Creation vs Theory of Evolution
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religion and science can go hand in hand..Originally posted by the.raven:
it's so funny whenever some bible believer says "got to show me proof"
believing in the bible doesn't mean escaping the physical world..
similarly, God confirms His word in many ways and many forms. -
all creation is created within the six days, so there won't be new species popping out to eat old ones
So u mean one day before there is no life on earth and the very next day suddenly every life appear ? They need to produce thousands of such animals for each species at one go as they need the food to sustain it. If tat is the case, then it should be easy to find evidence since a lot of fossils will point to the same age. Why can't they find it ? The bones found r not even approximately close. From study on fossils, they found tat as age goes by the living things become more and more complex. This shouldn't be true since very complex animals such as wolves, dinosaurs and donkeys should be found at the same time.The oldest rocks we find on the earth are about 4100 Mya, and they are devoid of any life. For the next 2000 million years, rocks from the Archean have no multicellular life at all, just prokaryotes. Then, 2100 Mya, appear the first fossils of eukaryotes (single-celled organisms with a nucleus). For another 1000 million years, there is still no evidence of multicellular life. The first hints of the existence of multicellular organisms comes from trace fossils of tiny worm burrows, found in sandstone dating at 1100 Mya.
The complexity is found to be increasing with time, not stagnant as present. isn't tat evidence tat life isn't created in a single day ?
Near the Precambrian/Cambrian transition, only 580 Mya, in the Ediacaran and Burgess shale faunas we finally find the first fossils of multicellular animals. However, they are very unusual, small, soft-bodied metazoans, and most are superficially unlike anything found today. Precisely as we would expect from the standard phylogenetic tree, the earliest fossils of multi-cellular life are very simple sponges and sea anemone-like organisms (sea anemones and jellyfish are both cnidarians). Around 20 million years later, we find the first evidence of simple mollusks, worms, and echinoderms (organisms similar to starfish and sea cucumbers). Another ~15 million years later, the very first vertebrates appear, though most people would strain to recognize them as such. They are small worm-like and primitive fish-like organisms, without bones, jaws, or fins (excepting a single dorsal fin).
As we progress through the Phanerozoic, life gets progressively more similar to modern biota. In the Cambrian (~540 to 500 Mya), we find predominantly invertebrate sea organisms, such as trilobites, sponges, and echinoderms. During the next 100 million years sea life is dominated by invertebrates and strange jawless fish, which besides chordate worms are the only vertebrates around at the time. More familiar jawed fish only appear during the late Silurian, about 410 Mya. Ninety percent of the earth's sediments, up until the Devonian (~400 Mya), are devoid of any land animals.
During the Devonian, we finally find the first evidence of insects. For the next 100 million years, through the Carboniferous up until the Permian (~300 Mya), there are no land reptiles, no birds, nor mammalsmdash;only amphibians and insects. The land is covered by fernsmdash;no pine trees or oaks or anything resembling them.
During the Mesozoic (from 250 to 65 Mya) life is dominated by monstrously large reptiles, the dinosaurs. The predominant plants are unusual gymnosperms, like the cycads. Nothing even resembling a modern mammal is found until the Jurassic, about 190 Mya. Even then, these "mammals" are small and appear half-reptile/half-rodentmdash;far removed from the large megafauna yet to come. Ninety percent of the sediments on the earth which contain fossils of living organisms have no evidence of flowersmdash;these appear for the first time just before the Paleocene (~65 Mya). Likewise, the earth's record of life is devoid of any hardwood forests until the beginning of the Cenozoic (~65 Mya to the present).
During the Cenozoic, mammals and birds finally come to prominence on the land, much as we find today. By the Pleistocene (2 Mya), the earth's biota closely, yet imperfectly, resembles what we presently find on the earth. Notable exceptions are the recent megafauna that covered the continents with organisms like mammoths, giant sloths, and saber-toothed tigers (Futuyma 1998, pp. 130, 169-199).
So u must have believe tat the whole galazy is created within 6 days. Do u think the earth and sun is created within one day then ?there won't be new species created after the six days because it's been done and completed. sign, sealed, delivered. i don't deny that animals can adapt to the environment. they may develop longer limbs, etc.. i.e. things can be created yet still dynamic to adapt.
