thank you, mel gibson
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another point to note. not every hebrew actually go visits the ark of the covenant, like visiting the in-laws every weekend,
only the priest go into the holy of holies, and if he even think of worshipping those feathered beings on the ark, God would have already struck him dead.
yea. -
another point to note. not every hebrew actually go visits the ark of the covenant, like visiting the in-laws every weekend
The Hebrews wandered in the desert for 40 years, before the Temple was built. And they brought the ark along when they went to war. So clearly, the exposure was more than you think.
and if he even think of worshipping those feathered beings on the ark
My point was not whether they worshipped those feathered beings, but rather they created a graven image, two actually, of beings in heaven. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
and the ark was placed in a tent. it wasn't just any ol' how anyone can touch and play with it like it was a toy. only the priests were allowed to touch it. God isn't a force with no intelligence. remember? when the ark fell off, someone grabbed it, and died? it wasn't some plain ol box.
[b]another point to note. not every hebrew actually go visits the ark of the covenant, like visiting the in-laws every weekend
The Hebrews wandered in the desert for 40 years, before the Temple was built. And they brought the ark along when they went to war. So clearly, the exposure was more than you think.
and if he even think of worshipping those feathered beings on the ark
My point was not whether they worshipped those feathered beings, but rather they created a graven image, two actually, of beings in heaven.[/b]
and another thing. God told them to make the angels, for watever purpose i have no idea. but that doesn't justify the catholic's doing the same. did God say to make mother mary image and bow down to it? did God say "tell my mum, she'll tell me"?
rather Jesus taught us to pray to the Father, as He is the intercessor, for there is no other intercessor
read my previous post in page one. and justify that -
and the ark was placed in a tent.
What did the Hebrew do in the desert ah? What was their migration pattern like? Did they camp in an area for 5 years then decide to move again?
when the ark fell off, someone grabbed it, and died? it wasn't some plain ol box.
Interesting. Where was it recorded? Just for curiosity sake.
and another thing. God told them to make the angels, for watever purpose i have no idea.
So did God contradict his own commandment? He did admonish His people not to make any graven image of any beings in heaven.
but that doesn't justify the catholic's doing the same. did God say to make mother mary image and bow down to it?
I think it is all in the intention. While Catholics may bow to the Mary image, I don't think they're praying it like praying to God. This whole business of Mary-worshipping is quite tricky. I suggest you understand their [Catholic] theology, their position, their biblical basis before you shoot your mouth off. I don't want you to create a strawman and misled those who read your post.
SingaporeMacross is a Catholic. Maybe he can explain briefly what is this all about.
rather Jesus taught us to pray to the Father, as He is the intercessor, for there is no other intercessor
I think Catholics will agree with this. I'm not sure whether Mary can be considered an intercessor in the same light as Jesus. -
haha.. this thread has become something about catholics not the passion.
I dont think the movie has any other motives then to show christians (anyone who believes in Christ regardless of their denomination) the suffering of Jesus. I dont see how it has the false idea of works for salvation. Please tell me.
And though a few people may think of the passion whenever they hear of Christ, i doubt most chistians will do that. I dont think its fair to say that the movie is bad because of the religion of the makers or because of a few people opinions. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
here it is... but pls read in context..... in the first place, they have already disobeyed God in the way they transported the ark. God had previously commanded people to carry the ark using poles... not put on a cart.
[quote]
when the ark fell off, someone grabbed it, and died? it wasn't some plain ol box.
Interesting. Where was it recorded? Just for curiosity sake.
1 Chronicles 13: 7-10
7 So they carried the ark of God on a new cart from the house of Abinadab, and Uzza and Ahio drove the cart.
8 Then David and all Israel played music before God with all their might, with singing, on harps, on stringed instruments, on tambourines, on cymbals, and with trumpets.
9 And when they came to Chidon's threshing floor, Uzza put out his hand to hold the ark, for the oxen stumbled.
10 Then the anger of the Lord was aroused against Uzza, and He struck him because he put his hand to the ark; and he died there before God.
Purpose of the cherubim?? read below...
and another thing. God told them to make the angels, for watever purpose i have no idea.
So did God contradict his own commandment? He did admonish His people not to make any graven image of any beings in heaven.
