What does Roman Catholics believe in?
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my apologies for being away. i will not be posting much only after the 22nd as i am having my exams. stupidissmart, please hang in there as i will get back to you on the 6+5 from the bible.
Just a quick comment here, about a cruel God, say if Hitler was to have true repentance of his sins and called upon the Lord's name for salvation before his pass away (assume he didn't commit suicide like he did), God will forgive him and he will enter into Heaven's glory. Sounds unfair but that's the mercy of God. stupidissmart will surely have lots to say about this.
Icemoon bought up an interesting point about the Crusaders. Well, my guess is that they will still be trapped in purgatory, nobody to pay for their escape out of purgatory. .........wait a minute, there's no such thing as purgatory. silly me. -
All sinners (everyone living in this world) will be judged by God.
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While it is true that the apostles disagreed and argued with one another, it is no cause for worry - disagreement and debate is how the truth is sought. Christ said that the Holy Spirit would not let them go astray, not that they would never argue about Church matters. That's why the Council of Jerusalem was called (Acts 15); some of the twelve taught that circumcision was required for salvation, others that it was not. They had to work it out before they officially declared that it was not required for one to enter the Kingdom.Originally posted by Icemoon:Where where? Tell me leh, I'm interested to know!
Oftentimes, the Holy Spirit uses those who are not apostles (or their inheritors, the bishops) to get them in line. Though Paul was an apostle, we have numerous examples of priests and laity "setting straight" (in a prudent and charitable way) some of those who had gone astray. St. Catherine of Siena got one of the Gregorys to move the papacy from Avignon back to Rome; St. Dominic assisted the bishops in getting the Moors out of Spain; St. Thomas More tried to set Cardinal Wolsey right during the reign of Henry VIII. These examples don't contradict the teaching authority of the apostles or their inheritors, it merely shows that sometimes they can use a bit of help. Hope this helps. -
Christ said that the Holy Spirit would not let them go astray, not that they would never argue about Church matters.
I'm glad to hear that. So the Protestants from Luther onwards never really go astray, even though they argue about Church (note that big C) matters.
Great ... so they never really go astray even though Catholics brand Protestantism as a heresy. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
Never really go astray? I'm not too sure... If they didn't go astray, why are there so many denominations now? Why are they multiplying?
[b]Christ said that the Holy Spirit would not let them go astray, not that they would never argue about Church matters.
I'm glad to hear that. So the Protestants from Luther onwards never really go astray, even though they argue about Church (note that big C) matters.
Great ... so they never really go astray even though Catholics brand Protestantism as a heresy.[/b] -
stupidissmart, this is for you. please refer to the previous postings we exchanged.
6+5 Interpretation of Scripture
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1) The Inspiration of Scripture - 2 Timothy 3:16
2) The Inerrancy of Scripture - Deut. 32:4
3) The Authority of Scripture - John 1:1
4) The Unity of Scripture - All 66 books.
5) The Clarity of Scripture - Psalm 19:8
6) The Practical Purpose of Scripture - 2 Timothy 3:16
1. Interpret Organically - Scripture interprets Scripture (see point 4)
2. Interpret Literally - Example :Understanding Parables
3. Interpret Practically - Book of Ezra
4. Interpret in Community - Ephesians 3:18
5. Interpret Prayerfully - 2 Tim. 2:7
Pray that you have a bible to refer to. -
the presence of many denominations does not mean it has gone astray. protestant denominations are one body in Christ...we still interact and in touch.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Never really go astray? I'm not too sure... If they didn't go astray, why are there so many denominations now? Why are they multiplying? -
1) The Inspiration of Scripture - 2 Timothy 3:16
Okie, so the bible says tat all the scriptures were written by god and he is suppose to be perfect thus the bible is perfect.