So u believe tat god will not create any new species out ever again ? I had said before, if u find a new species tat was never found before, tat will confirm creationism. But the truth is tat they don't even try. U believe in microevolution. Do u believe in macroevolution ?
anyway, if there are new species formed. then it's in the area of evolution, not creation.p.s. if DNA are exactly the same, they are the same species. fishes and men have different DNA. so to prove animals with a different DNA makeup is actually quite easy.
The point is not about totally same, but about it being similar. Why will it be similar to the point of more than 80% ? Doesn't tat support evolution ? Or god just cut and paste all DNA codes for convenience ?
Plant evolution has been studied thoroughly. U do not know it because creationism do not target them for argument. -
no...just go look for themOriginally posted by sillyme:maybe it is. but hardly published -
God made the world in six days, so there's not sudden influx of life. In anyway, we're talking about an almighty being, it's not surprising how He can create all these things at the blink of the eye. God is not limited to our human minds. I'm not sure why the fossils were not found, maybe one day we'll all know the answer. This calls for patience.
Genesis was recorded some time after creation, surely all the details cannot be captured. Also, technology wasn't so advanced as the present time. If God had revealed so many details of the galaxy, thermal theorems, creation of space and time, formation of galaxies, planets and beyond, the people of that time would have a difficult grasping the bible. It has to be simple and true.
Yes I believe that no new creation would be formed (except to be "reborn again"
). DNAs are similiar in nature not just because it is in inherited. I'm sure a creator of living beings would have recognised the basic necessities to survive and population, i.e. the four functions you have mentioned, and would have included during the period of creation. Hence, there will be similarities in the DNA composition.
Correct me if I'm wrong. New species have been found from time to time. It's not that they are created, popped out of nowhere. It's just that they are difficult to find and there places still unexplored. So even if a new species is found, it neither supports evolution nor creation because it may just mean that they were undiscovered.
I'll let the others contribute for now =) -
My goodness, sillyme is also a young earth supporter?!
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No lah, i'm not young earth supporter
I'm "God created" supporter -
Originally posted by sillyme:
Your reply was ambiguous. Six days no sudden influx of life.
[b]God made the world in six days, so there's not sudden influx of life. In anyway, we're talking about an almighty being, it's not surprising how He can create all these things at the blink of the eye. -
So u think one day before there was no earth and the day after earth appeared ? There r a lot of evidence tat the earth was made in many millions of years... There r even more evidence tat the galaxy is made in billions of years... one day ? *shake head*
The only thing I can say it... u really have a lot of blind faith on it even though there was so much evidence tat points to the contrary... -
That is an important point. Because salvation does not depend on whether you are a young earth or old earth supporter. But you have to be "God created" supporter though.Originally posted by sillyme:No lah, i'm not young earth supporter
I'm "God created" supporter
There is a school of thought that Genesis 1 is not a record of how God created the world. Instead, it is a refute of a then common religion that 6 generations of gods created the world. 6 generations, 6 days, ring a bell?
An alternative thinking is that the writer of Genesis 1 simply fit the creation account into the common 7-days week. But it does not explain how the 7-days week come about.
The point is it doesn't matter whether God created the world in 6 days or 6 bilion years. The important point is that there is a Creator. -
Does SIS accept Nukewatch's explanation?
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That is an important point. Because salvation does not depend on whether you are a young earth or old earth supporter. But you have to be "God created" supporter though.
So u r an old earth or young earth supporter ? Evidence point to fact tat earth is old. According to bible earth is young. there is a contradiction among them.There is a school of thought that Genesis 1 is not a record of how God created the world. Instead, it is a refute of a then common religion that 6 generations of gods created the world.
The bottom line is, they stated tat it is created within 6 days. It never tell u how it is created, fair enough.. but they do give a dateline for the creation. Do u accept tat ?An alternative thinking is that the writer of Genesis 1 simply fit the creation account into the common 7-days week. But it does not explain how the 7-days week come about.
the writer is suppose to be god. Since he say so, according to your religion it must be so isn't it ? I thought the idea of 7 day week come from this story in genesis ? sunday is suppose to be the rest day like wat happened to god isn't it ?The point is it doesn't matter whether God created the world in 6 days or 6 bilion years. The important point is that there is a Creator.
tat is wat we r trying to prove now. Whether is there a creator or not. How to do tat since he never claims how the world is made ? Simple, he claims tat it is created within 6 days. Just prove tat it is not created within days and it will make the idea of creator becomes less credible. -
Somehow, my point is not understood. So I shall try one more time (perhaps last one), using simple english. Please bear in mind that in doing so, a lot of details are left out.