Exodus 10: 19-22
19 Make one cherub at one end, and the other cherub at the other end; you shall make the cherubim at the two ends of it of one piece with the mercy seat.
20 And the cherubim shall stretch out their wings above, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and they shall face one another; the faces of the cherubim shall be toward the mercy seat.
21 You shall put the mercy seat on top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the Testimony that I will give you.
22 And there I will meet with you, and I will speak with you from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which are on the ark of the Testimony, about everything which I will give you in commandment to the children of Israel. -
but that doesn't justify the catholic's doing the same. did God say to make mother mary image and bow down to it?
its not that i do not know their theology. thats the whole problem. its their theology, written by man, and not by God.
I think it is all in the intention. While Catholics may bow to the Mary image, I don't think they're praying it like praying to God. This whole business of Mary-worshipping is quite tricky. I suggest you understand their [Catholic] theology, their position, their biblical basis before you shoot your mouth off. I don't want you to create a strawman and misled those who read your post.
and do not assume i do not know what i am talking about. i attended mass nearly 6 years of my life, my aunt is a catholic, who tried to share with me her religion, before i became a christian. who's shooting off his mouth now?
the whole business of mary-worshipping isn't tricky. its wrong. its not even biblical at all, how can it be biblical if it disagrees with the commandments of God, by which we are judged?
if you cannot explain abt the mary worshipping, just say so. point is, you do not know anything about catholics do you, you are either a blind follower, or an unbelieverrather Jesus taught us to pray to the Father, as He is the intercessor, for there is no other intercessor
again i shall quote my aunt, she always defends mary's position as intercessor, cause Jesus obeys her mum. is this teaching biblical? or just another humanized theory that pops up over the decades?
I think Catholics will agree with this. I'm not sure whether Mary can be considered an intercessor in the same light as Jesus.
it seems to contradict the part where Jesus said that who is his mother, or brother? whoever obeys his teachings, are his mother and brothers.
in another words. we, as believers are technically his "brothers" (if we believe and obey), again, this removes a need for another "intercessor" between us and God(Jesus)
you should really read more of the bible. you don't even know whats going on. if u read the bible more. u'll see the difference icemoon. instead of just simply blindly following religion.
i do not blindly follow orders, humans can be leaders, but they can make mistakes too. its always good to check with the bible to see if its biblical.
the catholics' creating the graven image of mary is an abormination, and using the ark as an excuse, isn't much of an excuse. i don't remember God ever telling you to create an image of mary, in fact, most of the catholic practices were not commissioned by peter the apostle, whom you declare as the rock, gate keeper of heaven etc, watever.
and icemoon, you haven't justified this. for your convinience, i shall paste it again -
besides i've attended a catholic gathering. and they obviously are worshipping these idols, despite their talks to the outside world.
for example. i quote a speaker who was talking abt fasting. she said that someone asked her, is it alright if i drank abit of ribena, or milo.. the speaker replied, why don't you ask st *forgot the name* behind the church (refering to the statue)
and another statement she made abt finding our life partner, she said mother mary is the best matchmaker in this world. whats up with that? isn't God the one who plans our lifes? He is the one who made eve for adam? isn't God the one who "matchmakes"?
and yet another statement she made about prayer, she said that we can pray to st joseph, he bao ka liao (meaning he can handle everything)
this are what catholics are saying in their catholic meetings. but to the outside world, christians or non christians, they say stuff like, nah, they pray to God... they only ask mum mary to intercede.. etc. -
stick to topic pls
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Here is a very interesting portion of the Scripture for Icemoon. Read Exodus 25 to Exodus 28. TheLord God of Israel gave very very very very (i can't further emphasise it
) detailed instructions for the Israelites to build the tabernacle, alter, showbread. Right up to the measurement and material of cloths to be used.
Now you may argue that the Roman Catholics are just doing the same now, however, Exodus is of the old testament. Our Lord Jesus had torn down the veil in the temple from top to bottom and we Christians no longer need to go to the temple and the ark of covenent or a priest to have direct communion with God.
Back to the topic on the "Passion", if anyone noticed, the movie was opened in the US on Ash Wednesday,part of the unscriptural holy days of the Roman Catholic Church, after Mel Gibson gave a special presentation of the preview of the 'Passion' to Pope John Paul II.
