did he die for me or not?
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he died for me perfectly means he died for me perfectly... what has serving this one and that one got to do with it?Originally posted by sillyme:Christ did die for you.
Imagine the existence of two masters, ABC and XYZ. We were slaves to ABC. XYZ paid for your freedom (fully). But if we choose to continue serving ABC, then we are still not free from ABC.
in your example, if i continue to serve ABC, i am free to continue to serve ABC, whereas previously I was compelled to serve ABC. -
then up to you lor.. you must know ABC and XYZ are on opposite sides mah..Originally posted by jennyxxxxx001:he died for me perfectly means he died for me perfectly... what has serving this one and that one got to do with it?
in your example, if i continue to serve ABC, i am free to continue to serve ABC, whereas previously I was compelled to serve ABC.
you can still choose to serve ABC lah.. but anytime you want to go back to XYZ, you know you're free to do so lah.. but then you must know ABC is fake one lah.. ABC used to be servant of XYZ, and he rebelled against XYZ.. one day XYZ will destroy ABC to end it all.. by then it'll be too late to switch sides lor..
but it's up to you lah.. He died for you.. if you think you already claim your redemption.. then good for you lah.. i wish you all the best..
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you see... you said "claim the redemption" like it is pro-active... like I must somehow do something... in your case "Claim"Originally posted by sillyme:then up to you lor.. you must know ABC and XYZ are on opposite sides mah..
you can still choose to serve ABC lah.. but anytime you want to go back to XYZ, you know you're free to do so lah.. but then you must know ABC is fake one lah.. ABC used to be servant of XYZ, and he rebelled against XYZ.. one day XYZ will destroy ABC to end it all.. by then it'll be too late to switch sides lor..
but it's up to you lah.. He died for you.. if you think you already claim your redemption.. then good for you lah.. i wish you all the best..
what i am trying to say is it should be .... like in The passion...
IT IS FINISH! -
precisely. you must do something about it. knowledge and acceptance of something are two different issues.
it's like discovering and finding your real father. you know who he is now. the next step is to accept him and develop a relationship with him.
for those interested to know why Jesus had to die, here's a text of 'Mere Christianity' of C.S. Lewis. Read up on Book Two, the section on 'The Shocking Alternative'. But those serioiusly interested, do buy the book and read from that start. It's a good read -
to say that i have to somehow - do something - is to say that it was not perfect. that something is missing.Originally posted by sillyme:precisely. you must do something about it. knowledge and acceptance of something are two different issues.
it's like discovering and finding your real father. you know who he is now. the next step is to accept him and develop a relationship with him.
for those interested to know why Jesus had to die, here's a text of 'Mere Christianity' of C.S. Lewis. Read up on Book Two, the section on 'The Shocking Alternative'. But those serioiusly interested, do buy the book and read from that start. It's a good read
and then there are those who did not even know! don't tell me since he died, everybody knew? and what about those who came before him?
why do you people keep insisting that i must do something? its like, do you people in the first place believe that he died for me?
do you people believe that it was perfect?
It should be like in THE PASSION - IT IS FINISH! -
nothing is missing lah..
the fact is that while we're alive, we found this truth of Him dying for us. and we also know that He desires our love. and loving someone requires action. so we make a decision to obey His commandments.. and until we are called back to heaven..
but if you feel that you don't have to do a thing about it.. then carry on with your life as it is lor.. -
how can you like that? you or if you cannot, somebody must give me a good answer right?... how can say "I don't care, you carry on?"Originally posted by sillyme:nothing is missing lah..
the fact is that while we're alive, we found this truth of Him dying for us. and we also know that He desires our love. and loving someone requires action. so we make a decision to obey His commandments.. and until we are called back to heaven..
but if you feel that you don't have to do a thing about it.. then carry on with your life as it is lor..
you must also want to know the truth right? how about those who don't know, who never knew he died?
he died for me means he died for me.... what is all this yes..... but? -
i've heard about His death, i've accepted it as the truth and i'm doing something about it.
and yup, i gave my answers. those who want to know, i'll tell them. not that i don't care, but whether they accept it or not, i don't have much a choice. those who have ears, let them hear.
my faith is simple. maybe someone else can share their views better -
and then there are those who did not even know! don't tell me since he died, everybody knew? and what about those who came before him?
