did he die for me or not?
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Doesn't seem to click with your "Sorry man, my stand has always been BLIND FAITH is irrational." below
BLIND FAITH is irrational. No proof no evidence nothing yet believe in it because of wat ?
Hmm .. someone suggesting the christian faith is irrational ... hmmm .. I haven't unleash the weapon yet ... negative apologetics to the rescue!
Why don't u unleash your super duper "negative apologetics" now ?I'm sure I didn't. In fact, I did clarify later, for the sake of argument, just assume my worldview is the christian one. Well, the debator's stand during a competition need not agree with her personal conviction right? Same for me here.
SO I treat tat u will not ask me for my "world view" again. Good.It is blind what. Since you're evaluating whether what you see, hear, feel, touch, smell is true, obviously you can only evaluate them "blindly".
I have stated tat seeing and sensing is assume to be correct and true. Why doubt your sense ? U hallucinate ? Why don't u prove tat our senses r wrong before u say tat my faith resting on senses r irrational.
Since u treat it as though your senses r deceiving u, u might as well close your eyes when u cross the road or stop listening to anyone since they might as well be false
No wonder u r hallucinatingThe early christians certainly did not enjoy such earthly benefits. They were constantly in danger of being persecuted and some even martyred themselves.
R u early christians ? I am talking about the christians now.
How about going to heaven after death ? Someone "guiding" u when u r "lost". All good things tat happened to u r from "god" while all the bad things tat happened is due to yourself, nature or a test ? These r true isn't it ?You did insult the Prophet, comparing him with the absurd Lu Bu.
Sorry to say, Lu Bu is a real historic character living during the era of the three kingdoms. However too bad for chinese history is, they seems to have add exergeration to the characters by giving a greater height or weight of the weopon than it really is. When I refer prophet to Lu Bu, I am saying tat it may be possible, after so many years, facts has been twisted or historian never record it truely inthe first place. Even real historic accounts proved to be buffling.
Well I have explain my stand, why don't u start to talk about your discrimination on "muslim going to jihad or huntum people" just because of small events.That's not a rule. It is a logical necessity. It is the same for any other religion regardless of whether they come out with such "rule".
No, in chinese religion, those who commit good deeds go to heaven, no matter who or wat religion u r. If u did bad deeds u will go to hell too. For christian is specifically insisted tat only believers r saved. They even say tat it is the only path to be save. Tis is not about logical necessity, it is talking about a prerequisite.Heh ... so my counter-example work lah.
Counter example work ? As wat I said before, it only "work" for non faithful believers, aka believers who didn't follow the guidelines by going to church etc. So if u r happy tat it work for non faithful believers and not the masses then please carry on.
If you've not realized, the first person to enter paradise with Jesus belonged to this group.
BTW, these non faithful believers had paid the price
hey hey hey !!! can the moderator close tis thread. Or the moderator would encourage more flaming den putting out the fire.
Why want to close tis thread ? If u don't like it don't read. There r always some flaming somewhere around this forums isn't it ?
moderator do ur job now!!!!! -
To me i believe the God's son die for us....
Not becos the God want his Son to die....i guess is during that period , the way the condition the people live in , a hard life... hard to trust, hard to love , hard to forgive people....the heart of the men...i guess has become like a stone.... in the end more and more men turn to sin...
This innocent Man...somehow believe in the good thing of men...but God know that by forgive the men directly, they will throw it away....again.
And this Man agree to die for us....to show the people the goodness of men again...
How???
First He will go through all the pain where no man can stand....to make our heart soft......to make our stoney heart "hear" again...this is a Man that show great forgiveness...a gift given by God through this Man ,....a gift to give us a HOPE that goodness will back to us again....
Love one another....Love your enemy....... -
I see. So you personally have not found the answer. I hope you do not add me to that list of christians who cannot give you good answers because I definately have a lot more to learn and I apologize. You made me realize my lack of understanding in certain biblical concepts and I will study them and try to answer when I am ready. For now, I will stop trying so as not to disillusion more people about christianity........ does the idea tat they have no holy spirit when they write the NT ever crossed your mind ? Do people having holy spirit on them have a white auro or a circle above their head ? THey just say "I have holy spirit with me" and u believe they have holy spirit on them ? Why god need to add version 2 or version 3 to the bible ? Is it because version 1 is not good enough ? [/quote]
As said in my previous post. I believe its either all true or all false. And yes, I have though about that as I have though about christianity being a hoax. But I believe its all true, so I believe that the holy spirit came over the writers as they wrote as it is written in the bible. I dont know about having white auras of anything but it is my opinion that you can tell whether a person is having a christian life or not by their actions.U can read for years and yet find nothing. If found all the other scholars will have written it all in their website etc to educate christian about it.
