Was this pastor right or wrong ?
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:During a debate, it is necessary to know tat your role is to let the other people accept your viewpoint while the other party role is to let u accept theirs. When suggesting other people have a problem of accepting your viewpoint, it may be worthwhile to notice sometimes they themselves too have fail to accept the viewpoint of others. It goes 2 ways.
you know what??? I've always accepted your viewpoint as your opinion and will walk away happy even though I do not agree with it. I will not relentless pursue a pointless discussion on whether Pepsi or Coke taste better. I was hoping that you can too. Seemingly you have been pursuing this Christian/Catholic/atheism issue for too long and too hard.
... and for what? You have said your peace and while there are parties that will agree with you (and you them) there are others who will be disagreeable to you.
You have expressed enough about your disdain and disagreement to the Christian doctrine, so be it. There are lots of things that I don't understand or agree within my church (and doctrine) too.
It's like this, I disagree with my parents on lots of stuffs, but that does not stop me from fulfilling my duties and continue to love them. But I don't think anyone should criticise them, rightly or wrongly, in my presence. In a situation like this, my passion and respect for them will make me defend them to the end and to death, such should be the passion one have on one's religion or faith, otherwise it will just be an empty proclaimation. -
er... defending them even though what you think is wrong?
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Originally posted by ventin:er... defending them even though what you think is wrong?
defend who??? those with different opinions??? well, everyone reserve their rights to their opinions.
When face with conflicting views one can:
1. Attempt to address/correct/debate the issue.
2. If a compromised cannot be reached, there is really no point in going on. It will only result in emotive retorts and endless internet links to prove a point that is basically unprovable. Both sides should just move on.
3. It becomes problematic when one party continues to pursue the conflict under the guise of another topic. I do not agree to lots of things that is discussed in, say, "Bar", but I will not want to go in there and question the other forumites' moral standing.
While I believe in God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, other forumites reserve the right not to believe as I believe, even though I think it is wrong not to believe in God. -
you know what??? I've always accepted your viewpoint as your opinion and will walk away happy even though I do not agree with it. I will not relentless pursue a pointless discussion on whether Pepsi or Coke taste better. I was hoping that you can too. Seemingly you have been pursuing this Christian/Catholic/atheism issue for too long and too hard.
But then again, why want me to stop ? Am I just talking with u in the discussion ? If I want to carry on, it is my business and not really of your concern. If u feel it is wrong, bring it up. Otherwise I do not see any logic or reason to stop just for your sake. BTW wwhen people ask neontetra to stop his message to publicise his religion, do u think he will stop ? He will stop temporary but will carry on again. If u have no problem with him doing his publicity, why should u have any problem with mine ?
... and for what? You have said your peace and while there are parties that will agree with you (and you them) there are others who will be disagreeable to you.
About your idea of "accepting" and "disagreement", let me ask, wat will the reply of "accepting" but "disagreement" differs from "not accpeting" ? I accept tis is wat u believe, I find it wrong or confuse and tell u my viewpoint or ask a question. Wat is "not accepting" in tis case ? But then when u refuse to accept my point on "not going to attack on other religion" and keep asking me to do it even though I have claimed many times I am not interested.You have expressed enough about your disdain and disagreement to the Christian doctrine, so be it. There are lots of things that I don't understand or agree within my church (and doctrine) too.
Don't understand then ask lah ! Felt confuse then try to see if they had a logical answer for it. If they don't then why aren't u suspicious tat something is wrong somewhere ? U don't understand why certain things r done in a certain way and u just keep believing in it ? Isn't tat a streak of stubbornness and close mindedness ?It's like this, I disagree with my parents on lots of stuffs, but that does not stop me from fulfilling my duties and continue to love them. But I don't think anyone should criticise them, rightly or wrongly, in my presence. In a situation like this, my passion and respect for them will make me defend them to the end and to death, such should be the passion one have on one's religion or faith, otherwise it will just be an empty proclaimation.
