Roman Catholism
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Hi all,
Let me say something.
Let's not go the way of calling each other believes a cult. We all know certain ones are the obvious ones, but I shall not name them.
I believe certain facts of the bible should be addressed (I might be wrong, please correct me if I am). The history of the bible can be found here. No matter what translation it went through, it has the same source. I believe the RC bible and the Protestant's only differs interms of inclusion/exclusion of certain books right?
What's more important is that the cornerstone of your faith is Jesus. About Protestants not testing the things pastors say is not fully true. I mean to my knowledge, Martin Luther started the Protestant movement because there was abuse of power by the Pope in his time. Scriptures in his time was only be interpreted only by the Pope. If we don't test every message that is spoken by "enlightened" people who has caught some visions, then we'll be rejecting the Holy Spirit that was given when Jesus ascended to heaven. -
Very sad that Protestants and Catholic are arguing with each other on their views. It's like trying to gain power over another in the name of our Lord Jesus, which is wrong. We are suppose to Love and Glorify our Lord, not dwell in our self interest. Remember it is not the laws that will save us, but the faith in Jesus Christ and the Grace of our Lord that we can find eternal salvation in Him. Read the bible, Protestants and Catholic and live in peace as brother and sister. Let us unite so as to Glorify our Lord and for those who seek to dominate using their knowledge, may you know what you are doing.
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hehe.. {wuming}.. in the bible, the terms RC and Protestant have not be started yet ah =)
anyway, we can discuss about the differences for all we like. if we don't love God, we don't commune with Him daily.. it's all in vain =) -
So RC don't teach basic church history in its classes? Or are such topics taboo in RC? Not your lack of knowledge, but rather the lack of education bah?Originally posted by TrU PeAce (^0*)v:sry...but RC didnt teach me that anglican exist just because of the marry more than one wife thing.....pls dun blame RC..u could blame my lack of knowledge..but it has nothing to do wif RC
united just becoz they go against RC....that's where the word protestant come from......to " protest "
Technically speaking, you used the word Protestant wrongly. Even Neon is guilty of this mistake. The original use of the word has more to do with politics than religion. I leave you to find out.
That's why in any well-informed article dealing with church history, you won't find the author labelling christians like Luther, Calvin and Zwingli "Protestants". The proper word to use is "Reformer". That period in history is the Reformation.
Let it be known, that Martin Luther was kicked out (exocommunicated), not that he was trying to start a new church to compete with the RC.
Not that I trying to sound nitty-picky, but words like these can put a certain group in a bad light and create the impression Protestants are like people trying to overthrow the government and traitors to the Faith. -
i really hope this debate will end coz there is no answer to all our questions.
no use debating among ourselves coz only God knows the answer. 
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Relax, the purpose is not to convince people since many of you here (even SIS) are already entrenched in your belief.
The real purpose, I think, should be to create an awareness. Awareness of how your brethen in other denominations feel, how they think about your faith. For a moment, try to put yourself in their shoes and view certain issues from their perspective.
Like the who above. Gives me the impression the RC don't teach certain things and as a result, some knowledge are gained from friends. I hope debates like this can help everyone learn something in the process.
Even the never-ending debate with SIS. Some of you can use this chance to sharpen your apologetics skill. But this guy seems inpenetratable. Or have we not found a sharp enough sword? -
I agree with Icemoon. That's why we allowed this thread to carry on. I've gained much just by reading. Just remember to pray for wisdom as you read (as with all other cases).
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mini celebrity eh?Originally posted by stupidissmart: -
huh !?!?! Public enemy number 1 bah...
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sis, want to go outing on 1st august?
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Nope. I don't want anybody to know who I am
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ok lemme know if you change your mind
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Skully he is one great chio bu ...
No no ... maybe he is another prominent forummer using SIS as a nick. Hahahah, a bit like the characters in "The Da Vinci Code" huh? -
Originally posted by NeonTetra:
Firstly, we do not honour the Sacred Heart of Jesus as if it were "exposed" or separate from the Body of Jesus. It is honoured not in and of itself but b/c it is the heart of (and in!) Jesus. Secondly, devotion to the Sacred Heart is not really devotion to the heart itself as much as it is devotion and thanksgiving for the overwhelmingly selfless love that Jesus Christ revealed through His Passion and Death. Love is often associated w/ the heart, so devotion to the heart of Jesus is devotion to the love he had for us.