I am not an ex christian. But some of my friends and relatives r catholic or christian and they try to "psycho" me into joining them
[quote] All religion have such incidents or miracles happening. Even free thinkers can be proclaim dead by doctor for some time before suddenly wake up gasping for breath. Miracles have a "distribution" tat does not depend on your belief. You are right. And i believe miracles are the work of God. But all religion have many things as well. The first 5 books of the Jews, Koran and christian bible are similar. And Many buddhist and hindu concepts are similar. But only one can be the truth since most have opposing claims.Why do u believe in christianity then ? U seems to "just believe" no matter how cruel god is, how error prone the error on the bible, how ridiculous some of the notions sounds and how some stories seemed to be nothing more than fairy tales or myth. U just give me the above idea from your replies. Have u ever hear or consider other religion before ? have u ever consider being a free thinker before ? Why not ? Is your answer going to be "It is because I believe"......... I don't know man.... why become so naive and irrational in tis area....
Me. Though I said I didnt want to talk about my experiences I will state one. I believe that about a year ago, in the middle of a lake in the US, the strength I had to push up just one more time to shout help was not just coincidental but the work of a higher being. I dont think the stories are myth, example Noah's flood. Scientific evidence of fossils do agree with the fact that a massive flood occured. I dont think I will be a free thinker (atheist or agnostic) because there is definately a higher being someone out there. I dont have a question about that to me. Yes, I have considered other religions, mainly buddhism, because hald my family is buddhist and the other half is christian.A hypothetical question.... If tis religion is really "false", wat sort of evidence do u need to convince u about it ? It seems even if a taoist deity came down and perform miracles, u r still going to believe in christianity
What evidence needs to convince me. I dont know. I never thought about that. I dont think I can answer that, I guess it has to be a personal experience issue. "I seem to be the one who will hang the taoist deity", I guess I may but I probably would not because I dont believe in killing others. The Jews killed Jesus because they didnt believe he was the messiah and Jesus said he was. And also, it was largely the Pharisees who were jealous of Jesus and plotted against him.
In fact u seems to be the one tat will hang tis taoist deity or try to assasinate him much like wat hebrew had done to jesus in the bible
In whole, I dont think I will continue in this thread till I have better studied the rest of the doctrines in my beliefs. And moderators, i dont think stupiddissmart is flaming me nor did I intend to flame him so if that is the reason you dont have to close this thread. -
Trying to stir things up? You have a chance to defend your faith and preach your gospel and you think that is a bad thing?Originally posted by Nelstar:why are u people indulging in this topic by someone who probably come to sgforums to post and decide to leave it suddenly so that the anti-christ debate with christians..?
I'm having a very bad opinion of this jennyxxxx character now and I think she was just trying to stir things up.
You cannot defend your faith as you are exhorted to do then at least give some testimonies of why you are a christian!
Don't be a disgrace to your own faith! -
Thread has gone off topic. A reasonable answer was already given.
Thread will be closed by end of this week.
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How many christians, as a percentage are there in this world? So giving birth to children, since you can't kill babies, is sending >80% of people to hell?Originally posted by Guest009:There are people who kill children because they think that the world is too corrupted. But the life of the child is not yours or mine to decide what happens to it.
The logical conclusion would be, not to have babies! Or better still go back in time and not to create people. Just have a lot of animals to play with since when they die, they die! End of story. -
You replying to Nelstar right?Originally posted by chachai001:Trying to stir things up? You have a chance to defend your faith and preach your gospel and you think that is a bad thing?
You cannot defend your faith as you are exhorted to do then at least give some testimonies of why you are a christian!
Don't be a disgrace to your own faith!
Sorry to say, she is not a christian ... lol -
eh? so what's she so upset about?Originally posted by Icemoon:You replying to Nelstar right?
Sorry to say, she is not a christian ... lol -
Hiya!
Now days people won't die for you lah.. you may as well kill someone!!!
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To me i believe the God's son die for us....