How about this? Those who reject the gospel will burn in the lake of fire.
Those who know nothing about Christ are judged by other ways, which does not apply to you, since you should have heard the gospel. Well, you watched the Passion and read postings in Eternal Hope right? -
Wat is karma ? Why don't u elaborate
Forgive me, my mistake. I forget what I wanted to say, or that it doesn't really apply here. Sorry.
If God really forgive us our sins, then he should have forgiven wat Adam and Eve had done and NOT give us death, pain, pregnancy, work etc.
Once again, this is a strawman. G-d did not give us the sufferings you mentioned.
Why is everything very much the same before and after his death ? He says our sins were clensed, how do u know ? Nothing had changed isn't it ?
How can you ever know anything ... except the famous Cartesian implication that you have a mind?
Perhaps G-d's view of you have changed.
What are his objectives when he made us in the first place ? To build up something that resembles himself ! He is building us the same reasons we build dolls ! U call tat love ?
You think what ... goddess Nu Wa making clay dolls ah? Duh.
U don't even understand him in the first place !
I suppose nobody will, other than what was revealed.
Tat is right. It is the same as sh!ting and breathing. To be alive is to sin. more than 10 billion people have lived in this world and none of them do not sin. So why punish people just because they sin ?
Hmm, this is actually a theological question. You have to ask yourself what's the biblical definition of sin. If you ask me, I'll say it is just "missing the mark", or 'het' in Hebrew.
No, I can't believe why he need to sacrifice his son to forgive us when he he just need to forgive us. SACRIFICE is not needed in the first place !
In the OT, sacrifice was using the blood of the lamb.
It is he who insisted tat someone need to be sacrificed ! He just want him to die in pain !
Read the previous line. Clearly, it is not a case of pure human sacrifice. -
Who is the strawmen ? The one who wrote Genesis ?
Once again, this is a strawman. G-d did not give us the sufferings you mentioned.
http://www.carm.org/kjv/Gen/Gen_3.htm
So didn't God make women give birth in pain and make men work in field to survive ? Is in the genesis isn't it ? How do u interprete the lines in bold above ? Why do u deny that they met out these "punishment" just because we eat the fruit of wisdom ? So if God really want to forgive men sin, why doesn't he forgive Adam and Eve and stop all these pain in pregnancy and work and death ? If he didn't create these sufferings who did ?
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.How can you ever know anything ... except the famous Cartesian implication that you have a mind?
Seems u have acknowledge tat nothing physical has change, then why r u so confident his words is true ? Nothing change, no evidence given, nothing. All jesus did is just say when he die he will wash our sins away. Any Tom Dick and Harry can say tat. They do not need to prove anythign either.You think what ... goddess Nu Wa making clay dolls ah? Duh
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them
Than wat is the purpose of God creating men ? Instead of just being sacastic and hit selected lines, why don't u tell me the reason they create men ?I suppose nobody will, other than what was revealed
SInce nobody know him or why he does things, I suppose it is equally likely tat God is a devil in disguise since he is a "prince of lies" and "divine" while men r "foolish" and cannot see through his deceit. Go and ponder about it.Hmm, this is actually a theological question. You have to ask yourself what's the biblical definition of sin. If you ask me, I'll say it is just "missing the mark", or 'het' in Hebrew.
SO jesus say he will wash our sins. SO wat he does ? Wash the "marks" and give us perfect grades ?In the OT, sacrifice was using the blood of the lamb.
U r not reading correctly. WHY SACRIFICE JESUS in order to forgive men ? I am not talking about lamb or ritual ! I am asking why God kill Jesus to forgive us when he can directly forgive us ! Wat is the logic behind it ?
