did he die for me or not?
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according to your logic.... since life on earth is temporal and after death, you live in heaven eternally, isn't it better to kill all babies the minute they are born?Originally posted by Guest009:About the babies going to heaven question.
Adam and Ever realized they were naked after they had sin. Babies are not accountable coz they do not know sin. And if a baby is not baptized, he or she still goes to heaven. Baptism of a baby is more of a committment of the parents they want their child to grow up as a christian. That is why most people get baptized a second time as adults. Baptism is a symbol of washing, true baptism is from the holy spirit.
but I only want to know
Did he die for me? -
but life is given and it's not for us to end it.
Forgiveness generally needs a few elements. The offender's acknowlegment of his wrongdoing, a person's willingness to forgive, and the offender's acceptance/embracement of the forgiveness. If the offender chooses not to accept the forgiveness, even when the other party is willing to forgive, then the offender will not be liberated by the forgiving act.
Jesus came with a mission, to complete the act of redemption. For us to be reconciled with God, He had to sacrifice His life. He did his part on the cross. The act of forgiveness was finished on the cross. He finished His mission on earth.
On our part, we need to acknowledge our sin, accept His death on the cross as forgiveness, and repent. -
Amazing, only after 5 pages and more than 1000 views, someone comes up with something that might actually make some sense! Christians here should really examine what they believe in.Originally posted by sillyme:but life is given and it's not for us to end it.
Forgiveness generally needs a few elements. The offender's acknowlegment of his wrongdoing, a person's willingness to forgive, and the offender's acceptance/embracement of the forgiveness. If the offender chooses not to accept the forgiveness, even when the other party is willing to forgive, then the offender will not be liberated by the forgiving act.
Jesus came with a mission, to complete the act of redemption. For us to be reconciled with God, He had to sacrifice His life. He did his part on the cross. The act of forgiveness was finished on the cross. He finished His mission on earth.
On our part, we need to acknowledge our sin, accept His death on the cross as forgiveness, and repent.
I will think about this and get back to you. -
There are people who kill children because they think that the world is too corrupted. But the life of the child is not yours or mine to decide what happens to it.
And did Jesus die for you. The answer is yes. He died for all. The next question on why he died. He died to pay for the sins of mankind. And why does someone need to pay? Coz the wages of sin is death. Jesus paid the debt for our sins whether you accept the fact that he paid or not that is the question. -
after someone comes up with a good answer you come up with a bad answer again.Originally posted by Guest009:There are people who kill children because they think that the world is too corrupted. But the life of the child is not yours or mine to decide what happens to it.
And did Jesus die for you. The answer is yes. He died for all. The next question on why he died. He died to pay for the sins of mankind. And why does someone need to pay? Coz the wages of sin is death. Jesus paid the debt for our sins whether you accept the fact that he paid or not that is the question.
if like you say, he died to "pay" for the wages - then the "wages" are already paid! he already died. whether one accepts or not, he already died and paid!
what the earlier guy is saying, it is not about "legal" not about payment - that part is settled. It is about forgiveness.
Do you want to be forgiven - you can be forgiven because he died and paid for it.
I have to think about this a bit more than come back..... -
He paid so the debt is paid for. But if you dont accept the fact that he paid, its doesnt mean that the debt is not paid. it means you dont accept it and you continue trying to pay by your own works for it which will never work.
Or another example. Your boss pays you your salary. Its in your bank by you refuse to use it. He has already paid but its by your own choice not to make use of it. THe money is in the bank but you dont take it out to use it. Likewise salvation is there in the bank waiting for you to accept, if you take it out (accept it) then you can make use of it (be saved.)
EDIT: forgive me if my examples are really bad. i'm trying my best to explain it in words. -
You still don't get it do you? It is not about accepting or rejecting. Whether you accept or reject, the wages for your sins are already paid, he already died. It is not money in the bank. It is the money you owe the bank have already been settled.Originally posted by Guest009:He paid so the debt is paid for. But if you dont accept the fact that he paid, its doesnt mean that the debt is not paid. it means you dont accept it and you continue trying to pay by your own works for it which will never work.
Or another example. Your boss pays you your salary. Its in your bank by you refuse to use it. He has already paid but its by your own choice not to make use of it. THe money is in the bank but you dont take it out to use it. Likewise salvation is there in the bank waiting for you to accept, if you take it out (accept it) then you can make use of it (be saved.)
EDIT: forgive me if my examples are really bad. i'm trying my best to explain it in words.
The bank then says, OK now that all your debts have been settled, you can be our friend again. You can do business with our bank again - we can forgive you. Before your debts were settled, we cannot be your friend.
Of course you can say - go and jump into the lake - I will go to another bank.