I believe tis is from wat u personally interprete or guess, not from the scriptures etc. My questions for u is, why do u think the heart of men r hard then ? From the bible, Jesus seems to be very popular with the masses then. He doesn't seems to have met a lot of people who r hard to trust, hard to love , hard to forgive people etc. There r people tat seemed to have trust in im so much tat he just need him to say the word and his son is cured of leprosy. If he spend more time on earth, his influence will increase. Why kill him prematurely ? Of course he met the parishee or hebrew. But after his death, their attitude still remains very much the same as before. It doesn't soften their heart either. His death is still in vain.
Not becos the God want his Son to die....i guess is during that period , the way the condition the people live in , a hard life... hard to trust, hard to love , hard to forgive people....the heart of the men...i guess has become like a stone.... in the end more and more men turn to sin...
This innocent Man...somehow believe in the good thing of men...but God know that by forgive the men directly, they will throw it away....again.
And this Man agree to die for us....to show the people the goodness of men again...
How???
First He will go through all the pain where no man can stand....to make our heart soft......to make our stoney heart "hear" again...this is a Man that show great forgiveness...a gift given by God through this Man ,....a gift to give us a HOPE that goodness will back to us again....
Love one another....Love your enemy.......
So why do u feel tat people of the past have hearts of stone ? Even if they have hearts of stone, God being omnipotent can make it "soft" again without torturing his son. Thus the question still valid.So you personally have not found the answer
I have found the answer and from my point of view.... it seems u guys r the one tat have lost it....
Anyway.......... IMO, I guess Guest, u r one tat will never change your faith no matter wat
... All I can say to u is.... wish u happiness in all youir endeavour. Try to be more open minded.....Thread has gone off topic. A reasonable answer was already given.
Why want to close the thread ? In tat case I guess there should be hundreds of threads tat need to be close off in this eternal hope.
Thread will be closed by end of this week -
ok lah, you all want to post can lah.. don't get personal at each other..Originally posted by stupidissmart:Why want to close the thread ? In tat case I guess there should be hundreds of threads tat need to be close off in this eternal hope.
help to boost forum rating..
thanks in advance..
alternatively, can use PM. -
[/quote]
I believe tis is from wat u personally interprete or guess, not from the scriptures etc. My questions for u is, why do u think the heart of men r hard then ? From the bible, Jesus seems to be very popular with the masses then. He doesn't seems to have met a lot of people who r hard to trust, hard to love , hard to forgive people etc. There r people tat seemed to have trust in im so much tat he just need him to say the word and his son is cured of leprosy. If he spend more time on earth, his influence will increase. Why kill him prematurely ? Of course he met the parishee or hebrew. But after his death, their attitude still remains very much the same as before. It doesn't soften their heart either. His death is still in vain.
So why do u feel tat people of the past have hearts of stone ? Even if they have hearts of stone, God being omnipotent can make it "soft" again without torturing his son. Thus the question still valid.
[quote]
Good question....i believe that there are many people in that (small) region believe in what He said....and has trusted Him....and has know that He is nearer to God that anyone else...
But equally there are many people who does not believe in what He said.....the Bible written and record during Christ period is those who believe ...but not much about the people that don't believe....guess only the Jew and travellers that live there who don really like Him....
It was this disbelivers who has "stoney" heart.....in long term it will change the heart of the believers...
Remember He is also the Son of Man....a person that physically still have to die....How long He can do the God work??
And at the same time to let people understand God forgiveness is by the blood of his Son.....to remember it by "hard"...."not easily"
That is why i guess....The GOD has plan....The God plan for him to die....and a way to wash our sin ....and a way to remember Him through his Son.......to have hope and wait for his return...
And at the same time.......the believers will spread from that region to the whole world.......always with this true story about relationship about man and God...
Therefore wherever the people who has "stoney" heart.....God always can break it....cos there is this true story that believers can tell about.....the true facts that 1)This person died on cross....2) He die in the name of God for the people.... -
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So why do u feel tat people of the past have hearts of stone ? Even if they have hearts of stone, God being omnipotent can make it "soft" again without torturing his son. Thus the question still valid.
In the beginning, God gave us freedom and He does not want to mess it. Even in Bruce Almighty, Jim Carrey, playing God, cannot make Jennifer Aniston go back to him.
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Good question....i believe that there are many people in that (small) region believe in what He said....and has trusted Him....and has know that He is nearer to God that anyone else...
Okie. Has he really only travels in a small region.... hmm.....But equally there are many people who does not believe in what He said.....the Bible written and record during Christ period is those who believe ...but not much about the people that don't believe....guess only the Jew and travellers that live there who don really like Him....