Now, i am going to be very honest and to declare my stand here. It may sound that i am bashing the Roman Catholics. However, it must be understand that Roman Catholics are NOT Christians, they are not saved. I love my Roman Catholics friends whom i have tried to witness. I hate the Vatican, the Church because they are quite clearly, the Harlot riding on the Beast mentioned in Revelation,decieving so many people in the world.
We can discuss this if someone opens another thread. And prayerfully i can have some support from some other members that i think (never met or spoken to them before, only through readingtheir posts) on the same line of fire as i, namely dumb!dumb! (not so dump after all eh?) and ChinEng. -
lol. i'm dumb. =)
sorry to say.. my motives are not as pure as yours... i've a slight hatred for the vatican population. personal vendetta. plus sad to say.. my grandma is gonna baptise as a catholic this sunday. good news is.. she is suffering from old age mental weakness, can't remember or care whats going on. but she understood when my dad shared with her and she received christ already. now she doesn't care. going to the catholic church is sorta convinient for her.
i'd just LURRRVE to see icemoon here justify what i've heard with my own 2 ears in the catholic meeting. too bad he/she is just shutting up at the wrong time.. so sad..
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One of you open a separate thread leh.
I read the reply by fandango, feel very buay-song, so it is time for an inter-denominational friendly debate.
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
Exposure to the Ark is only granted for the Levites and the High Priest. So actually the Isrealites could not visit like they do for their in Laws.
[b]another point to note. not every hebrew actually go visits the ark of the covenant, like visiting the in-laws every weekend
The Hebrews wandered in the desert for 40 years, before the Temple was built. And they brought the ark along when they went to war. So clearly, the exposure was more than you think.
[/b]
And they(Isrealites) are not that exposed to the Ark afterall....least they will die. -
What to do ... I'm not really acquainted with Vatican dogma.Originally posted by dumbdumb!:i'd just LURRRVE to see icemoon here justify what i've heard with my own 2 ears in the catholic meeting. too bad he/she is just shutting up at the wrong time.. so sad.. 
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Oops. Didn't realise that you've answered it.Originally posted by dumbdumb!:another point to note. not every hebrew actually go visits the ark of the covenant, like visiting the in-laws every weekend,
only the priest go into the holy of holies, and if he even think of worshipping those feathered beings on the ark, God would have already struck him dead.
yea.
Yea....High Priest are very honored, but yet very fragile position. -
so basically, you were doing what you accused me of doing. shooting off your mouth?Originally posted by Icemoon:What to do ... I'm not really acquainted with Vatican dogma.
so why don'y you just say so, waste my time.
well, all i can say is this. in my 6 years, and certain exposure. the catholics are not what they claim to believe or whatsoever. -
Let's not turn this into a Catholic vs Protestant debate.....
I neither saw the show nor plan to see it. I am doing Hellboy this weekend.
Didn't plan to see 'cos
1. I read the book.
2. There is no director's cut
3. There is probably no sequel
4. Nobody died from a laser beam ....
Seriously inspite of the objections some local protestant pastors are dishing via email (seen a couple of 'em). I think some of the objections are more towards Catholic bashing than anything.
At the end of the day, it's a movie. It's an interpretation of what could have happened. Whether the director took the imagery from a Catholic or not may not be as important as the fact that this movie reached more non-Christians than anything else in the last decade (or beyond).
If main stream Protestants are offended by it, go produce another movie just as good. And with that done, you will find the various denominations having odds with the content anyway, not enough tongues, no Holy Spirit etc etc etc.
Years ago when Billy Graham held his rally at the National Stadium there were some churches dishing out pamplets denouncing him. My sister and cousin accepted Christ there.
There is just no pleasing everyone.
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oh i'm not offended by the movie. i love the movie. its really artistic.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Let's not turn this into a Catholic vs Protestant debate.....
I neither saw the show nor plan to see it. I am doing Hellboy this weekend.
Didn't plan to see 'cos
1. I read the book.
2. There is no director's cut
3. There is probably no sequel
4. Nobody died from a laser beam ....
Seriously inspite of the objections some local protestant pastors are dishing via email (seen a couple of 'em). I think some of the objections are more towards Catholic bashing than anything.
At the end of the day, it's a movie. It's an interpretation of what could have happened. Whether the director took the imagery from a Catholic or not may not be as important as the fact that this movie reached more non-Christians than anything else in the last decade (or beyond).