Read the previous line. Clearly, it is not a case of pure human sacrifice
A general say to all his soldiers "All of u do not breath ! If u breath I will kill u !". After tat he saw his son and shot him dead. He then say "He dies for u all, now u all can breath"
Wat do u think ?
1. IMO the general's request for not breathing is ABSURB. Can anyone not breath ? Can men not sin ? Why punish men for doing something tat is not achievable in the first place ?
2. Second he is cruel and kill his son for NOTHING. He could have just retract his order in the first place. Why can't God just forgive people sin directly instead of killing his own favourite son before forgiving ? I am asking why do God want to do this ????
3. Third he made himself and his son seems so noble though he had done something ridiculously absurb through 1 and 2. Same as wat Jesus gone through. -
Why do u deny that they met out these "punishment" just because we eat the fruit of wisdom ?
You are right. I shouldn't deny that. A slip on my part.
I take back my strawman.
*Carries strawman back from stupidissmart's house*
Seems u have acknowledge tat nothing physical has change, then why r u so confident his words is true ?
Did I say I am?
Than wat is the purpose of God creating men ?
Hmmm .. why ah?
equally likely tat God is a devil in disguise since he is a "prince of lies" and "divine" while men r "foolish" and cannot see through his deceit.
So how? This "devil" wants us to believe him or burn us in the lake. You not scared meh?
SO jesus say he will wash our sins. SO wat he does ?
This one must ask regular church-goes. It is basically what the pastor likes to say during the altar call.
U r not reading correctly. WHY SACRIFICE JESUS in order to forgive men ? I am not talking about lamb or ritual !
But the lamb biz is important. Without that, there is no basis for Jesus' sacrifice.
A general say to all his soldiers "All of u do not breath ! If u breath I will kill u !". After tat he saw his son and shot him dead. He then say "He dies for u all, now u all can breath"
Wat do u think ?
I think it is a cute analogy. [/b] -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
You mean as a Christian you also believe that there are other ways to go to heaven? Since they will be judged by "other ways"? So what are the other ways? Muslim way? Buddhist way? Hindu way?
[b]and then there are those who did not even know! don't tell me since he died, everybody knew? and what about those who came before him?
How about this? Those who reject the gospel will burn in the lake of fire.
Those who know nothing about Christ are judged by other ways, which does not apply to you, since you should have heard the gospel. Well, you watched the Passion and read postings in Eternal Hope right?[/b]
why should anybody "accept or reject? he has died, he has paid the price, IT IS FINISH! accept what? reject what? -
you also believe that there are other ways to go to heaven?
Why not? Some christians believe [baptised] infants will go to heaven when they die as an infant. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
according to the christians, what basis do these infants go to heaven? because of baptism (which they totally have no say) or because he died for them?
[b]you also believe that there are other ways to go to heaven?
Why not? Some christians believe [baptised] infants will go to heaven when they die as an infant.[/b]
if because he died for them, well there you have it - nothing to do with "acceptance or rejection" - it is done deal. -
Originally posted by jennyxxxxx001:
u keep repeatinf the words of Christ 'It is finished' without understanding wat u r rattling abt. It is finished means the atonement for sins r finished. That work is done and completed but again, it is not auto-transferable. certain things though is applicable to all but is only in effect when the person opt for it. U cannot force ur way thru saying it is finished and there all r saved while they outright reject Him.
You mean as a Christian you also believe that there are other ways to go to heaven? Since they will be judged by "other ways"? So what are the other ways? Muslim way? Buddhist way? Hindu way?
why should anybody [b]"accept or reject? he has died, he has paid the price, IT IS FINISH! accept what? reject what?[/b]
Do not take something from someone when u hate that person. -
When I quote "IT IS FINISH" I mean it exactly like you.Originally posted by NeonTetra:u keep repeatinf the words of Christ 'It is finished' without understanding wat u r rattling abt. It is finished means the atonement for sins r finished. That work is done and completed but again, it is not auto-transferable. certain things though is applicable to all but is only in effect when the person opt for it. U cannot force ur way thru saying it is finished and there all r saved while they outright reject Him.