Then again we r assuming tat there r many people tat do not believe in him from guessing again... I mean they didn't write anything about the other non believers doesn't means the situation is actually quite bad tat there r much more non believers than believers. I thought God should be "patient" why don't he take his time slowly and convinvce people than killing his son ?It was this disbelivers who has "stoney" heart.....in long term it will change the heart of the believers...
He was about thirty... He can have lived for another 40 years for a normal human, which is more than twice the years he "perform miracles". Adam is human and dies at 300 and above... he is God's son and should be able to live forever if he wants.... Why make him leave by death ?
Remember He is also the Son of Man....a person that physically still have to die....How long He can do the God work??And at the same time to let people understand God forgiveness is by the blood of his Son.....to remember it by "hard"...."not easily"
U r right about the guess part since u don't know God himself and neither is it found in bibles etc...
That is why i guess....The GOD has plan....The God plan for him to die....and a way to wash our sin ....and a way to remember Him through his Son.......to have hope and wait for his return...
He could have extend the years Jesus is alive to convince more people. Washing our sins do not need someone to be a scapegoat in the first place, which link back to the original question. People who remember the founder of buddhist prince Sidhartha (not very sure of name) and he didn't have to die either. In fact most religious character do not have to die to be remembered by the people. I mean, did the Chinese monkey god die ? If they can die, it is actually a sign tat it is not a deity or something....And at the same time.......the believers will spread from that region to the whole world.......always with this true story about relationship about man and God...
Asking human to spread the word is equal to making it... untrue... since men will always twist the story or add in more details themselves. Interpretation of the religion varies from people to people.Therefore wherever the people who has "stoney" heart.....God always can break it....cos there is this true story that believers can tell about.....the true facts that 1)This person died on cross....2) He die in the name of God for the people....
I don't think your conclusion is really valid.... It is not "true" unless proven otherwise.
These stories seems to touched only the hearts of believers... U already believe in it then will u feel touched by it. IMO it seems tat believers r the one tat feel the most emotional about the pain of Jesus and non believer treat it as well.... some old story.
This kind of stories... well... is often heard from folktales or other religion too I remember a chinese folktales about a filial son going through hell for her mother. Her mother is supposed to ba a wicked lady and commit a lot of crimes. She don't even take care of tis son properly. When she dies she is suppose to suffer a lot of sentence in hell. This son take the rap for her mother and volunteer to suffer the sentence in her place. U know about chinese hell man... they grind u into lasagne, roast u like chestnuts, deep fry u in oil or force u to climb a knife mountain etc.... anyway because of such overwhelming filial and compassion he became a buddha in hell or something... "If I don't go to hell, who go to hell" (wo bu ru di yu, shui ru di yu) seems to be a famous saying from tis guy. Comparing these 2 stories, it can be seen tat the pain this guy suffer is much more than Jesus.... R u touched by it ? Is your heart soften ? Or do u treat it as just another story ? -
Nobody seems to have mentioned that the Lord Jesus Christ arosed on the third day and ascended up in heaven.
He didn't die just for the sake of dying, He died to fulfill all the laws and prophecies that were made in the Old Testament.
In the Old Testament, there is always a sacrifice to God, this comes in the form of the shedding of blood of a strong young lamb. But Jesus took himself as the Lamb and shed his blood to atone us for our sin.
It is not ,as some may phrase it, "Why did God have to kill his Son?" God didn't kill Jesus. God didn't murder Jesus. Jesus is fully man and fully God, He suffered all the pain to, once again atone us for our sins.
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As for the topic of this thread "did he die for me or not?" i think it is best sum up as - Sufficent for All, Efficent for the Elect. Those who share the same doctrinal stand as mysef would know what this means. -
As for the topic of this thread "did he die for me or not?" i think it is best sum up as - Sufficent for All, Efficent for the Elect. Those who share the same doctrinal stand as mysef would know what this means.
I know I know ... it is efficient for those who are willing to walk through the narrow gate! -
Anyway.......... IMO, I guess Guest, u r one tat will never change your faith no matter wat ... All I can say to u is.... wish u happiness in all youir endeavour. Try to be more open minded.....
Yea.. i dont think anything people say or do can make me change my feelings its a personal thing unlike what some people think. And I do agree with you, I am like that. From my memory I have always stuck with something till the end. Example, a failed RPG site and stuffies like that. I dont think I'm close minded, maybe bias but not close minded.