TNP: Gays Are Okay in This Church
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Extracted from the New Paper Online.
"GAYS ARE OKAY IN THIS CHURCH
Services held in Tanjong Pagar pub
75% of worshippers are homosexual
But don't call us a gay church, they say"
Full story in yesterday's New Paper or scroll down.
What are your comments on this act?
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Homosexuality is a sin, as quoted from a church council which can be see in the same report.
No issue if the church ministers to the gay folks and council them into abandoing their life style, but to condone it is something else.
It is like having a church for thieves and say that it is OK to steal and after that come to worship God.
Here's a church that is twisting scripture to suit their needs..... -
adaptation to the ever changing world... i think i am ok with it, since i am not gay & i am not a christian...
but anyway, i dont think the church should abandon these people just because of their lifestyle... so i guess its a good thing... 
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You are right to say that the church should not abandon these people. The problem is that this church apparently has practicing gays (ie people with partners of the same sex). Unless the leadership has a method to bring in these people and makes attempt to council them away from that practice. which by the way is condemned in the Bible.Originally posted by spyder:
adaptation to the ever changing world... i think i am ok with it, since i am not gay & i am not a christian... but anyway, i dont think the church should abandon these people just because of their lifestyle... so i guess its a good thing... -
Just a question... where part of the scriptures actually banned gay ?
I really don't know tis... -
For the benefit of those who have'nt read the copy.
The New Paper - 14 Jul 2004
Prayers held in a pub
Registered as company
Maintains homosexuality is not a sin
GAYS OK IN THIS CHURCH
By Tay Shi'an
THE church's services take place beneath two silver disco balls and next to a bar.
Two nude gold mannequin torsos and several furry pink and purple couches have been pushed aside to make way for rows of foldable black chairs.
It's not your traditional house of worship.
This church holds its services in a Tanjong Pagar pub. And it welcomes gay people.
The church has even gone as far as to say that homosexuality is not a sin.
This makes Free Community Church probably the only one in Singapore to accept homosexuality.
Although mainstream churches do accept gay worshippers, their stand on homosexuality is that it is wrong. (See related report.)
Said Mrs Susan Tang, a vice-chairman on the church's council: 'We have a congregation of about 50 people, of whom about 75 to 80 per cent are gay.
'Our stand is that homosexuality is not a sin, and we welcome gay people to come and worship.'
A check on the Accounting and Corporate Regulatory Authority of Singapore website revealed that the Free Community Church is currently registered as a company. Its members said the church is striving to be accepted as a regular church, and not be labelled a gay church.
Said church-goer Peter Goh, 31, an R&D programmer: 'Our church welcomes gay people, but why should it be called a gay church? I would rather call us an all-inclusive church.'
Mrs Tang herself is a straight 48-year-old housewife, who has been happily married for 20 years, and has three children.
She is one of two vice-chairmen of the church council. There are about 10 members in the council.
According to another member, a businessman in his 30s who gave his name only as Eugene, the church gives people an environment to work out the conflicts they may have about being gay and Christian.
'Many gay Christians choose to remain closeted in mainstream churches, for fear of getting blacklisted,' he said.
Said another member, a 40-year-old financial engineer who gave his name only as Tianci: 'Many churches believe in 'accepting the sinner, but rejecting the sin'.
'But they expect you to change and become straight, or at least be celibate,' he added.
Tianci revealed that the church was started about 1 1/2 years ago, when one of its original members was expelled from his church for being gay.
He declined to give the name of the church.
With no place to worship, the original member gathered a few gay friends, and they began to meet weekly in one of their homes.
When their number grew to about 10 to 15 in two months through word of mouth, they moved their place of worship to an art gallery.
When they further expanded, they moved to the pub in April this year.
But it won't be their permanent home. The church requested that the pub not be named.
'The pub location is only temporary, we are still looking for a more suitable place to gather,' said Mr Goh.
He added that the church had managed to rent both venues - the pub and the art gallery - as their members knew the owners of the premises.
The New Paper team attended a service on Sunday, after receiving an e-mail about the church from a mainstream Christian who was uncomfortable with the church.
The e-mail had a link to the church's website, which gave its meeting venue and time. At first, we only had the address of the venue, so we were shocked to discover that it was actually a pub.
There was no sign outside indicating there was a church service being held inside.
But once we were seated, several friendly church members approached us on their own to make us feel welcome.
And, once you got over the unusual surroundings, it seemed like any other church.
There was Christian music playing, and several people in prayer.
JUST LIKE A REGULAR CHURCH
When the service began, it was just like any other service in regular churches. There were hymns, the Holy Communion, and a sermon given by a straight Christian counsellor.
Despite its obvious differences in theology from mainstream churches, the Free Community Church, which does not belong to any denomination, says that it is a regular church like any other.
But the 'gay factor' has drawn criticism for both the church and outside speakers who come to give talks to the congregation.
'Some of our speakers are high-profile in the religious world, so word gets out, and they come under lots of pressure from other Christian organisations not to be associated with us,' said Tianci.
He added that the general misconception about the gay community has deepened the prejudice.
