isn't it ? They tell u masturbate is a sin, and it is probably wrong too. So u really shouldn't listen to wat they say, as they can be as wrong as trying to house arrest scientists, burning witches and starting crusaders.It is easier for modern people to understand what written for people in the past than write some rocket science in the past and hope that they can understand isn't it? This should be obvious enough.
Then don't commit ! Don't go around telling people tat it is a fact when it is wrong ! Isn't tat already lying ?Again, it is based on your assumption that the bible support slavery.
I have stated some examples in the bible tat mention slavery. Jesus never abolish or attempt to abolish slavery but instead recommend u to hit them when they r not performing as expected. It is not really an assumption anymoreActually I don't believe that our Earth is just 6000 years old. Like I said b4, evolution can be created and started by God. However I do open to the possibility of everything just "pop-up" in days.
But the bible states tat the earth is only 6000 years old. Earth can't be billions of years and 6000 years old simultaneously isn't it ?The bible did say man created from dust, but it didn't say "NOT from evolution". The only "HOW" it mention is the material used, not the process. The "WHEN" it mention is just the starting, not the entire lenght of the process as well.
The HOW is by using dust and blowing breath in it. The procedures of the method has already been stated and explained. If tis is not sufficient to be accounted as HOW, then no matter wat is written there, it can never be classified as HOW. The WHEN is also on tat day. Men and Women r created on the same 6th day. Women is created by using Men's rib. Men should definitely be finished when he gives his rib on tat day isn't it ?None of the things mention in Bible is being proven incorrect. Yes, there are people like you who trying to prove that something wrong in Bible, but over thousands of years, nobody could. Isn't that hard proof enough? Do you reliaze that up to now, you still haven't anything wrong in Bible? But you just keep on saying that it is wrong and those history mention in it never happended.
Nobody could ? Or it is just refusing to admit to it ? The above example of an Old Earth has shown tat the bible is wrong. Many others things r proven wrong too. Galaxu is created in billions of years, not days. Noah Ark is not possible physically, men is evolved not created from dust, population studies as shown tat 6000 below years from one family is not enough to make a civilisation of 6 billions now. 1000 years had passed and judgement day has not occurred. Bats r not birds. Not enough ? U still need more examples ? -
I'm glad if you are indeed approaching this subject with an open mind. This thread has turned from a discussion between Creation and Evolution to some bashing and flaming thread.Originally posted by fandango:okie, we are on the verge of religion bashing again. can we take a step back.
You may treat this as a silly post but maybe someone would hold the answer to these queries.
I am wondering yesterday, when did the ancient civilization came about? If we consider Evolution, there seems to be a gap between the Lucy-ape like primates to the Egytian, Mesopotamia,Chinese, India, Mayan and Hebrew.
Some of the webpages gave birth of the civiliazation between 4000 - 6000BC.
One even suggested that the Chinese were the first to begin civilization, a good 1000 years before Egypt. I do not know how true these are, but rest assured, the site are not pro-christian, they are just purely history-themed sites.
So what happened between Lucy and the first civilization? StoneAge Man?
If those facts were true, does that mean that today's Egyptians and Chinese are more evolved than say the Caucasians? (no harm speculating right?)
Wouldn't it also be too big a coinsidence for all those StoneAge Man spread across the globe to begin their civilizations less than 1000 years apart?
Hmmm, if those facts were true, it does fall nicely with how old the world is according to the bible, between 6000 - 7000 years.
Again, i don't mind being bashed because of this post, but i would really appreciate it if someone can provide details with these queries. SIS maybe? Poopie-Head maybe?
I dont understand your question regarding 'StoneAge Man' and 1000 years. What is it about 1000 years? Where did u get that number anyway?
The different 'races' of the modern man today are not much different from each other, we are the same species, so there shouldn't be any 'race' being more 'evolved' than the other.
The world cannot be only 6000 years old (or max 10,000 yr old as suggested by some Young Earth Creationists). There are overwhelming evidences against this idea of a Young Earth.
As for Human Evolution, you can click here for some sort of a timeline. There is a considerable gap between "Lucy" (estimated over 3 mil years) and modern man.
IMO, Talk origins is the one stop website for all evolution related topics. Any topic related questions can almost always be found there, just use the search button... if you are interested...
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Well, this one I must agree with you. Even if you are a Buddhist, you won't 100% blindly listen to a monk isn't it? So, now can we agree that the Bible didn't said the Earth is flat and the Sun goes around the Earth?Originally posted by stupidissmart:Yup, the church can be wrong. U say it yourself. Then why do u follow its policies ? They tell u to tilth, it can be wrong isn't it ? They tell u being gay is a sin. It can be wrong too isn't it ? They tell u masturbate is a sin, and it is probably wrong too. So u really shouldn't listen to wat they say, as they can be as wrong as trying to house arrest scientists, burning witches and starting crusaders.
Since it is not wrong, then why it is consider lying? As long as we can understand what it trying to said, why so bother about bats is not bird? Like other forumers said, Bible is not a science journal.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Then don't commit ! Don't go around telling people tat it is a fact when it is wrong ! Isn't tat already lying ?
Didn't you watch the movie "The prince of Egypt"? If God agree to slavery, then why he send Moses to save them from Egypt?Originally posted by stupidissmart:I have stated some examples in the bible tat mention slavery. Jesus never abolish or attempt to abolish slavery but instead recommend u to hit them when they r not performing as expected. It is not really an assumption anymore
Maybe the day in 6 billions years ago is longer than the day in current?Originally posted by stupidissmart:But the bible states tat the earth is only 6000 years old. Earth can't be billions of years and 6000 years old simultaneously isn't it ?
