TNP: Gays Are Okay in This Church
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sorry pal....Originally posted by fandango:stupidissmart, i thought you were pretty well versed with the bible?
Sodom and Gohmorrah can be found in Genesis Chapter 18 - 19, go read about it. This is as clear as it gets. God rained brimstone and fire on them for their homosexual sins.
i dun agree with ur view in this case. my explanation is.....God DOES NOT punish these 2 cities for homosexuality BUT rather their immorality and wickedness.....homosexuality being one of those. Yeah....
As much as I am totally against unatural sex, I am also equally concern about reading and interpreting the Bible correctly...which some ppl here among this thread does not have.
anyway....thanks for visiting our forum
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*sigh* stupidissmart, although I'm an atheist, your constant questioning of someone's faith is a little uncounted for.
Please do not continue. -
No worries. i know what you mean in the context of the other immorality and wickedness in Sodom and Gohmorrah, it just that i want to bring to light the homosexuality aspect to go in line with the discussion.Originally posted by NeonTetra:sorry pal....
i dun agree with ur view in this case. my explanation is.....God DOES NOT punish these 2 cities for homosexuality BUT rather their immorality and wickedness.....homosexuality being one of those. Yeah....
As much as I am totally against unatural sex, I am also equally concern about reading and interpreting the Bible correctly...which some ppl here among this thread does not have.
anyway....thanks for visiting our forum
I assure you from what i see, several of the people here are threading as careful as they can be with concerned with interpreting the Scriptures. -
actually, does it really really matter which religion we are from? i feel that bottom line is, the religion must teach you to do good... as long as you are not doing anything that is evil, harmful to other people... thats all... no one can be a super pure human... NO ONE ever can... all religions have their bibles, scriptures, quran, whatever ... but if someone claims to belong to one religion but is a really evil person, i dont believe that religion can protect him from any thing... in christianity, i think they believe in GOD, their punishment is burning in eternal hell... as a buddhist, i believe in something called karma... meaning for every action, there is an outcome... and i guess thats life, doesnt matter which religion you are from, no point arguing, as long as in your heart, you try your very best to be a well being... thats my point of view...
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Originally posted by fandango:Yes, the word "know", used back then in the Old English time of King James, means "to have sex with".
So you are spot on here, and i hope this will bring to light the message of the passage. and then only one is left..... ha ha ha.... hey maybe we are tagteam....
actually no point already lah.... someone will then quote a verse with the word "know" inside and misintepret as having sex. Eg: And you shall remember all the way which the Lord your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not," (Deut. 8:2). Person will say "ar, see this verse also got know, so means God have sex with you ar???"
which highlights the importance that Scripture has to be read with the understanding of language, culture, context, styles as well as tradition.
Cheers, and God Bless.... -
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
I was actually expecting that to say the least. But so far so good. No feedback from him...yet. It's good that he really went to look at the passage though.
actually no point already lah.... someone will then quote a verse with the word "know" inside and misintepret as having sex. Eg: And you shall remember all the way which the Lord your God has led you in the wilderness these forty years, that He might humble you, testing you, to [b]know what was in your heart, whether you would keep His commandments or not," (Deut. 8:2). Person will say "ar, see this verse also got know, so means God have sex with you ar???"
.[/b]
Reading the Scripture with understanding and discernment, it is sooooo important. -
... sure come one..... wait.... still surfing the net for answers....
good on you... -
Yes, the word "know", used back then in the Old English time of King James, means "to have sex with".
Tat is very strange... how do u interprete tis statement then ?Genesis 3:22 - And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
So the god want adam and eve to have sex with good and evil ? How about tis ? Tis is just a few verses beforeGenesis 18:19 - For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.
god wanna have sex with abraham ? Com'on, Know is just plain know, not trying to say "having sex" in old english either. There r possibly few hundred uses of the word "know" in the bible and we "know" they r not refering to having sex.i dun agree with ur view in this case. my explanation is.....God DOES NOT punish these 2 cities for homosexuality BUT rather their immorality and wickedness.....homosexuality being one of those. Yeah....