Putting your parent name in it is a bit off. Why don't u treat it like a discussion on the content of a history textbook. This is wat the scripture r isn't it ? They tell of events tat had happened in the past with actually no relationship at all with your parents. After reading it, u find something is wrong and logically impossible, do u still read it as though it is true ? Of course u have to find out wat went wrong and if tis textbook is credible. Don't tell me u still blindly think the history book is right after they claim WW2 is started by Malaysia and George Bush founded singapore in 1819. -
defend who??? those with different opinions??? well, everyone reserve their rights to their opinions.
Who to determine when to stop correcting in a debate ? U set the limit to stop ? No, I feel tat tis can carry on and I will keep writing about it. BTW I do nto just drone on a single but multiple subjects (masturbation, tongues, evidence of god, cruelty of god etc) . Why stop ? A different subject requred a different debate isn't it ? U don't set the rules here.
When face with conflicting views one can:
1. Attempt to address/correct/debate the issue.
2. If a compromised cannot be reached, there is really no point in going on. It will only result in emotive retorts and endless internet links to prove a point that is basically unprovable. Both sides should just move on.
3. It becomes problematic when one party continues to pursue the conflict under the guise of another topic. I do not agree to lots of things that is discussed in, say, "Bar", but I will not want to go in there and question the other forumites' moral standing.While I believe in God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, other forumites reserve the right not to believe as I believe, even though I think it is wrong not to believe in God.
true, but I reserve my right to keep writing about it. For most of my replies it is always targeted at different people. If tat is your belief then it is good, but I am not just talking to u neither am I debating with u. It is for other readers ot the person who I am replying on. My belief is similar to neontetra, which is to let people aware of their supposed truth. So christian can spread the word while other people have to stay quiet ? -
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power."
- 1 Corinthians 4:20 -
Missing the point again lah.Originally posted by stupidissmart:...
But then again, why want me to stop ? Am I just talking with u in the discussion ? If I want to carry on, it is my business and not really of your concern. If u feel it is wrong, bring it up. Otherwise I do not see any logic or reason to stop just for your sake. BTW wwhen people ask neontetra to stop his message to publicise his religion, do u think he will stop ? He will stop temporary but will carry on again. If u have no problem with him doing his publicity, why should u have any problem with mine ?
No lar, Neontetra will not publicise Christianity in the other forum. He, as well as nice folks like sillyme, does it only in Eternal Hope, which obviously is the right place to do it. It would have been extremely silly and rude to try to sell an MP3 player here.
So far, I have not seen many Christians posting anything in the other forums. Of course, you'd say that I don't set the rules. For that matter, apparently there are no such rules, only etiquette. Meaning, Christians discuss what we want to discuss in Eternal Hope. Bar-hoppers go to Bars etc etc.Originally posted by stupidissmart:true, but I reserve my right to keep writing about it. For most of my replies it is always targeted at different people. If tat is your belief then it is good, but I am not just talking to u neither am I debating with u. It is for other readers ot the person who I am replying on. My belief is similar to neontetra, which is to let people aware of their supposed truth. So christian can spread the word while other people have to stay quiet ?
Are you finally admitting that you are not here to seek answers, and that your pursuance is attempting to free Christians from the truth? So it is no longer a discussion but a form of preaching???
Sorry that you are put off. But see, it's your opinion. I was not arguing about history, I was talking about passion. Like you with your passion to right the wrongs of Christians, it is no longer about hard facts. It is about an emotional stand. People have been so emotionally involved in history that they refuse to right it eg Japan's official stand that the rape of Nanjing did not occur.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Putting your parent name in it is a bit off. Why don't u treat it like a discussion on the content of a history textbook. This is wat the scripture r isn't it ? They tell of events tat had happened in the past with actually no relationship at all with your parents. After reading it, u find something is wrong and logically impossible, do u still read it as though it is true ? Of course u have to find out wat went wrong and if tis textbook is credible. Don't tell me u still blindly think the history book is right after they claim WW2 is started by Malaysia and George Bush founded singapore in 1819.
Etiquette is a good yardstick to use when both parties disagree....Originally posted by stupidissmart:Who to determine when to stop correcting in a debate ? U set the limit to stop ? No, I feel tat tis can carry on and I will keep writing about it. BTW I do nto just drone on a single but multiple subjects (masturbation, tongues, evidence of god, cruelty of god etc) . Why stop ? A different subject requred a different debate isn't it ? U don't set the rules here.