'Admittedly, some gays do behave irresponsibly. But we want our members to develop respectable lives,' he said.
But the speakers are not deterred.
Said the Christian counsellor, who declined to be named: 'These are fellow imperfect people, so I have no reason to reject them - it's not my job to condemn them.'
And that effectively summarises the meaning of the church's name, FREE - First Realise Everyone is Equal.
Church-goers say that the church's openness towards not just sexuality, but to all religions and church denominations, has attracted even a few Buddhists to attend the services regularly.
Tianci added that the church has faced many struggles, and only wished to worship God in peace.
When The New Paper visited the church's website again yesterday, the venue of its services had been removed.
- Additional reporting by TAN MAE LYNN
Copyright © 2004 Singapore Press Holdings Ltd. All rights reserved -
http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/homosexuality/lv18_22.html
visit at your own risk. Contains nudity.
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Leviticus 18:22Originally posted by stupidissmart:Just a question... where part of the scriptures actually banned gay ?
I really don't know tis...
'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
The concluding verse of Chapter 18 which talks abt all forms of detestable sexual relations:
verse 29-30
'Everyone who does any of these detestable things-such persons must be cut off from their people. Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' " -
Romans 1:18-32
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts.Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. -
Wau lau ! I Love tat website man ! U should have told me earlier about it ! Hahahahahahah !!
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Leviticus 18:22
I am pretty sure u guys never follow all the teaching of the bibles. They permit men to have slaves, stoned people to death and not eat any pork. Why only obey the law on gays then ? I am pretty sure these other laws are found in leciticus too.
'Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."
The concluding verse of Chapter 18 which talks abt all forms of detestable sexual relations:
verse 29-30
'Everyone who does any of these detestable things-such persons must be cut off from their people. Keep my requirements and do not follow any of the detestable customs that were practiced before you came and do not defile yourselves with them. I am the LORD your God.' " -
Christians follow the teachings of Christ where they follow the new convenant. Though the new convenant speak little of gays.Originally posted by stupidissmart:I am pretty sure u guys never follow all the teaching of the bibles. They permit men to have slaves, stoned people to death and not eat any pork. Why only obey the law on gays then ? I am pretty sure these other laws are found in leciticus too. -
Romans is a New Testament book in case u dun realise.
The Old and New Testament are both authoritative and relevant as it is today. and the changes we see from OT to NT, comes only because Christ the promised Messiah came.
The form of Jewish temple worship, the feasts of the Lord, the sacrifice of animals and other Jewish laws are foreshadow of what is to come in the NT times.
Jesus came, NOT to abolish the laws, but rather to fufil them.
The Life -giving New Covenant in Christ is by far better than the death-giving Old Covenant from Moses. But they are linked and related, the Old makes way for the New and the New surpasses the Old.
Those without the Spirit of God, cannot understand the mind of God. -
Originally posted by stupidissmart:I am pretty sure u guys never follow all the teaching of the bibles. They permit men to have slaves, stoned people to death and not eat any pork. Why only obey the law on gays then ? I am pretty sure these other laws are found in leciticus too.
Oh no.... not again..... 
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brother...seems like to teach bible lessons for non-believers is a challenging task ya?Originally posted by Chin Eng: Oh no.... not again..... -
Originally posted by NeonTetra:Romans is a New Testament book in case u dun realise.
The Old and New Testament are both authoritative and relevant as it is today. and the changes we see from OT to NT, comes only because Christ the promised Messiah came.
The form of Jewish temple worship, the feasts of the Lord, the sacrifice of animals and other Jewish laws are foreshadow of what is to come in the NT times.
Jesus came, NOT to abolish the laws, but rather to fufil them.
The Life -giving New Covenant in Christ is by far better than the death-giving Old Covenant from Moses. But they are linked and related, the Old makes way for the New and the New surpasses the Old.
Before or after the promised advent of Christ, human beings need sex also. For pleasure between married couples and for procreation. These laws do not change.
Those without the Spirit of God, cannot understand the mind of God. -
I don't really know wat u r trying to say there, however it seems little in addressing my question... both laws are found in the same section.
In Leviticus 18:19 (which is just a few verses before the prohibition 'thou shall not lie with a man as with a woman') having sexual relations with a woman during her period is forbidden yet this is not proclaimed as a binding rule for today.
Also, 18:8 and 18:18 show that this code allows for polygamy yet this is now considered immoral.
19:28 prohibits tattoos yet they are not proclaimed as sinful by the Christian church.
19:19 forbids crossbreeding of livestock yet the church allows, farmers who do this very thing to worship in church.
19:19 forbids sowing a field with mixed feed, yet farmers are not condemned who plant hay and alfalfa.
11:7 forbids the eating of pigs, yet people unashamedly have a side of bacon with their eggs!
11:6 forbids the eating of rabbits (hares) because they don't have cloven hooves but they chew cud, yet some Christians love to eat rabbit.
