Is Religion Still Relevant After Science
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Ok, I do not usually do this.
I suggest those who want to 'debunk' the religion to at least read up the works of Antony Flew, Brand Blanshard, and Michael Scriven. And W.K. Clifford also.
stupidissmart should really read them since they have quite similar ideas to yours.
Apologies if you have read them ... and understood. -
Listed below are a few eye-opening quotations by prominent scientists and thinkers of our time. They are worthy of consideration. We could list many, many more by palaeontologists, geologists, astronomers, chemists, physicists, mathematicians, cosmologists, zoologists, geneticists and physicians: but the sheer volume of quotations would exhaust the reader. Those listed below should suffice to prove our point that the theory of evolution is not as fool-proof as it is cracked up to be, and hundreds of scientists are distancing themselves from it every year. After all, who wants to be associated with a theory if it's wrong? Driving down the wrong highway will never get you to your destination. Now to the quotations. Bear in mind that they are made by prominent scientists and scholars of our day.
"I have little hesitation in saying that a sickly pall now hangs over the big bang theory."
(Sir Fred Hoyle, astronomer, cosmologist, and mathematician, Cambridge University)
"The pathetic thing is that we have scientists who are trying to prove evolution, which no scientist can ever prove."
(Dr Robert Millikan, Nobel Prize winner and eminent evolutionist)
"The theory of evolution suffers from grave defects, which are more and more apparent as time advances. It can no longer square with practical scientific knowledge."
(Dr A Fleishmann, Zoologist, Erlangen University)
"It is good to keep in mind ... that nobody has ever succeeded in producing even one new species by the accumulation of micromutations. Darwin's theory of natural selection has never had any proof, yet it has been universally accepted."
(Prof. R Goldschmidt PhD, DSc Prof. Zoology, University of Calif. in Material Basis of Evolution Yale Univ. Press) -
Originally posted by songs:
You plagiarise or what?
hi guys.. just to contribute my ides on evolution:
http://www.rae.org/apewalk.html
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"The theory of the transmutation of species is a scientific mistake, untrue in its facts, unscientific in its method, and mischievous in its tendency."
(Prof. J Agassiz, of Harvard in Methods of Study in Natural History)
"Evolution is baseless and quite incredible."
(Dr Ambrose Fleming, President, British Assoc. Advancement of Science, in The Unleashing of Evolutionary Thought)
"Overwhelming strong proofs of intelligent and benevolent design lie around us ... The atheistic idea is so nonsensical that I cannot put it into words."
(Lord Kelvin, Vict. Inst., 124, p267)
It is possible (and, given the Flood, probable) that materials which give radiocarbon dates of tens of thousands of radiocarbon years could have true ages of many fewer calendar years."
(Gerald Aardsman, Ph.D., physicist and C-14 dating specialist)
"We have to admit that there is nothing in the geological records that runs contrary to the views of conservative creationists."
(Evolutionist Edmund Ambrose)
"The best physical evidence that the earth is young is the dwindling resource that evolutionists refuse to admit is dwindling ... the magnetic energy in the field of the earth's dipole magnet ... To deny that it is a dwindling resource is phoney science."
(Thomas Barnes Ph.D., physicist)
"No matter how numerous they may be, mutations do not produce any kind of evolution."
(Pierre-Paul Grasse, Evolutionist)
"The likelihood of the formation of life from inanimate matter is one to a number with 40,000 noughts after it ... It is big enough to bury Darwin and the whole theory of evolution ... if the beginnings of life were not random, they must therefore have been the product of purposeful intelligence."
(Sir Fred Hoyle, astronomer, cosmologist and mathematician, Cambridge University)
"It is easy enough to make up stories, of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favoured by natural selection. But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test."
(Luther D Sutherland, Darwin's Enigma, Master Books 1988, p89)
"Is it really credible that random processes could have constructed a reality, the smallest element of which - a functional protein or gene - is complex beyond ... anything produced by the intelligence of man?"
(Molecular biologist Michael Denton, Evolutionist: A Theory in Crisis (London: Burnett Books, 1985) p 342.)
"When I make an incision with my scalpel, I see organs of such intricacy that there simply hasn't been enough time for natural evolutionary processes to have developed them."
(C Everett Koop, former US Surgeon General)
"Modern apes ... seem to have sprung out of nowhere. They have no yesterday, no fossil record. And the true origin of modern humans ... is, if we are to be honest with ourselves, an equally mysterious matter."