[b]finally got some time to spare to post some difference between Catholic Jesus and Biblical Jesus:
[quote] 1. Catholic Jesus has been widely portrayed as one with his heart exposed. What normally known as Sacred Heart of Jesus. No where in the Bible did Jesus told ppl to honour his heart. The 12 promises of honoring the heart is not biblical..it keeps on emphasizing exposing the image of the heart to obtain grace and blessings when one honours the picture.2. Catholic Jesus appear in several occassions revealing images of himself for ppl to venerate. The Divine Mercy image is one of the occassions in which 'Jesus' told ppl to make a painting of him and honour it to obtain grace and mercy. Biblical Jesus before His ascension pray for His followers and gave the command about preaching the good news and wait for the coming of the Holy Spirit, the Helper. He didnt give instructions to make paintings and hang and honour them.
Matter conveys grace all over the place in Scripture: Baptism confers regeneration: Acts 2:38, 22:16, 1 Pet 3:21 (cf. Mk 16:16, Rom 6:3-4), 1 Cor 6:11, Titus 3:5. Paul's "handkerchiefs" healed the sick (Acts 19:12), as did even Peter's shadow (Acts 5:15), and of course, Jesus' garment (Mt 9:20-22) and saliva mixed with dirt (Jn 9:5 ff., Mk 8:22-25), as well as water from the pool of Siloam (Jn 9:7). Anointing with oil for healing is encouraged (Jas 5:14). Then there is the laying on of hands for the purpose of ordination and commissioning (Acts 6:6, 1 Tim 4:14, 2 Tim 1:6) and to facilitate the initial outpouring of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:17-19, 13:3, 19:6), and for healing (Mk 6:5, Lk 13:13, Acts 9:17-1
. Even under the Old Covenant, a dead man was raised simply by coming in contact with the bones of Elisha (2 Kings 13:21)!
This is the sacramental nature of the world we live in. God has desired to come to us, to meet us half way, and to use the physical world that we live in to bring us closer to him.3. Catholic Jesus is believed to reside in the tabernacle. That is why catholics when entering a catholic church will genuflect to show respect to the presence. Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament is when catholics believed that the consecrated host become real flesh and blood, soul and divinity of Christ. When placed in a receptacle known as monstrance, catholics are to kneel before that bread and worship it as if Christ is really there. Biblical Jesus celebrate the Last supper and insititute it as a remembrance for all of us. He never ask ppl to place that bread in a photo frame and worship it. Worship God in spirit and in truth.
You already reject the sacramental nature of this world, so I believe you too reject the Real Presence. Let me explain. In the Incarnation, our glorious and spiritual Father in heaven chose to take upon himself the physical matter of a human body. No analytical exercise of the five senses can prove this reality. But the eyes of faith reveal to us that in the seeminly ordinary body and person of Jesus Christ is our divine God. Likewise, through Transubstantiation, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ takes upon himself the physical matter of bread and wine. No analytical exercise of the five senses can prove this reality. But the eyes of faith reveal to us that in this seeminly ordinary bread and wine is our divine God.Conclusion: Catholic Jesus reveal many things in which is contrary to the teachings of the Bible and in no way is the same Jesus as we read about in the Bible. According to readings, worship of organs such as Heart is a babylonian cult practise.
Also, as w/ the devotions to the Sacred Heart and the "Divine Mercy image" you are stuck on the external realities (what these devotions show you, what you see) and cannot get beyond this to the underlying premises. Eucharistic Adoration is not about putting Jesus in a picture frame! It is about worshipping our Lord and Savior! We don't worhship an organ. We honour and revere the love of Jesus Christ. This is an important distinction. The "Catholic Jesus" IS the "Biblical Jesus."
And a word of caution, whoever mocks the Mother of Christ is mocking Christ himself! -
as much as the explanation do make some sense...they do not have solid biblical backing. the making of images and veneration of these are surely not allowed in the Bible. if God knows humans like pictures so much..then y the bible is all in words?
the bible also emphasise on a faith that require no sight. then why keep insisting people need to see and touch some relics and pictures in order to believe?
Grace from God is it tt limited that we need sacramentals such as medals and scapulars to obtain? Christ's death is not powerful and sufficient enough to make us worthy of God's grace? Mary dun wear medals..yet she is highly favored and God's grace is on her.
Moses and all the biblical figures do not encounter God in bread and images. They saw God in visions and out of faith.