You had previously shown your disdain towards even the intervention of the moderator, so you probably had a total disregard for authority.
Yes, I agree that the topics you'd participated in multiple subjects, however, the common theme in the topics is basically "Christianity is a irrational religion" or something to the effect. -
Missing the point again lah.
U don't really know much but neotetra do post messages in chit chat etc. So in the end, your argument just lies on whether should I post messages in eternal hope ? My answer is, why not ? My intended audience is here. It will be extremely dumb of me to post these questions in market isn't it ? Please read below too.
No lar, Neontetra will not publicise Christianity in the other forum. He, as well as nice folks like sillyme, does it only in Eternal Hope, which obviously is the right place to do it. It would have been extremely silly and rude to try to sell an MP3 player here.So far, I have not seen many Christians posting anything in the other forums. Of course, you'd say that I don't set the rules. For that matter, apparently there are no such rules, only etiquette. Meaning, Christians discuss what we want to discuss in Eternal Hope. Bar-hoppers go to Bars etc etc.
I guess u have read too little. I have seen many posts from christians at chit chat.
Are you finally admitting that you are not here to seek answers, and that your pursuance is attempting to free Christians from the truth? So it is no longer a discussion but a form of preaching???
Etiquette ? Firstly, if u go to bar, u can write about your sexual experience. u can also write down your inexperience in tat area in tat forum as well. If u want, u can write about condemning of "interesting" sexual experience if u want. It is still within topic and there r a lot of people doing tat too. There r people who fantasise crazy things and there r also more people who put them down. If u don't believe, u can go and read about men who wanted to wear women undergarments and there r many people who shot them down. If u go to car, u can talk about your experience in owning or driving a car. U can also write about your problem or why u feel driving is dangerous or the accident tat u had just experienced too. There is nothing wrong with it. In maket, u can write about an ad to sell away yout car. U can also write about your problems or how u get cheated when u use tis forum for purchases too. As can be seen, talking on opposite viewpoint on the main topic is actually supported and sometimes recommended.
Why do u think asking christians about their own religion is out of point in here ? U guys aren't christian ? Wat is wrong with me posting questions to christians about their religion ? Only if I am asking question about taoist in eternal hope, then I am really out of the issue.Sorry that you are put off. But see, it's your opinion. I was not arguing about history, I was talking about passion. Like you with your passion to right the wrongs of Christians, it is no longer about hard facts. It is about an emotional stand. People have been so emotionally involved in history that they refuse to right it eg Japan's official stand that the rape of Nanjing did not occur.
Sorry man, I am arguing on the facts of the case. Maybe it is u who get emotional instead of debating in a rational manner. As can be said by u, on the example of rape of nanking, if some japanese found tat something seems to be wrong with it after visit to SE asia countries or china, they will go and read about it and found the real truth. If u, after finding out there is something wrong with the history stated, yet do no investigation, then u will be cheated about it for the rest of your life. Even modern history has its own alteration such as rape of nanking, how can u be sure the bible is more accurate given its 2000 years of history and incredulous claims ? Please do not lose your cool and level headedness and become emotional when debating.Etiquette is a good yardstick to use when both parties disagree....
If I have a total disregard for authority, I will probably be smuggling drugs and caught in jail now. Just because someone lock away a thread and I to appeal against it, makes me a person who has a total disregard for authority ? Then the people who appeal against any jugdement in a law suit all have disregard for authority. Any men who talk against the Gov of any gov is also having a total disregard of the law. Sorry man, I am not a blind follower.
You had previously shown your disdain towards even the intervention of the moderator, so you probably had a total disregard for authority.