2) The Inerrancy of Scripture - Deut. 32:4
But wat do we actually see in real life ? Is the bible perfect ? If it is perfect, why r there so many different interpretation on it ? If it is perfect, then how come men need to debate among themselves (issue on circumcism) on wat to include in the scripture or not. If it is perfect, why r we seeing so much contradictions in the scriptures ? In short if the genuity from the above 2 statements seems to have failed, then the whole scriptures appears to have failed as well.3) The Authority of Scripture - John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Frankly literally interpreting tis statement does not yield the result tat bible should have authority. Can u safely say tat the "word" is actually scriptures in the first place ?4) The Unity of Scripture - All 66 books
there is a need to be more precise.5) The Clarity of Scripture - Psalm 19:8
the precepts of the Lord are right,
rejoicing the heart;
the commandment of the Lord is pure,
enlightening the eyes;
If perfect clarity is present then there shouldn't have different interpretations among men. BTW reading the statement literally, it just means the bible teaches good to the people, not saying tat it is clear and not ambiguous. In fact different interpretation for tis statement is already a sign tat the scripture has poor clarity.6) The Practical Purpose of Scripture - 2 Timothy 3:16
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
Okie, so it is used for these functions only.1. Interpret Organically - Scripture interprets Scripture (see point 4)
Please be more precise...2. Interpret Literally - Example :Understanding Parables
Good, I believe the scripture should be interpreted literally as well. But doesn't tat sounds as a contradiction to the point on interpreting organically ? Interprete organically or interprete literally ? Both may yield different result3. Interpret Practically - Book of Ezra
First please be more precise, secondly it talked about tons of the old rituals made to god like burning incense, sacrifices, discrimination to women and spending money to build a church. If u interprete scriptures practically then u probably have to follow wat they describe in the bible. Women stoned to death for adultery, get bless by a priest when u r sick etc4. Interpret in Community - Ephesians 3:18
May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height
Frankly I see little link on the above statement to interprete in community... Unless u r going to tell me all people in the community r saints and u r interpreting the... well.. measurement of something...5. Interpret Prayerfully - 2 Tim. 2:7
Consider what I say; and the Lord give thee understanding in all things.
Frankly if u read what he had said, tat is 2tim. 2:1-2:6, there is nothing tat suggest praying. Lord gives u understand but it never mention the way to get it is through prayers.. rather from wat he said it is from enduring hardship as "soldier" of jesus christ.
Not to be rude but I really don't find the answer satisfying for certain of the scriptures. -
stupidissmart, i will not be able to explain all this in this forum because there is just too much information - as i always say, this info is worth a week of a church camp. In lieu of this i can slowly explain this when time allows me to. meanwhile i encourage you to visit a bible-believeing church because it is very apparent that you are someone of high intellectual (not trying to boost your ego here.)
stay tuned. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
IMHO, people will always have different views when it comes to faith. I too, is skeptical about what faith really is and will prefer to learn more about it and not believing blindly. For example, I will never agree with my gf that u can learn to speak in tongues, nor i will agree with her pastor that speaking in tongues are mandatory and not an option. Though differing views leads to conflicts, it also makes me realised that it act as a check and balance. I once said my gf was extreme as she believed she can speak in tongues after hearing a sermon on it. However, my gf finds me too extreme now as I disagree with her with everything regards to charismata. When I reflect upon myself, she is not wrong to find me 'too extreme'. I do get carried away when we had too many arguements.
[b]Christ said that the Holy Spirit would not let them go astray, not that they would never argue about Church matters.
I'm glad to hear that. So the Protestants from Luther onwards never really go astray, even though they argue about Church (note that big C) matters.
Great ... so they never really go astray even though Catholics brand Protestantism as a heresy.[/b]
Men, denominations will always have faults because we are not perfect. But it is still best to concentrate what is most important, which is always what my gf says I am lacking in: faith in God. Another thing I found out from my conflicts is love matters most. Men and denominations will fade away, but words of truth and love will prevail. -
Away with all the denominations thing....
all u need is to be a BIBLE-BELIEVING CHRISTIAN.
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I will never agree with my gf that u can learn to speak in tongues ... I once said my gf was extreme as she believed she can speak in tongues after hearing a sermon on it.
It is the gift of tongue we're talking about. Obviously you can't learn to acquire a gift. The gift is God-given.
Can someone recommend an authoritative book/classic on Charismatic practices?