Originally posted by stupidissmart:
No, the Bible does not state that the Earth is young.
According to bible earth is young.
This is a repeated question, see previous post for repeated answer. Thank you.
The bottom line is, they stated tat it is created within 6 days. It never tell u how it is created, fair enough.. but they do give a dateline for the creation. Do u accept tat ?
Maybe, maybe not. I will let you do the research.
I thought the idea of 7 day week come from this story in genesis ?
"Rest day" is Saturday for Jewish tradition, Friday evening to Saturday evening.
sunday is suppose to be the rest day like wat happened to god isn't it ?
I seriously doubt that can be proven. Either one believeth or one believeth not. Oops, I mean either one choose to believe or one choose not to believe.
quote:
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The point is it doesn't matter whether God created the world in 6 days or 6 bilion years. The important point is that there is a Creator.
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tat is wat we r trying to prove now. Whether is there a creator or not.
Disclaimer: The views expressed here are the author's own. They do not claim to represent the views of all other Christians. All believers and non-believers are welcomed to agree to disagree. Cheers! Ganbei! leKhaim! -
quite trueOriginally posted by Icemoon:Your reply was ambiguous. Six days no sudden influx of life.
ignore the sudden influx. i was trying to tell SIS, everything was created in stages.. -
anyway, to restate my point.
like what nukewatch mentioned, it's not important to me whether the earth is new or old. what is important to me is that the things that exist is created by the Almighty God who is also timeless. -
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Okie, let me summarise your view
u do not care if the earth is young or old. U only care tat it is created by god. Why u do not care is because the evidence point to the fact tat the bible is wrong. U say it is not wrong, because the 6 days tat was used explicitly written in the bible doesn't mean 6 days ?!!? They put 6 days there just to refute other people religion ?!?? If u ask me, either the bible tries to copy other people religion or something must be wrong with god's english as days means days. The use of the word "generations" is probably just a thought by christians who realise tat the earth cannot be young...
U doubt it cannot be proven ? Maybe u r right because to be blunt... u find excuses for its mistakes... bible also suggected tat the earth is flat and sun revolves around earth. I bet u can come up with sayings tat twist its literal meaning to something totally different. If u do not read the words in the bible literally, everything in it becomes undefined. U can say days actually meant generation. Maybe in future some can even say "days" meant papaya, banana or saseme street. -
let's put it this way. there are many questions and doubts i have, but that doesn't stop me from believing in God. there's a huge chunk of missing information about the beginnings of this world we live in. maybe we'll find out someday, maybe not. the it's better to be in God's presence for one day than a thousand days away from Him.
so, let's look at the beginnings of the world from another angle. since you do not believe in creation, you surely believe in the big bang. if all began with an explosion, a big chaos, how did the universe stabilise? surely it defies newton's law of motion. what brought chaos to order? -
let's put it this way. there are many questions and doubts i have, but that doesn't stop me from believing in God. there's a huge chunk of missing information about the beginnings of this world we live in. maybe we'll find out someday, maybe not. the it's better to be in God's presence for one day than a thousand days away from Him.
Tat is funny, because why do u believe in it when u realise tat r a lot of problems and contradictions with it ? Why can't u think about it from another angle tat it just meant christainity does not exists ? Wat evidence do u have saying tat it do ? Frankly, do u think u r special, and tat the religion u believe in have to be true while the other people like taoist buddist and freethinkers r false ?so, let's look at the beginnings of the world from another angle. since you do not believe in creation, you surely believe in the big bang. if all began with an explosion, a big chaos, how did the universe stabilise? surely it defies newton's law of motion. what brought chaos to order?