Pictorial representations, no matter how legitimate it seems on human terms is not the right manner to remember, observe, worship and honour God-the invisible.
Why dun we worship a picture of Jesus's brain so that we can have the mind of Christ? -
eh i know this is a bit out of point but have u guys ever heard of the phrase "Stigmata"?
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yes. the appearance of nail marks on hands and feetOriginally posted by frOst^~^nOva:eh i know this is a bit out of point but have u guys ever heard of the phrase "Stigmata"? -
Ah, don't be so confident. Wait till you find a comic series of Scripture from the first century.Originally posted by NeonTetra:if God knows humans like pictures so much..then y the bible is all in words?
Published by the Jerusalem Church somemore! HQ Christianity. -
hmm....Originally posted by Icemoon:Ah, don't be so confident. Wait till you find a comic series of Scripture from the first century.
Published by the Jerusalem Church somemore! HQ Christianity. -
Does protestants experience Stigmata too? coz RC does..Originally posted by NeonTetra:yes. the appearance of nail marks on hands and feet -
I too experience them.. mosquitoe bites mah ! So wat r u trying to say ? When one has a hallucination tat he has (finger) nail marks on their hands, they become more holy ?
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Same as someone poo poo Chinese medium?Originally posted by stupidissmart:I too experience them.. mosquitoe bites mah ! So wat r u trying to say ? When one has a hallucination tat he has (finger) nail marks on their hands, they become more holy ?
Yup. -
There were not many such claims during this period, and very little official notice was taken of them. It wasn't until the 13th century that the number of such reports began to increase.
Just a question... why does god have to punish his follower by inflicting pain on them ? Sounds to me more of a work from the devil than divine, more of a punishment than a reward, more hoax than holy.
It was 1224 when the first undisputed and best-known case of stigmata surfaced on the person of St. Francis of Assissi, one of the great Roman Catholic Church saints.
Two years before his death, St. Francis was praying on Mount Alverna, a place in central Italy where he often went to be alone. He was in the middle of a 40-day fast, feeling weak, and his eyes were burning. While he was praying and concentrating on his meditations, a vision appeared to him: an angel who was carrying an image of a man nailed to a cross.
When the vision disappeared, St. Francis felt sharp pains in various places on his body. Looking to find the source, he saw that he had five marks like those on Jesus' hands, feet, and sides. Observers described them as "fleshy" and "nail-like ... "round and black, standing clear of his flesh." His side appeared to have been lanced; his companions actually saw that wound appear, as though his skin had been slashed. During the days that followed, St. Francis' trousers and tunic were often soaked in blood. The marks remained until his death and reportedly caused him much pain.
Church authorities have not recognized St. Francis' stigmata as "divine intervention." Pope Benedict XIV (1740-175 said he was "doubtful." St. Francis de Sales (1567-1622) at first believed the marks were the result of heavenly action but later came to judge them as "a product of strong compassion in a person thinking about Jesus' suffering." Pope Pius (1846-187, like many of his predecessors, believed that St. Francis' stigmata were "historically certain but not an article of faith."
The Church's opinion is that this phenomenon occurs only in ecstatics, persons in a state of "ecstasy," reportedly a common denominator in all stigmata claims. This is described as an intensely emotional state in which rational thought and self control are absent.
The question arises: Why did God start to intercede in human affairs after 13 centuries? If stigmata are intended by Him to inspire and encourage the faithful, it is puzzling that for the first 12 centuries there were only a handful of occurences.
To explain why, we might consider the Church of that period. It was being criticized for various abuses and for ignoring the average man and woman. It was on the brink of some important changes. The "common people" wanted some direct communication with Jesus, but the Church required them to obtain permission for that contact. So to bypass an unyielding church, individuals began to suffer with Jesus on their own, feeling that body on the cross within their own bodies.
A skeptic might point out that earlier stigmatists had marks in the PALMS of their hands, while later subjects reported marks on their WRISTS. This could be explained by a change in historical understanding of the nature of crucifixion and the need to have the victim kept in place on the cross. -
no coz my cathecist ever showed me some pics of stigmata happening when they went on a retreat. the photos were quite shocking.Originally posted by stupidissmart:I too experience them.. mosquitoe bites mah ! So wat r u trying to say ? When one has a hallucination tat he has (finger) nail marks on their hands, they become more holy ?