Tat is true, they r punishd for the immorality, though there is no explanation wat immorality it is. They may be equally likely to have banned slavery or stop stoning women which is against god word, tat is why they r being punished.which highlights the importance that Scripture has to be read with the understanding of language, culture, context, styles as well as tradition.
however trying to interprete the bible to your side and saying tat we have to read your way to suit your need is a bit... baised. I can also say tat the culture implied the meaning I said. Know is just plain "know". If u just use tis excuse people can just interpret the scripture in the way they like it to be. Wat is the diff with cults then ?I was actually expecting that to say the least. But so far so good. No feedback from him...yet. It's good that he really went to look at the passage though
I don't go to forum 24 hours a day. -
Originally posted by stupidissmart:however trying to interprete the bible to your side and saying tat we have to read your way to suit your need is a bit... baised. I can also say tat the culture implied the meaning I said. Know is just plain "know". If u just use tis excuse people can just interpret the scripture in the way they like it to be. Wat is the diff with cults then ? that's why you need to read more and because of your incessant desire to research, you need to look the right place. I am not even talking about Christian website. For starters, read up culture, language, translation, history, geography etc.
Credibility of source is important. It is very unlikely that the "National Enquirer" has good information to, say, "National Geographic"
... so to you "Uncle" is just "Uncle"??? No difference between Yee Zhang or Ku Zhang or Jiu Fu which has differences between which side of the family this person is from? -
The only proof tat determines whether is gay a sin depends on whether is "know" = "having sex". Unless u can prove to me tat it is true, then I believe most people here will think it is too far fetch. WHo know the word g#d may mean gays in certain olden religion.
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:The only proof tat determines whether is gay a sin depends on whether is "know" = "having sex". Unless u can prove to me tat it is true, then I believe most people here will think it is too far fetch. WHo know the word g#d may mean gays in certain olden religion. Lifted the following from: http://www.m-w.com/
which, by the way is NOT a Christian website. M-W stands for Miriam-Webster, and it's a dictionary.
Please refer to explanation 3 (in RED)
Main Entry: 1know
Pronunciation: 'nO
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): knew /'nü also 'nyü/; known /'nOn/; know·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Old English cnAwan; akin to Old High German bichnAan to recognize, Latin gnoscere, noscere to come to know, Greek gignOskein
transitive senses
1 a (1) : to perceive directly : have direct cognition of (2) : to have understanding of (3) : to recognize the nature of : DISCERN b (1) : to recognize as being the same as something previously known (2) : to be acquainted or familiar with (3) : to have experience of
2 a : to be aware of the truth or factuality of : be convinced or certain of b : to have a practical understanding of
3 archaic : to have sexual intercourse with
intransitive senses
1 : to have knowledge
2 : to be or become cognizant -- sometimes used interjectionally with you especially as a filler in informal speech
- know·able /'nO-&-b&l/ adjective
- know·er /'nO(-&)r/ noun
- know from : to have knowledge of
.... you, of course can still insist that "know" is "know".... -
hmm...i guess the stand of the Christian community has been made clear. Not just that..biblical teachings againts Homosexuality has been made clear too.
Here for a final touch:
the Statement issued by National Council of Churches of Singapore
http://www.methodistmessage.com/sep2003/nccsstatement.html -
if you want to talk abt verbs, nouns and meaning of words, go join the spelling bee contest. i believe this is a forum discussing chrsitianity issues. i believe the topic is about whether the nature of gay is planned by God, from the begining?
i believe, because it is written in the bible, *bearing in mind that this is a christian forum, not a dictionary debate club* that God find the acts of gayness, perverse and evil. they can be nice people, i very much believe so, but it gives no excuse that it is wrong. a child can steal, although the child is sweet in nature, but the act of stealing is wrong. so the perverse act of gayness, is wrong, even if the people are good people. thats why, God loves the people. but hates the sins. is my english good enough a standard for you to comprehend that? or are you so enclosed in your own world of perfect A1s for english that you can't understand what i am saying.
personally. if you want to debate about the existance of God, i can introduce you to a group of renowned scientists, who can explain to you about creation. and the backings la. been to one of their talks a few years back.
but from my own experiences, people just refuse God's existance, *furtile, cuz its like you denying my existance, even though i am really existing, but you are just going into denial mode "dumbdumb don't exist... dumbdumb don't exist..."*, for the sake of denying... even if the facts hit them in the face like a ton of bricks, they just refuse to.
like i said, throughout my experiences. there are 3 kinds of people who deny God's existance,
the really ignorant
the ones who just refuse to believe, even if they see it *sounds like you doesn't it?*
and the ones who are just plain retarded and stupid.
honestly evaluate yourself.
you may say "what does my denial of God's existance got to do with the issue at hand? you are just a DUMBDUMB!"
i am arrowing you the fact that because you deny God's existance, you are just seeing the world how you want to see the world, like gay is alright etc. but the world definitely makes more sense when God is placed into the equation *i hope your maths is as good as your english*
like how God made adam and eve, and not adam and steve. sex is for reproduction, why we should treat our bodies well, why we shouldn't murder, steal, why we must respect our parents.. etc.