Do not take something from someone when u hate that person.
quote you:
"It is finished means the atonement for sins r finished. That work is done and completed"
end of quote
What do you mean it is not auto-transferable?
What is transferable or not transferable?
What is there to take or reject?
Whatever anybody do or not do, accept or reject: "the atonement for sins r finished. That work is done and completed" to quote you. -
then why u keep asking whether did He die for you. when ppl say He did but that doesnt mean all will be saved..u say otherwise. We have said and explain wat we can say and explain.Originally posted by jennyxxxxx001:When I quote "IT IS FINISH" I mean it exactly like you.
quote you:
"It is finished means the atonement for sins r finished. That work is done and completed"
end of quote
What do you mean it is not auto-transferable?
What is transferable or not transferable?
What is there to take or reject?
Whatever anybody do or not do, accept or reject: "the atonement for sins r finished. That work is done and completed" to quote you. -
Do you have scriptural references to back up your view? I mean all the while you're just harping on the "it is finished" and it is getting boring.Originally posted by jennyxxxxx001:Whatever anybody do or not do, accept or reject: "the atonement for sins r finished. That work is done and completed" to quote you.
Throw in some other verses as well mah. -
I explained that somebody said he died for me... but there is some more. If he died for me then, to me there is no more.Originally posted by NeonTetra:then why u keep asking whether did He die for you. when ppl say He did but that doesnt mean all will be saved..u say otherwise. We have said and explain wat we can say and explain.
so if he believed that he died for me, that his death really solved the problem, then it is over.
to say that it is a perfect solution and then to say that I must accept and or reject means that it is not a perfect solution. my acceptance or rejection does not change the fact that he died and that it was a perfect solution.
I brought up the issue of those who did not even know he died for them. how then are they going to accept and or reject? what about those who died before he came? so accepting and or rejecting is a red herring. it is redundant.
this this a christian sub-forum, i was hoping to get the answer here. but so far - everybody insists that his death is perfect and then say you must accept. accepting does not change the fact that he died.
to say one must accept would imply that it was not the perfect solution. yet nobody wants to come out and say - it is not the perfect solution.
then out of the blue someone comes up and say that there are other ways to go to heaven.
don't keep harping on "you must accept." It is getting boring to keep hearing that when you don't give me a good answer as to how accepting affects his perfect sacrifice.
don't keep harping on "if you reject you go to hell." It is getting boring to keep hearing that when you don't give me a good answer as to how rejecting affects his perfect sacrifice. -
I am trying to use logic. not scriptural references. unless you tell me that christianity is not logical ...... which then opens up another can of worms...Originally posted by Icemoon:Do you have scriptural references to back up your view? I mean all the while you're just harping on the "it is finished" and it is getting boring.
Throw in some other verses as well mah. -
imagine this. your birthday is coming. a good friend hopes to make your birthday a memorable one. he goes around looking for a perfect gift. he finds it and wraps it up (and shouts, "it is finished!"). he gives it to you, but you reject it.
your rejection means that you don't get to keep the gift or enjoy it. but your rejection doesn't change the fact that the gift is paid, and bought for you.
going to the two masters scenario. the fact is that his freedom was bought and paid for (and shouts, "it is finished!"). but the unwillingness to accept the new master would deny the slave's right to his new inheritance. -
The question is is tat suppose to be a gift or a trade ?
My answer is, it it not a gift. It has a condition stipulated in it. That is u must be a believer.
Lets say there is a buddhist who believe in buddhist and practise to attain nirvana. Now came this notion tat if he start to believe in Jesus, he get to go to heaven if he dies. So wat route should tis buddhist go ? If he choose to go to Jesus, he missed the "opportunity cost" of able to attain nirvana. In tat case, is tat still consider as a gift ? Is tat unconditional ? If it is unconditional, then whether this person believe in buddhist or taoist or Islam, he should still get to heaven with fail.