.Yes, I agree that the topics you'd participated in multiple subjects, however, the common theme in the topics is basically "Christianity is a irrational religion" or something to the effect
However I am talking about different viewpoints. The theme in eternal hope is about christainity isn't it ? All of u talk about the common theme of christainity too. So u guys r always debating on a common theme and thus should be forbbidden from talking about it anymore ? U guys r always talking about "god god god" in this forums isn't it ? -
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of talk but of power."
tat line is also mere talk of its own
- 1 Corinthians 4:20
u never really see the power of it either. -
What I meant is that Neontetra (sorry Neon to drag you into this) he did not use the other forums to discuss religion..... obviously he posts all over the place, some serious some fun. Me too...Originally posted by stupidissmart:U don't really know much but neotetra do post messages in chit chat etc. So in the end, your argument just lies on whether should I post messages in eternal hope ? My answer is, why not ? My intended audience is here. It will be extremely dumb of me to post these questions in market isn't it ? Please read below too.
Maybe I have read too little, I only go to the newest topic and by and large, there is almost zero posting on Christianity on the other topics.Originally posted by stupidissmart:I guess u have read too little. I have seen many posts from christians at chit chat.
The etiquette I am talking about is continually attempting to look for perfect answers where none is satisfactory. Since there is NO PERFECT answer for you, then let's get on with life.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Etiquette ? Firstly, if u go to bar, u can write about your sexual experience. u can also write down your inexperience in tat area in tat forum as well. If u want, u can write about condemning of "interesting" sexual experience if u want. It is still within topic and there r a lot of people doing tat too. There r people who fantasise crazy things and there r also more people who put them down. If u don't believe, u can go and read about men who wanted to wear women undergarments and there r many people who shot them down. If u go to car, u can talk about your experience in owning or driving a car. U can also write about your problem or why u feel driving is dangerous or the accident tat u had just experienced too. There is nothing wrong with it. In maket, u can write about an ad to sell away yout car. U can also write about your problems or how u get cheated when u use tis forum for purchases too. As can be seen, talking on opposite viewpoint on the main topic is actually supported and sometimes recommended.
ASKING questions genuinely is not out of point.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Why do u think asking christians about their own religion is out of point in here ? U guys aren't christian ? Wat is wrong with me posting questions to christians about their religion ? Only if I am asking question about taoist in eternal hope, then I am really out of the issue.
CONTINUALLY BERATING is just rude.
No lah, did not lose my cool.... more stressed at work than anything.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Sorry man, I am arguing on the facts of the case. Maybe it is u who get emotional instead of debating in a rational manner. As can be said by u, on the example of rape of nanking, if some japanese found tat something seems to be wrong with it after visit to SE asia countries or china, they will go and read about it and found the real truth. If u, after finding out there is something wrong with the history stated, yet do no investigation, then u will be cheated about it for the rest of your life. Even modern history has its own alteration such as rape of nanking, how can u be sure the bible is more accurate given its 2000 years of history and incredulous claims ? Please do not lose your cool and level headedness and become emotional when debating.
Unfortunately, emotion is part of life, and so is passion. Don't tell me you are not passionate about what you are arguing about? It is the driving force that keeps you in the game for so long, and spur you to do the amount of research that you had done.
It is entirely possible that I have been misled and that the Bible is totally inaccurately. It is also possible that perhaps you are wrong. Am I not correct to make this assumption. So the conclusion is there is no way for you to prove either way.
Hence, let's agree on this one point.
No lah, you did not just appealed, you continued to post a sequel and even make a challenge to the effect that you will continue if you choose it. This is what I meant when I say you disregard authority. Had you obeyed the authority, you will say I appeal and wait for the authority's decision before taking further actionOriginally posted by stupidissmart:If I have a total disregard for authority, I will probably be smuggling drugs and caught in jail now. Just because someone lock away a thread and I to appeal against it, makes me a person who has a total disregard for authority ? Then the people who appeal against any jugdement in a law suit all have disregard for authority. Any men who talk against the Gov of any gov is also having a total disregard of the law. Sorry man, I am not a blind follower.
Just for argument sake, do you have anything NICE to say about Christians?Originally posted by stupidissmart:However I am talking about different viewpoints. The theme in eternal hope is about christainity isn't it ? All of u talk about the common theme of christainity too. So u guys r always debating on a common theme and thus should be forbbidden from talking about it anymore ? U guys r always talking about "god god god" in this forums isn't it ?
Is there anything that is within the dogma of Christianity that makes sense to you? This will be a good yardstick for one to measure one's emotions towards another thing.