when you remove God out of the equation of life, in your own lil world of "god doesn't exist in my world" you start doing things your own way, which brings hurts, pains, and suffering into the world. thats called sin. are you following me?
and the people thought it's alright to stuff their lil equiptments into each others' asses for pleasure, people thought its alright to "borrow" without asking *or returning* people thought its alright to "kill a person of a different race.."
you see? everyone thinks its alright to do something, because it may feel right to them, but yet it isn't right. its called sin.
and having a better education won't make the world a better place, singing micheal jackson's heal the world, won't make the world a better place, only one thing can make the world a better place. and its simply, us. but we are so crappy in nature, we hurt one another etc etc.. its becuz we are imperfect. but God can change us, cleanse us from the penalty of sin, which is death, and as we grow, and walk in His ways, not our ways, we will bring healing wherever we go. real christians will never intentionally hurt others, unless its for their own good. even if they do, they will want to make amends. to make things right between people. do you get it? or is your mind so vast, what i said got lost in some black hole you call your brain?
seriously, if you just want to prove your command of english is better than us, then just leave la. if its any consolation to you, i suck thumb la, i lose ok? my english lousier than you..
"powderful" english = more logic?
hardly. i can make more sense than you, using my "lehs", "lars", and "lohs".
its my nature to speak my mind, i've said whatever i want to say, you can be hurt, and go "since dumbdumb made fun of me, i shall be stubbon.." or you can grow up, find out for yourself how much i said is truth. i'm not even gonna bother to tell you to do anything, you should go find out for yourself. pfft. -
to me it's simple.
OT establishes that God despises homosexuality (to the extent of destroying a city).
Jesus established salvation so that all sinners can be reconciled in NT. Forgiveness is given but repentance must follow, i.e. forsaking your old ways of sin and turning to God. -
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:if you want to talk abt verbs, nouns and meaning of words, go join the spelling bee contest. i believe this is a forum discussing chrsitianity issues. i believe the topic is about whether the nature of gay is planned by God, from the begining?
... who's "you", is it me ha???
there are people who reads the Bible disregarding context, language and culture. So it may be useful to share with such people from sources such as something as simple as the dictionary. -
Sorree for the long wait
3 archaic : to have sexual intercourse with
Although u can not prove to me whether it is just "know" as in "know", neither am I able to show u tat tis "know" is not sexual intercourse.
However need to ask another question, before someone actually says tat new testaments fulfil old testaments. However on the issue of slavery, it is again supported by new testaments as well. Since now obviously there r no slavery and most christians now do not support slavery. isn't tat a sign of changing rules ? Not only tat bibles have been wrong about things such as sun revolves around the earth too. I believe there has been changes from the new testaments to now, why doesn't the issue of gays evolved ?the Statement issued by National Council of Churches of Singapore
i know wat is the official stand, I am just asking for the rationale of itif you want to talk abt verbs, nouns and meaning of words, go join the spelling bee contest. i believe this is a forum discussing chrsitianity issues. i believe the topic is about whether the nature of gay is planned by God, from the begining?
How do u know whether the nature is planned by god or not unless u interprete your bible ? Tat is wat I and the others r doing isn't it ?believe, because it is written in the bible, *bearing in mind that this is a christian forum, not a dictionary debate club* that God find the acts of gayness, perverse and evil. they can be nice people, i very much believe so, but it gives no excuse that it is wrong. a child can steal, although the child is sweet in nature, but the act of stealing is wrong. so the perverse act of gayness, is wrong, even if the people are good people. thats why, God loves the people. but hates the sins. is my english good enough a standard for you to comprehend that? or are you so enclosed in your own world of perfect A1s for english that you can't understand what i am saying.
Unlike most christian, I ask "where" is it written. I don't go and believe watever junk people told me unless I see it for myself.
Now on the issue of child stealing, I got to ask... why is being gays wrong ? From the bible they says losing virginity deserevs to be stoned to death while slavery, even slaves for sex is okie. So they can be conveniently forgotten while gays have to be taken seriosuly. Bible has also twist and turn its stand many times in the past too. Maybe in a hundred years they will say gays r right too. It is unlike most people claims, saying tat it is never changing, but like most human made policies, they change with time.