Lets talk about a story if u like. There is A, who work in a company and getting his usual salary in an environment where it is hard to get a job. One day a stranger approach him and told him he was headhunted to go to China and work in a firm where he is suppose to get a higher salary. However because the company is too new, he cannot get any research or anything about tis new company. Is a gamble.
IF he goes to China, it means he needs to quit and take a risk going over. If it turn out to be a deceit, he may not get a job when he is back. If he stays here, he still get his old pay and continue to live his life.
Tis is a job offer. But does it come totally with no strings attached ? Is it as wat some said, a birthday gift and I just simply refuse to take it ? Nope. The giver of this "gift" is petty. If I take his gift, I cannot take the gift from other people anymore. Other people gift which has also been prepared with all the efforts and dedication may not be not any lesser than his. If I take "jesus" one, that means I have to forfeit the rest of the other presents tat can be given to me. I suffer an "opportunity cost".
DO not be greedy and take tis "gift" without thinking...... U might miss out other things in life.... -
Why not? Some christians believe [baptised] infants will go to heaven when they die as an infant.
Now tat is silly. So if babies aren't baptise and die, will they go to hell or limbo ?
I thought some christians say if one do not know anything about jesus and thus fail to become a christian. It is no fault of his and he still get to heaven. A baby couldn't have know anything, which of course include religion. So by using this theory, the babies should go to heaven whether he is baptised or not.
SO we come to another christian dilemma. If we do not baptise the children, do they go to limbo, hell or heaven ? If they go to heaven, then wat is the point of baptise ? -
Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Paul..a severe persecutor of the Church after he was converted said this, "But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ"
The question is is tat suppose to be a gift or a trade ?
My answer is, it it not a gift. It has a condition stipulated in it. That is u must be a believer.
Lets say there is a buddhist who believe in buddhist and practise to attain nirvana. Now came this notion tat if he start to believe in Jesus, he get to go to heaven if he dies. So wat route should tis buddhist go ? If he choose to go to Jesus, he missed the "opportunity cost" of able to attain nirvana. In tat case, is tat still consider as a gift ? Is tat unconditional ? If it is unconditional, then whether this person believe in buddhist or taoist or Islam, he should still get to heaven with fail.
Lets talk about a story if u like. There is A, who work in a company and getting his usual salary in an environment where it is hard to get a job. One day a stranger approach him and told him he was headhunted to go to China and work in a firm where he is suppose to get a higher salary. However because the company is too new, he cannot get any research or anything about tis new company. Is a gamble.
IF he goes to China, it means he needs to quit and take a risk going over. If it turn out to be a deceit, he may not get a job when he is back. If he stays here, he still get his old pay and continue to live his life.
Tis is a [b]job offer. But does it come totally with no strings attached ? Is it as wat some said, a birthday gift and I just simply refuse to take it ? Nope. If I take this gift, it may simply means I cannot take other people's gift which has also been prepared with all the efforts and dedication. I can only choose to take one. If I take "jesus" one, that means I have to forfeit the rest of the other presents tat can be given to me. I suffer an "opportunity cost".
DO not be greedy and take tis "gift" without thinking...... U might miss out other things in life.... [/b]
-Philippians 3:7-8
I would like to summarise all that we have discussed so far and this thread shall come to a close. Silly, M and I have explain all we have and presented the Scripture and teachings in its simplicity. Acceptance or rejection of this teaching is not our primarily concern when we answer, just to help clear some doubts.
Here are some mainpoints Christianity teaches:
1. Salvation is provided solely through Jesus Christ and no one else.
2. Salvation comes from the grace of God and accepted by faith. Never to be attained by works.
3. Salvation though offers freely to all is in a way limited. Limited means it is not automatic applicable to all and must be received personally.
4. The redemptive work of Christ on the cross, His one perfect sacrifice is completed and fufils righteousness and love in every way.
5. Rejection of Jesus Christ equals the rejection of His saving work on the cross and thus His Salvation provided.