When I say classic, I don't mean the books we find in bookstores for laymen. I mean a classic studied by theologians, like Systematic Theology. -
Tried to borrow a tape on sermon of tongues from my gf, she refused to lend me on the fear that we may argue more abt itOriginally posted by Icemoon:[b]
Can someone recommend an authoritative book/classic on Charismatic practices?
I am curious as to how Charismatics are able to 'teach' tongues.
Have been surfing and reading these days and it seems that Charismatics ignored the conditions set in Corinthians entirely eg. that tongues must be intepreted. They are fond of using verses such as 'forbid not to speak in tongues' by the apostle Paul to support their views, but the conditions are just shoved aside and ignored totally.
As for healing, Charismatics believed in healing of sicknesses, not just the sickness of sin, was given when Jesus died for us on the cross. My arguement is: If healing of sicknesses was already given when the lord died for us, the apostles will not need to go around healing the sick after he died. If healing of sicknesses was already provided by the Lord in one final sacrifice, does he need to anoint Pastors again every week to heal you again? It is like the Lord suddenly changed his mind and decided:" Ah.....that time not enuff....this week I shall send Pastor XXX to heal the sick..." Isn't this strange? -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
Might want to refer to this link:
[b]I will never agree with my gf that u can learn to speak in tongues ... I once said my gf was extreme as she believed she can speak in tongues after hearing a sermon on it.
It is the gift of tongue we're talking about. Obviously you can't learn to acquire a gift. The gift is God-given.
Can someone recommend an authoritative book/classic on Charismatic practices?
When I say classic, I don't mean the books we find in bookstores for laymen. I mean a classic studied by theologians, like Systematic Theology.[/b]
http://cnview.com/on_line_resources/charismatic_movement_is_dangerous.htm -
I got this for stupidissmart. SIS do provide your comments if you want to. I bring your the first 3 of the 6 + 5.
(1) The Inspiration of Scripture
2 Timothy 3:16 says, "All scripture is given by the inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." Inspiration means "God breathed." The Bible is, then, the word of God. In Augustine's famous phrase, "What Scripture says, God says." The Bible is God's self-revelation (not just man's opinion about God, but God's own revelation of Himself) and inspiration is the process by which God has made Himself known by speaking through the Biblical authors. These men spoke (and wrote) as they were "moved [lit. carried along] by the Holy Ghost" (2 Pet. 1:20). So, the Bible is, in a very real sense, the word of God.
(2) The Inerrancy of Scripture
Since the Bible is God's word, and since it reveals a perfect God who cannot err (Deut. 32:4), then it is supremely truthful. Inspiration assumes inerrancy. The interpreter can trust the Bible's historical accuracy, as well as the infallibility of each word. The Bible is the truth. This conviction is indispensible to the interpreter of Scripture. If we approach the Bible with a conviction concerning its inerrancy, we will not presume to attempt to censure or correct it. Neither will the interpreter set Scripture against itself and attempt to discover discrepancies.
(3) The Authority of Scripture
Since the Bible is God's word, it speaks with ultimate and absolute authority. The interpreters task is not to doubt the validity of the claims of Scripture, but to bow in submission to the authority of the Bible. It is the final rule for faith and life. The failure to approach the Bible with a conviction regarding its authority is responsible for interpretive abberrations like the tendency (common to the Charismatics) to make experience the ultimate test of truth and the anomaly (common to the cults) of producing extra-Biblical literature as a necessary supplement to Biblical revelation. The individual who comes to the Bible with a conviction regarding its ultimate authority cannot simply sidestep passages that are personally unpalatable, or that are inconsistent with his particular theological position. The authority of Scripture forces the interpreter to face every verse squarely and to seek to interpret it accurately, regardless of how unpopular or unpleasant it may be. For example, I have heard people attempt to circumvent the New Testament's teaching concerning the role of women in the church. Paul plainly states in 1 Timothy 2:9-15 and I Corinthians 14:34 that the woman is not to occupy a teaching position in the local church. In the final analysis, a person who attempts to explain Paul's teaching away (for whatever reason) by interpreting the verses in terms of modern attitudes, demonstrates by the mere attempt to circumvent such plain language a personal struggle with the authority of Scripture.