That does not mean that your debts have not been paid! It has been paid - but you do not want to have anything to do with this bank. You want to do business with another bank!
but like I say, I will think about this a bit more, the implications. -
there is no such things as free lunch i believe.
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there is no such things as free lunch i believe.
It is not a free lunch ... 'cos you have to eat the humble pie. Are you willing to eat it? -
jennyxxxxx001
u buey sian of this question? -
jenny send me PM to say she does not want to make posts in sgfor anymore.Originally posted by Nelstar:jennyxxxxx001
u buey sian of this question? -
so big reaction. wah.Originally posted by chachai001:jenny send me PM to say she does not want to make posts in sgfor anymore.
she angry? -
jenny send me PM to say she does not want to make posts in sgfor anymore.
What you mean? Didn't she say she's gonna think about it and come back to us? -
You imply that Christianity is not logical? That it is impossible to be "convinced by arguments?"
From logic 101, we know there are two criteria for an argument - validity and soundness. The first one is easy to pass, as long as you don't commit any fallacy.
The second one is a bit harder. If you know how a valid argument progresses to a sound argument, then you know why it is so hard. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
er... wat makes u so sure tat we have to " eat the humble pie".
[b]there is no such things as free lunch i believe.
It is not a free lunch ... 'cos you have to eat the humble pie. Are you willing to eat it?[/b]
any1 told u tat we all have eaten the pie? -
They tell us first step is to acknowledge we are a sinful person. Isn't this humble enough a pie to eat?
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Hu r "they" ?Originally posted by Icemoon:They tell us first step is to acknowledge we are a sinful person. Isn't this humble enough a pie to eat? -
Christians?
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y do u put a "?" in ur reply. seems like u r unsure of ur ans.Originally posted by Icemoon:Christians? -
No la ... I thought the ans was obvious. Was quite surprised by your question.
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den how do christian noe we had to eat the pie???Originally posted by Icemoon:No la ... I thought the ans was obvious. Was quite surprised by your question. -
I do belive I get it and belive in it. I'm not talking about the bank I am talking about Jesus paying the debt. Like in my bad example Jesus paid the wages. The money left in the bank in example is refering to the fact that salavtion is there. Whether you except or not then will lead to you going to heaven or not. Everyone is gonna have eternal life, only depends on where.Originally posted by jennyxxxxx001:You still don't get it do you? It is not about accepting or rejecting. Whether you accept or reject, the wages for your sins are already paid, he already died. It is not money in the bank. It is the money you owe the bank have already been settled.
The bank then says, OK now that all your debts have been settled, you can be our friend again. You can do business with our bank again - we can forgive you. Before your debts were settled, we cannot be your friend.
Of course you can say - go and jump into the lake - I will go to another bank.
That does not mean that your debts have not been paid! It has been paid - but you do not want to have anything to do with this bank. You want to do business with another bank!
but like I say, I will think about this a bit more, the implications. -
mayb we should stop tis debate??? its not going anywhere.
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So make up your mind. Who is your real father ? Which fellow you own half of your chromosomes to?
U have been living with a father tat had raised u up. Now comes another "real" father who u believe to have given u half of your chromosomes.Remember your goal and purpose is to find the real father, not anyone who cares for you. So don't give me the crap anyone can be your father.
Now tat is an interesting question. SO u only care who is your real father and had thrown u away than not one who has raise u up ?
Anyway talking about "father" is getting out of point :s
To people, telling them tat believing is just "receiving" is wrong. They have to pay a price which is forfeit their old religion since from previous discussion, only Christians get to be saved. For a real offer, there shouldn't have such a demand. Why doesn't he "saved" people regardless of their religion ? Whether u believe in Jesus is immaterial if he really want to help people. He demand people to believe in him THEN he give out help. The word THEN in the previous statement is very important. It is a condition.
From wat I see, it is not an offer, it is a order, demand or trade watever u call it. If u still wanna go around in circles and refuse to answer why doesn't he give out help regardless of religion, which will then make it into a real gift, then there is nothing left to be said.
WHy don't both sides stop giving example to confuse the people but by just answering my question ?About the babies going to heaven question.
However there is not wat the bible or catholic says about baptised. They say tat if babies are not baptised and die, then they will go to limbo. Limbo should be somewhere worse than hell where there appears to have nothing. Care to explain anything about limbo ?
Adam and Ever realized they were naked after they had sin. Babies are not accountable coz they do not know sin. And if a baby is not baptized, he or she still goes to heaven. Baptism of a baby is more of a committment of the parents they want their child to grow up as a christian. That is why most people get baptized a second time as adults. Baptism is a symbol of washing, true baptism is from the holy spirit.but life is given and it's not for us to end it.