If main stream Protestants are offended by it, go produce another movie just as good. And with that done, you will find the various denominations having odds with the content anyway, not enough tongues, no Holy Spirit etc etc etc.
Years ago when Billy Graham held his rally at the National Stadium there were some churches dishing out pamplets denouncing him. My sister and cousin accepted Christ there.
There is just no pleasing everyone. Didn't plan to see 'cos
1. I read the book.
2. There is no director's cut
3. There is probably no sequel
4. Nobody died from a laser beam ....
YOU! a typical star wars fan! haha the actor for Jesus was struck by lightning, i guess it counts as a laser beam? -
I'm sure there're biblical basis for those Catholic dogma. Better to examine them than to dismiss their dogma as "crap". Or bash them just 'cos they pray to Mary.Originally posted by dumbdumb!:so basically, you were doing what you accused me of doing. shooting off your mouth?
so why don'y you just say so, waste my time.
well, all i can say is this. in my 6 years, and certain exposure. the catholics are not what they claim to believe or whatsoever.
The single incident you mention may not be representative and your aunt may not really understand Catholic theology. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:I'm sure there're biblical basis for those Catholic dogma. Better to examine them than to dismiss their dogma as "crap". Or bash them just 'cos they pray to Mary.
The single incident you mention may not be representative and your aunt may not really understand Catholic theology.
agree....we need to bring out the doctrines and one by one compare them in the light of scriptures before we say much. -
Hmm.....do you know the Catholic doctrines then?Originally posted by NeonTetra:
agree....we need to bring out the doctrines and one by one compare them in the light of scriptures before we say much. -
Fandango. So opening on Ash wednesday makes it a bad movie? And if you are takling about the influence and the sublimal message of works, I dont think so coz Mel Gibson said on national tv in the US( i think its on 60 minutes) that he believe that the only way to heaven is through Christ. And how does it show the false message of works?
And yes, catholics are saved. From what I understand from my bible teachers, anyone who accepts Jesus as their savior at any one time in their life is saved. It doesnt say if you accept Christ and then pray to Mary or any other thing that you will lose your salvation. The Catholics have a few "extra" books in the bible. The rest of it is similar though punctuation might be different. I mention that coz punctuation makes a lot of difference in an indentical statements. And there are many different sects of catholicism, Mel Gibson belongs to a very conservative one called Pius X (I not sure about the exact name) which the catholic church does not recognize. They do not believe in certain doctrines after a certain date. (Again, I'm not really sure, I might do a research on this)
EDIT:
About the movie not having a clear message of salvation. This movie was not made for evangelism. It is more about christians having a visual images of their Lord's sacrifice. Just as the differnt books of the bible were written for differnt purposes, this movie has its own purpose. -
ok, so i receive jesus, and pray to a taoist god, and maybe go attend a satanic black mass. am i saved?Originally posted by Guest009:Fandango. So opening on Ash wednesday makes it a bad movie? And if you are takling about the influence and the sublimal message of works, I dont think so coz Mel Gibson said on national tv in the US( i think its on 60 minutes) that he believe that the only way to heaven is through Christ. And how does it show the false message of works?
And yes, catholics are saved. From what I understand from my bible teachers, anyone who accepts Jesus as their savior at any one time in their life is saved. It doesnt say if you accept Christ and then pray to Mary or any other thing that you will lose your salvation. The Catholics have a few "extra" books in the bible. The rest of it is similar though punctuation might be different. I mention that coz punctuation makes a lot of difference in an indentical statements. And there are many different sects of catholicism, Mel Gibson belongs to a very conservative one called Pius X (I not sure about the exact name) which the catholic church does not recognize. They do not believe in certain doctrines after a certain date. (Again, I'm not really sure, I might do a research on this)
EDIT:
About the movie not having a clear message of salvation. This movie was not made for evangelism. It is more about christians having a visual images of their Lord's sacrifice. Just as the differnt books of the bible were written for differnt purposes, this movie has its own purpose. -
being an ex-Catholic..i do...Originally posted by M©+square:Hmm.....do you know the Catholic doctrines then? -
Great ... then you can reply to fandango's Catholic topic and help educate dumbdumb in the process.Originally posted by NeonTetra:being an ex-Catholic..i do...