...too much typing man.[/b] -
(1) The Inspiration of Scripture
2 Timothy 3:16 says, "All scripture is given by the inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness." Inspiration means "God breathed." The Bible is, then, the word of God. In Augustine's famous phrase, "What Scripture says, God says." The Bible is God's self-revelation (not just man's opinion about God, but God's own revelation of Himself) and inspiration is the process by which God has made Himself known by speaking through the Biblical authors. These men spoke (and wrote) as they were "moved [lit. carried along] by the Holy Ghost" (2 Pet. 1:20). So, the Bible is, in a very real sense, the word of God.(2) The Inerrancy of Scripture
Although u can say u believe the holy spirit is among them, but who can tell ? It is equally probable an agent from satan is among them too when they debate out the content of the scriptures. As a lot of christian believe in an earlier thread, priest is just human beings too, despite the fact tat they have "holy spirit" around them when they teach.
Since the Bible is God's word, and since it reveals a perfect God who cannot err (Deut. 32:4), then it is supremely truthful. Inspiration assumes inerrancy. The interpreter can trust the Bible's historical accuracy, as well as the infallibility of each word. The Bible is the truth. This conviction is indispensible to the interpreter of Scripture. If we approach the Bible with a conviction concerning its inerrancy, we will not presume to attempt to censure or correct it. Neither will the interpreter set Scripture against itself and attempt to discover discrepancies.
My answer to see if the above statement is valid is by practically reading the bible, and if u come accross any single contradictions or clash of teachings, then it just prove the fact it do have errors and therefore, fail to be god inspired. Will u have problem with tis way of assessing the validity of this statement ?
If it is found tat there indeed r errors in the scriptures, then it just means tat the sciptures r man made, and therefore any part of the scripture should be taken with just a pinch of salt. Why believe in a set of teachings written by men 2000 years ago. I am prety sure we r able to judge better for ourselves at tis time now.(3) The Authority of Scripture
I think tat statement in bold should be read to worried99. In this answer I do not see any link to any bible passages... [/b]
Since the Bible is God's word, it speaks with ultimate and absolute authority. The interpreters task is not to doubt the validity of the claims of Scripture, but to bow in submission to the authority of the Bible. It is the final rule for faith and life. The failure to approach the Bible with a conviction regarding its authority is responsible for interpretive abberrations like the tendency (common to the Charismatics) to make experience the ultimate test of truth and the anomaly (common to the cults) of producing extra-Biblical literature as a necessary supplement to Biblical revelation. The individual who comes to the Bible with a conviction regarding its ultimate authority cannot simply sidestep passages that are personally unpalatable, or that are inconsistent with his particular theological position. The authority of Scripture forces the interpreter to face every verse squarely and to seek to interpret it accurately, regardless of how unpopular or unpleasant it may be. For example, I have heard people attempt to circumvent the New Testament's teaching concerning the role of women in the church. Paul plainly states in 1 Timothy 2:9-15 and I Corinthians 14:34 that the woman is not to occupy a teaching position in the local church. In the final analysis, a person who attempts to explain Paul's teaching away (for whatever reason) by interpreting the verses in terms of modern attitudes, demonstrates by the mere attempt to circumvent such plain language a personal struggle with the authority of Scripture. -
Originally posted by stupidissmart:
err...sorry but I dun understand why it should be read to me?
I think tat statement in bold should be read to worried99. In this answer I do not see any link to any bible passages... [/b]
Abt the holy ghost, sorry to sidetrack abit, I believe God talks to us through his own ways. U may not know when/where the Holy ghost wanna speak to u, but I believed it is as to when GOD deems fit. Sorry I cannot express my words well, but then if someone (pastor or what) tells u he is speaking through the holy ghost, then this someone is more likely to be dubious. -
Not only Anglican churches. I saw a wedding photo of a German couple who had their church wedding in a Lutheran church. The Lutherans do display crucifixes in church.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:In some Anglican churches, they have crucifixes. That is, the cross with Jesus on it.
But of course, of all Protestant churches, Anglican has the most similarities with the Catholic church. In UK, they still practise confession and have pictures of Mary.