ABout Jenny question, it is not without merits. Life is given, it is not for us to end it. However if I LOVE my child and want him to go to heaven instead of staying in human hell, then I should kill him straight away, throwing all the sins to myself, or condemn to be forever in hell while enabling my child to raise to heaven. As wat guest as said, babies have no sins and go direct to heaven. Why not do tis ?Forgiveness generally needs a few elements. The offender's acknowlegment of his wrongdoing, a person's willingness to forgive, and the offender's acceptance/embracement of the forgiveness. If the offender chooses not to accept the forgiveness, even when the other party is willing to forgive, then the offender will not be liberated by the forgiving act.
Is tat so ? If the person is not willing to accept he is wrong, then it means they cannot be forgiven ? If A was knocked down by B accidentally and caused him to fell down, if B never apologise or admit he is wrong, A can NEVER NEVER EVER forgive B even though it is a small incident ? If I accidentally said something tat offend u, and I never apologise or admit I am wrong, I can never ever be forgiven ? If for the previous example, someone says he "forgiven" me and I rebuked it, does tat means u must bear it in your heart and never ever forgive me ?
Isn't just forgiveness from one party enough ? Don't we always do tat ? Somewhere somehow there will always be small minor mishap tat we forgive the other party without fulfilling all these strange criteria. Why need so many "criteria" ?
BTW wat had we done tat need to be forgiven ?Jesus came with a mission, to complete the act of redemption. For us to be reconciled with God, He had to sacrifice His life. He did his part on the cross. The act of forgiveness was finished on the cross. He finished His mission on earth.
And wat had been changed ? Life goes on and nothing is different. How do u know he is wat he claims ? Before he appears, there doesn't seems to have a problem of all people "sinning" and need forgiveness etc. It is only after he appears then he says men have sinned and need forgiveness. Doesn't tat sounds fishy ?And did Jesus die for you. The answer is yes. He died for all. The next question on why he died. He died to pay for the sins of mankind. And why does someone need to pay? Coz the wages of sin is death. Jesus paid the debt for our sins whether you accept the fact that he paid or not that is the question.
How do u know he die for all ? Do u understand how God think or work ? Just say "Yes" doesn't sound convincing or rational. Pay for the sins of mankind ? Pay to who and how ? To his own father by by being killed by his own father ! Doesn't tat sounds illogical ? His father could have just forgive, or "remove" the debt easily. Why kill his own son before "removing" the debts ?It is not a free lunch ... 'cos you have to eat the humble pie. Are you willing to eat it?
So u r trying to say u have to eat "humble pie" before getting the "free lunch" ? Then sorry man, this lunch comes with a price (eating humble pies) and is no longer free.I do belive I get it and belive in it. I'm not talking about the bank I am talking about Jesus paying the debt. Like in my bad example Jesus paid the wages. The money left in the bank in example is refering to the fact that salavtion is there. Whether you except or not then will lead to you going to heaven or not. Everyone is gonna have eternal life, only depends on where.
When u put money in the bank, u can get a receipt or confirmation from the bank tat the money is there. Otherwise u may work like sh!t and all for nothing. If u work in a company, and he tell u tat he is putting money into the bank, will u go and check out if the money is in ? Of course u will check ! Just believing blindly to wat your employers say is naive. -
U have been living with a father tat had raised u up. Now comes another "real" father who u believe to have given u half of your chromosomes ... Anyway talking about "father" is getting out of point
In the very beginning, I already said you were an orphan. But you twisted my analogy and invented a foster father. My original was and still is - IF you believe that man to be your father, then you cannot believe another man to be your father. The crux is, the christian worldview entails the one and only G-d YHWH. So if you believe in it, there's no reason why you can also believe in the polytheism of other religions. Unless you're an irrational person.
Why doesn't he "saved" people regardless of their religion ? ... He demand people to believe in him THEN he give out help. The word THEN in the previous statement is very important. It is a condition.
This question is related to another common question - does G-d listen to prayers of unbelievers? Many protestants will tell you ... no.
However there is not wat the bible or catholic says about baptised. They say tat if babies are not baptised and die, then they will go to limbo.
Physical baptism is still a 'work'. It is external 'action action' only. G-d looks at the heart, not by appearance.
Before he appears, there doesn't seems to have a problem of all people "sinning" and need forgiveness etc. It is only after he appears then he says men have sinned and need forgiveness. Doesn't tat sounds fishy ?
Rubbish. If this is so, why did the Hebrews sacrifce the lamb to G-d every year?
So u r trying to say u have to eat "humble pie" before getting the "free lunch" ? Then sorry man, this lunch comes with a price (eating humble pies) and is no longer free.
When I say free, I mean you don't have to work for it, like doing good works.