11:9-10 forbids the eating of any seafood that doesn't have fins and scales, yet shrimp and lobster lovers are not told to repent by Christians, nor is Red Lobster picketed!
from http://www.whosoever.org/bible/lev18.html
SO my question is, since chrisitians have abandoned so much of their old laws, why still insist tat homo has to be banned ? -
my previous posts have explained all these...its a matter of whether u want to agree or choose to continue to talk.Originally posted by stupidissmart:I don't really know wat u r trying to say there, however it seems little in addressing my question... both laws are found in the same section.
In Leviticus 18:19 (which is just a few verses before the prohibition 'thou shall not lie with a man as with a woman') having sexual relations with a woman during her period is forbidden yet this is not proclaimed as a binding rule for today.
Also, 18:8 and 18:18 show that this code allows for polygamy yet this is now considered immoral.
19:28 prohibits tattoos yet they are not proclaimed as sinful by the Christian church.
19:19 forbids crossbreeding of livestock yet the church allows, farmers who do this very thing to worship in church.
19:19 forbids sowing a field with mixed feed, yet farmers are not condemned who plant hay and alfalfa.
11:7 forbids the eating of pigs, yet people unashamedly have a side of bacon with their eggs!
11:6 forbids the eating of rabbits (hares) because they don't have cloven hooves but they chew cud, yet some Christians love to eat rabbit.
11:9-10 forbids the eating of any seafood that doesn't have fins and scales, yet shrimp and lobster lovers are not told to repent by Christians, nor is Red Lobster picketed!
from http://www.whosoever.org/bible/lev18.html
SO my question is, since chrisitians have abandoned so much of their old laws, why still insist tat homo has to be banned ?
things ppl do today..or seemed allowed doesnt mean the church allow or teaches. pls know the difference -
Romans is a New Testament book in case u dun realise.
If both OT and NT r authoritative and relevant, then I need to ask tis question. In the OT,
The Old and New Testament are both authoritative and relevant as it is today. and the changes we see from OT to NT, comes only because Christ the promised Messiah came.
The form of Jewish temple worship, the feasts of the Lord, the sacrifice of animals and other Jewish laws are foreshadow of what is to come in the NT times.
Jesus came, NOT to abolish the laws, but rather to fufil them.
The Life -giving New Covenant in Christ is by far better than the death-giving Old Covenant from Moses. But they are linked and related, the Old makes way for the New and the New surpasses the Old.
Those without the Spirit of God, cannot understand the mind of God.
13:1
If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
13:2
And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
13:3
Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
13:4
Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
13:5
And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
Isn't tat describing Christ ? If tat is the case, then the OT is already trying to refute the NT before it is created. Doesn't tat make the NT totally wrong ? No where in the OT suggest tat it will be "outdated" either. How can u actually say tat Jesus come to fulfil the law by actually being "outlawed" in the OT ? -
u quote scriptures to carry out ur agenda......Originally posted by stupidissmart:If both OT and NT r authoritative and relevant, then I need to ask tis question. In the OT,
13:1
If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder,
13:2
And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them;
13:3
Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
13:4
Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.
13:5
And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn you away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.
Isn't tat describing Christ ? If tat is the case, then the OT is already trying to refute the NT before it is created. Doesn't tat make the NT totally wrong ? No where in the OT suggest tat it will be "outdated" either. How can u actually say tat Jesus come to fulfil the law by actually being "outlawed" in the OT ?
if u dun believe the Bible at all, dun quote it at all.
i am not going to reply any more posts after this post. There are much more prophesies concerning the coming of the Messiah , than these little tricks of urs. -
my previous posts have explained all these...its a matter of whether u want to agree or choose to continue to talk.
I treat tat as having no answer to explain the actions and discrimination
things ppl do today..or seemed allowed doesnt mean the church allow or teaches. pls know the difference
In short your reply meant tat church actually supported men to own slaves and women to be stoned to death ? As I asked before, all these 3 rules r found in the OT. How can u actually choose to enforce the rule against homo while eliminating the other rules which is not popular anymore ? U can either refute all of them or accept all of them isn't it ? How come u also pratise buffet selection of which rule to believe or not ? -
To you,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Indonesianss, but not Malaysians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Malaysians?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. -
u quote scriptures to carry out ur agenda......
But u believe in the scripture isn't it ? It is something u should be familiar with isn't it ? If u can't even fight on your own home ground, isn't something wrong ? I am trying to show tat within the scriptures exists its own contradiction and problems. Outside sources is not even needed to prove its doctrine is wrong.
if u dun believe the Bible at all, dun quote it at all.
i am not going to reply any more posts after this post. There are much more prophesies concerning the coming of the Messiah , than these little tricks of urs. -
Originally posted by NeonTetra:brother...seems like to teach bible lessons for non-believers is a challenging task ya?
Actually I don't mind the teaching, as long as person is teachable....
As I had mentioned before many times, the issue is not really about finding out truth or opinion, it is about the individual's dislike for Christians probably because in some previously, unpleasant experience, Christians knocked on his door too many times or some something.
Whatever it is, it has become extremely unpleasant to respond anymore....
Take care, bro.... study hard. -
interesting website, but note that there are some distortion of scriptures. i viewed the topic on slavery and found one such distortionOriginally posted by Nelstar:http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/homosexuality/lv18_22.html
visit at your own risk. Contains nudity.