Have a good evening. Gotta go home. Almost five already..... -
he does convey his idea quite smoothly but i think he's crapping alot.Originally posted by True_Xerion:i'm quite sure it's the same one we attend
usually he makes a lot of sense & is able to very clearly convey his message but i do agree that particular sermon was rather odd, drawing upon inferences made on shaky ground & some 'conspiracy theory' ideas?
btw which one u go to? we usually go for 4th .....
TX
depends on my mum...went for 1st,2nd,3rd and 4th before...
usually 3rd
i have to agree on yr last sentence...totally... -
What I meant is that Neontetra (sorry Neon to drag you into this) he did not use the other forums to discuss religion..... obviously he posts all over the place, some serious some fun. Me too...
Wrong. Wat I meant is he do post religious issue on other forums. If u want u can check back the history. I am pretty sure he is not going to deny it either.Maybe I have read too little, I only go to the newest topic and by and large, there is almost zero posting on Christianity on the other topics.
U should check back history and tell me. The rate of addition of topics r a lot daily.The etiquette I am talking about is continually attempting to look for perfect answers where none is satisfactory. Since there is NO PERFECT answer for you, then let's get on with life.
I never ask for perfect answer. There is never a real thing tat is perfect anyway. Wat I had ask is a reasonable answer. Of course since u like to define things like perfect and etiquette, maybe u can try to tell me wat do u mean by perfect answer ? Is an unsatisfactory answer a perfect answer ?ASKING questions genuinely is not out of point.
If u notice, I never ask the same question unless it has never been answeed
CONTINUALLY BERATING is just rude.
Why don't u show me some of the question I keep asking and the answer tat were given ?No lah, did not lose my cool.... more stressed at work than anything.
Passion is one thing. However from your earlier post u seems to suggest tat when one talk abotu religion, one has to be emotional about it, which is wrong.
Unfortunately, emotion is part of life, and so is passion. Don't tell me you are not passionate about what you are arguing about? It is the driving force that keeps you in the game for so long, and spur you to do the amount of research that you had done.
It is entirely possible that I have been misled and that the Bible is totally inaccurately. It is also possible that perhaps you are wrong. Am I not correct to make this assumption. So the conclusion is there is no way for you to prove either way.
Hence, let's agree on this one point.
I agree with your first 2 stand, but i do not agree with your 3rd one. There is a way to prove it either way. How ? Simple, show tat one side is logically impossible. the teachings r fundamentally wrong. Although it may not show whether I am right or not, but it sure show tat u r definitely wrong.No lah, you did not just appealed, you continued to post a sequel and even make a challenge to the effect that you will continue if you choose it. This is what I meant when I say you disregard authority. Had you obeyed the authority, you will say I appeal and wait for the authority's decision before taking further action
Tat is funny, so when u say something then it is judgement ? U r the authority ? I cannot present my side of the story ? I have to get your approval before I can say anything ? Is tat free speech ? Tat is ridiculous. After every post from u I have to get an approval to answer back.Just for argument sake, do you have anything NICE to say about Christians?
Something nice.... hmm... personally some of them r good people, though I was wondering if they r also good people regardless of their religion. However I also see an equal number of hypocrite...
Is there anything that is within the dogma of Christianity that makes sense to you? This will be a good yardstick for one to measure one's emotions towards another thing.
Have a good evening. Gotta go home. Almost five already....
Making sense ? Frankly... no. -
So the sum of the last statement is you don't really have nice things to say about Christians???? 'cos these nice Christians are probably nice even if they are not Christians???Originally posted by stupidissmart:Something nice.... hmm... personally some of them r good people, though I was wondering if they r also good people regardless of their religion. However I also see an equal number of hypocrite...
Making sense ? Frankly... no.
Actually not far from the truth. Still there are some who are deemed "hypocrites" and is aware of it but trying hard to work out their lives. I am probably one of these.
Have a fruitful day, SIS....
Me??? Lots of troubleshooting to do at work.... -
wah mummy's boy! so sweet!Originally posted by bismarck:depends on my mum...went for 1st,2nd,3rd and 4th before...
usually 3rd