We can have different defination of "HOW", it is up to you to choose which one you believe in. There can be other defination of "using Men's rib" as well.Originally posted by stupidissmart:The HOW is by using dust and blowing breath in it. The procedures of the method has already been stated and explained. If tis is not sufficient to be accounted as HOW, then no matter wat is written there, it can never be classified as HOW. The WHEN is also on tat day. Men and Women r created on the same 6th day. Women is created by using Men's rib. Men should definitely be finished when he gives his rib on tat day isn't it ?
The Bible is written in thousands years ago and for us to read until the judgement day. Something can't be explain now doesn't mean that they can't be explain in the future or they are wrong. Less than 10 years ago, doctor still think that appendicitis is an organ of no uses, now only people know that it is an organ for our immunity system. Compare your knowledge to God, who is better?Originally posted by stupidissmart:Nobody could ? Or it is just refusing to admit to it ? The above example of an Old Earth has shown tat the bible is wrong. Many others things r proven wrong too. Galaxu is created in billions of years, not days. Noah Ark is not possible physically, men is evolved not created from dust, population studies as shown tat 6000 below years from one family is not enough to make a civilisation of 6 billions now. 1000 years had passed and judgement day has not occurred. Bats r not birds. Not enough ? U still need more examples ? -
Thank Poopie-head. Out of the 8 pages, i think around 7 has became quite nasty.
So back to the history of civilizations, both SIS and PoopieHead would agree that civilization started when the apes began learning how to write or creating languages. And in between Lucy to the point of these primates began writing, it was a stretch of 3 million of years.
I also looked at the timeline and chronology of all the primates. We zoom in into the part about Homo sapiens and it did say that these modern man (and almost all its ancestors) lived among the middleast, western europe region. This would most likely to contradict the Historians research of placing the Chinese as an parallel, or even earlier, civilization than the Egpytian and Mesopotamia. Someone must be wrong between the Evolutionist and the Historians.
PoopieHead, the reason i stated the 1000 years was because historians state that between the Egyptian, Chinese, and Mesopotamia, the difference in the start of their civilization are no larger than 1000 years. You can google this too.
Regarding the comparision between the Chinese, Egyptian and the Caucasian, I would agree that they are of the same species because the Bible says so too. But if you add the Aboriginal Australians into the equation, most evolution articles do state that they are very close to our primates ancestors rather than human today - most of the time, it does sound like a rasict remark. They never really explain why the Aboriginals didn't so-called "evloved" to the standard to what the rest of the human are in today.
If we put these two together, there are seems to be a lot of pot-holes because evidence is that the Aboriginals wall paintings were supposedly dated to the same time as the Caveman, StoneAge Man. Logically, they will also evloved in the same manner as the Chinese and Egyptian in parallel time. But why not? -
Just something interesting.
Creation and Evolution cannot go hand in hand. So the theory that a day in the bible is equivalent to the million of years of Evolution cannot be true. Many many reason but i will just present one.
Evolution believes that birds comes after land animals.
Creation states that birds comes before land animals.
Dun bash me. -
Didnt noe this, but i rem the story of Robin Redbrea.st and how his chest was made red by Jesus...Originally posted by fandango:Just something interesting.
Creation and Evolution cannot go hand in hand. So the theory that a day in the bible is equivalent to the million of years of Evolution cannot be true. Many many reason but i will just present one.
Evolution believes that birds comes after land animals.
Creation states that birds comes before land animals.
Dun bash me. -
I had one high school biology teacher who was a christian, and he believed in evolution. He was coolOriginally posted by fandango:Just something interesting.
Creation and Evolution cannot go hand in hand. So the theory that a day in the bible is equivalent to the million of years of Evolution cannot be true. Many many reason but i will just present one.
Evolution believes that birds comes after land animals.
Creation states that birds comes before land animals.
Dun bash me.
and he said "people dont believe in evolution because they are ignorant of science" -
But science still works without evolution right?Originally posted by the.raven:I had one high school biology teacher who was a christian, and he believed in evolution. He was cool and he said "people dont believe in evolution because they are ignorant of science"
Chemistry - dun need evolution.
Physics - dun need evolution.
Biology - dun need evolution.
Medicine - dun need evolution. (u still can be a doc without knowing evolution)
Maths - dun need evolution.
Pyschology - dun need evolution.
Computing - dun need evolution.
Veterinary - dun need evolution. (u still can be a vet without knowing evolution)
Steve Irwin - dun need evolution to study crocodiles and snakes too. -
biology need evolution because it is the study of life.Originally posted by fandango:But science still works without evolution right?
Chemistry - dun need evolution.
Physics - dun need evolution.
Biology - dun need evolution.
Medicine - dun need evolution. (u still can be a doc without knowing evolution)
Maths - dun need evolution.
Pyschology - dun need evolution.
Computing - dun need evolution.
Veterinary - dun need evolution. (u still can be a vet without knowing evolution)
Steve Irwin - dun need evolution to study crocodiles and snakes too.
medicine need evolution indirectly cuz like people study how organisms evolve to produce anti-bodies or whatever and then they can create things to fight disease and virus.
and dun need evolution doesnt mean anything. evolution is still science -
i understand that in biology and medicine, evolution are taught as "foundation" in each of the respective sciences, example: Foundation of Medicine 101, Foundation of Biology 101. But the application is very minimal. (maybe mutation in microbiology, but dun think evolution). Any Doctors or Biologist to testify this?Originally posted by the.raven:biology need evolution because it is the study of life.
medicine need evolution indirectly cuz like people study how organisms evolve to produce anti-bodies or whatever and then they can create things to fight disease and virus.
and dun need evolution doesnt mean anything. evolution is still science
My opinion is that maybe evolution can be classified as a religion as well because it involves beliefs. Just a thought.