U say tat gays r sinful acts now, but then again is it wat god says or wat human interpreted ? Or worse still, invented ? we can see around how capable people r at in twisting scripture to fulfil their own agenda, why can't u see tat tis may be twisted too.personally. if you want to debate about the existance of God, i can introduce you to a group of renowned scientists, who can explain to you about creation. and the backings la. been to one of their talks a few years back.
there has already been a debate about the existence of god in tis forum before.but from my own experiences, people just refuse God's existance, *furtile, cuz its like you denying my existance, even though i am really existing, but you are just going into denial mode "dumbdumb don't exist... dumbdumb don't exist..."*, for the sake of denying... even if the facts hit them in the face like a ton of bricks, they just refuse to.
for dumbdumb case, there is a person writing or replying in tis forum. it is very real, u can see is existence and the things he do. for god is different. U see a sky and u say it is done by god, u see a stone u say it is done by him and u see yourself and u say it is done by him, even though u have no evidence, never see its existence or see him designing in the process. Everything they do not know, they say it is god who design it, which is a very convenient excuse. Different group of people have done tis too. Chinese, japanese, african and indians have come up with their own different version of god theories too. Frankly I felt tat I am the one surprised at people believing in god even though the facts had hit them hard on the face. Who is going into denial mode here ? There r people who just believe for the sake of believing even though the bible has many contradictions, flaws, inadequacies, logically wrong etc. In fact most don't even know it well in the first place. They just believe for believing. -
the really ignorant
I guess u r really biased and ignorant yourself. I can also say there r 3 types of christians too
the ones who just refuse to believe, even if they see it *sounds like you doesn't it?*
and the ones who are just plain retarded and stupid.
1. They r borned as one, as their parents r one. they r brainwashed from a young age
2. They suffer a major setback in life such as getting incurable diesease or career setback. They rely on a religion because they can't stand the truth. This type of people will most likely end up more fanatic than others.
3. To be with christians. Friend and peers has been pushing them into religion. They get to know more people and believe just to be with them. When they first joined, ask them much about the bible and they knew nuts.
honestly evaluate yourselfi am arrowing you the fact that because you deny God's existance, you are just seeing the world how you want to see the world, like gay is alright etc. but the world definitely makes more sense when God is placed into the equation *i hope your maths is as good as your english*
I don't really see any sense when u brought in god into the equation. They only make sense to people who become terrorists and bombed themselves or start a war because of religion. Aren't u seeing the world u want to see ? U want god to exists because only then will the truth hurts lesser ? Death will be a blessing and not a curse, hope for incurable dieseases, heavenly arrangement when one is at a dead end etc. Isn't tat looking at the way u want to look ?like how God made adam and eve, and not adam and steve. sex is for reproduction, why we should treat our bodies well, why we shouldn't murder, steal, why we must respect our parents.. etc.
God made adam a master over eve. So u believe in men being more important than women ? Why shouldn't u murder etc ? because laws is there and they r there to preserve harmony and growth for human. We also respect our parents etc because we belieevs in ethics ourselves. U don't need god to tell u how to do good things, confucius is good enough.when you remove God out of the equation of life, in your own lil world of "god doesn't exist in my world" you start doing things your own way, which brings hurts, pains, and suffering into the world. thats called sin. are you following me?
tat is a very wrong misconception. We believes in rules and we believe in helping others and we believe in living in a group. There r probably many people with no religion too. R they going around killing people etc ? On the other hand, religion can manipulate people. Religion can make people start wars, massacre and terrorists. Wat sin can be worse than these ?and having a better education won't make the world a better place, singing micheal jackson's heal the world, won't make the world a better place, only one thing can make the world a better place. and its simply, us. but we are so crappy in nature, we hurt one another etc etc.. its becuz we are imperfect. but God can change us, cleanse us from the penalty of sin, which is death, and as we grow, and walk in His ways, not our ways, we will bring healing wherever we go. real christians will never intentionally hurt others, unless its for their own good. even if they do, they will want to make amends. to make things right between people. do you get it? or is your mind so vast, what i said got lost in some black hole you call your brain
Why r we imperfect because your god make us so in your religion. God change us or cleanse us ? He too change people for the worse isn't it ? Healings ? Killing witches is healing ? Stoning women is healing ? Starting wars is healing ? Com'on... believe in a cruel god makes their follower cruel.
BTW real atheist nevernever intentionally hurt others, unless its for their own good. even if they do, they will want to make amends. to make things right between people. do you get it ? no religion is not equal to crazy person who breaks every rule and ethics. Tat is a real biase and perverse thought u haveseriously, if you just want to prove your command of english is better than us, then just leave la. if its any consolation to you, i suck thumb la, i lose ok? my english lousier than you
Is my english good ? I treat it as a compliment but my arguments is based more on logics. -
oei, argue finish liao buay?
*me tap my feet*