I believe in the big bang. Tat depend on wat is your definition of chaos and order. Do u know tat there is no such thing as absolute position but only relative position ? The absolute position tat we learn during school r also in refernece to a point of interest. Now almost everything is moving (asteriod, stars etc) in a way tat mathematically say tat they come from a common point. Earth is continuosly moving around the sun and on its axis and also following the movement of the sun. Sun is moving around the milky way. Gravtiy caused all these movement. Things near to the edge of galaxy r still moving at the speed of light. Newton law of motion is used to justify big bang, there is no problem to it. -
haiz....last time got people get condemned just because he said the earth orbit the sun.Originally posted by stupidissmart:So u think one day before there was no earth and the day after earth appeared ? There r a lot of evidence tat the earth was made in many millions of years... There r even more evidence tat the galaxy is made in billions of years... one day ? *shake head*
The only thing I can say it... u really have a lot of blind faith on it even though there was so much evidence tat points to the contrary... -
scientists and astronomers have always been, and will still be studying the universe. right now we do not have enough knowledge to say what exactly happened in the vast cosmos. however we dont just go like "god created it in 1 day and then everything became like that" thats taking it for granted. the point of learning science is to figure out things. and also there already are many theories which are answers to your questions by people like Einstein, Stephen Hawkings, and many modern physicists. go read a book or something.Originally posted by sillyme:so, let's look at the beginnings of the world from another angle. since you do not believe in creation, you surely believe in the big bang. if all began with an explosion, a big chaos, how did the universe stabilise? surely it defies newton's law of motion. what brought chaos to order? -
Yes I've read of Hawkings and Einstein and science-related articles (I wanted to be a physicist when I was young). And as I agreed, there are many things that we do not know. But that does not rule a creator out of the whole picture. This creator would have set in place physical laws in which the creation should operate. But because he is divine, he would have the powers to intervene the events that take place in the process of creation.
I would never have the knowledge to make a sensible or convincing argument of the second law of dynamics, nor talk about the findings from Cosmic Background Explorer. These are just things I read from the source (credit goes to google, etc). In anyway, each camp will have their "valid" points of argument.
Again all these things scientists have discovered may be true, but I restate again, it does not rule out creation by a divine being.
But not having all knowledge of everything and how it came about doesn't stop one from taking a step of faith in acknowledging the beauty of God. For who has heard of believers accepting God as their father because he figured how God created the world? To some, it was because it was the God of their fathers; to some, it was the love they saw God had; to some, it was the transforming change they saw God can do. It is truly a liberating experience
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I was created by my mum and dad. I evolved into what I am today...
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Creation VS Evolution?? ~WAHAHAhahahaha... <>
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Yes I've read of Hawkings and Einstein and science-related articles (I wanted to be a physicist when I was young). And as I agreed, there are many things that we do not know. But that does not rule a creator out of the whole picture. This creator would have set in place physical laws in which the creation should operate. But because he is divine, he would have the powers to intervene the events that take place in the process of creation.
Why force fit a creator into the picture just for religious sake ? I mean as people know more and more about science, they tend to know tat supernatural phenomenon r getting more and more... false... As said by raven, if we do not know certain thigs, tat doesn't means we give up and conveniently join a religion. If everyone do tat, then there will be no science.But not having all knowledge of everything and how it came about doesn't stop one from taking a step of faith in acknowledging the beauty of God. For who has heard of believers accepting God as their father because he figured how God created the world? To some, it was because it was the God of their fathers; to some, it was the love they saw God had; to some, it was the transforming change they saw God can do. It is truly a liberating experience
I just cut and paste an earlier answer I had written in chit chat
Let me ask u then, wat actions have he done in the bible tat u can recognise him as your father ? He test people by killing their whole family, he kill almost the whole race of men just because they r not good in his eyes, he kill off the first born of the egytians just because they do not listen to him and he cursed the whole human race to speak in different language just because they wanted to cooperate in building a tower. Why do U think I felt he is sadistic etc, is because he really is a bit... sadistic... He really create evil isn't it ? He really punish men for being sinful isn't it ? Everyone sins isn't it ? According to a christian website, when u r born, u have already sinned. Then isn't the analogy of forcing everyone to swim and punish them when they r wet true ? He create sin, make it such a way tat everyone sin then punish people because they sin. Is there anything wrong with tis saying ? U better hope tat u r not his son as he will probably crucifixed u as a sacrifice to himself. -
Back to square one ah?
I'm a believer of God, and I do not deny the relevance in science too. (best of both worlds)