(Lyall Watson, Ph.D., Evolutionist)
"Although bacteria are tiny, they display biochemical, structural and behavioural complexities that outstrip scientific description. In keeping with the current microelectronics revolution, it may make more sense to equate their size with sophistication rather than with simplicity ... Without bacteria life on earth could not exist in its present form."
(James A Shipiro, Bacteria as Multicellular Organisms, "Scientific America, Vol.258, No.6 (June 198
)
"Eighty to eighty-five percent of earth's land surface does not have even 3 geological periods appearing in 'correct' consecutive order ... it becomes an overall exercise of gargantuan special pleading and imagination for the evolutionary-uniformitarian paradigm to maintain that there ever were geologic periods."
(John Woodmorappe, geologist)
"That a mindless, purposeless, chance process such as natural selection, acting on the sequels of recombinant DNA or random mutation, most of which are injurious or fatal, could fabricate such complexity and organisation as the vertebrate eye, where each component part must carry out its own distinctive task in a harmoniously functioning optical unit, is inconceivable. The absence of transitional forms between the invertebrates retina and that of the vertebrates poses another difficulty. Here there is a great gulf fixed which remains inviolate with no seeming likelihood of ever being bridged. The total picture speaks of intelligent creative design of an infinitely high order."
(H.S.Hamilton (MD) The Retina of the Eye - An Evolutionary Road Block.)
"My attempts to demonstrate evolution by an experiment carried on for more than 40 years have completely failed."
(N.H.Nilson, famous botanist and evolutionist)
"None of five museum officials could offer a single example of a transitional series of fossilised organisms that would document the transformation of one basically different type to another."
(Luther Sunderland, science researcher)
sorry for the long posts... but what i am trying to show.. is that macro-evolution is not without its doubts. With the list of the number of proponents to the evolution theory.. you can see professors from Harvard, philosophers.. and even archeologists.
if you have cable at home.. turn to the discovery channel.. watch programmes like "the beijing man", the holes in evolution, etc..
the views given from those above and from the programmes i gave.. these are people with proper credentials. thus, do think abt it with an open mind. -
Help! Help! songs is a serial plagiariser!!
http://www.geocities.com/acts_2_38_4_12/evo1_index.html
And please la, say what "they are made by prominent scientists and scholars of our day" ... how come I see Lord Kelvin's names inside?!
Where was Lord Kelvin when Stephen Jay Gould put forward his theory of Punctuated Equilibria? In his grave la, Lord Kelvin died in 1907 for goodness sake! -
to ice-moon: not intentionally.. lol
but from the writing style.. u shld know its not from me. can't write so well.
i take make the "my ideas" part. lets change it to "some info i gathered from the net". hahaa
anyway .. just stated some problems of evolutions.. esp. the missing link parts. anyway.. have a nice weekend. btw icemoon.. u always online ah? answer very fast
cheers -
/me feels stress
was not online since friday. so much has been discussed. as long as there's friendly discussion, i won't be contributing much
enjoy seeking the truth
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it's an IRC commandOriginally posted by panja_v:I have been wanting to ask for the longest time... what is "/me"?
/me indicates an 'action'
try typing /me (some action) in shoutbox -
Christian sources r by its own biase. I have heard of muslim sources or Hindu sources claiming their religion is real and the other fake. Is it possible to believe in all of them ? Wat we need is a neutral 3rd party
Why am i not surprised you'd claim they made it up and highlight your own bias. Believers' writings you say phony, non-believers you say inaccurate. Since until Christianity had spread, no one except Christians would be interested in Jesus. And rule all later (independent) records out of court as they are tainted by association with Christianity. Rest suppressing the rebuttals and amplifying controversy, what do you want to believe?The problem with tis, as I said earlier, is they r too young. Their grandfather isn't born yet, how can they be witness to his being ? Wat they can only gather is from hearsay
The list of governors, theologians, historians, writers, philosophers, satirists were all deluded into marking history for a vacant santa persona. Here's a cherry, that they'd even lie to the emperor knowing the imperial archives at caesar's disposal, and risk having a go at lions, wolves, sword, stone, fire, cross, mobs.. waging their lives on their declaration. That's easier to buy? These testimonies are not about His existence alone, the accounts are tied to the history of the roman empire and jewish past. If you disregard their authenticity, apply the same validation consistently and consider much of classical literature questionable and general Hannibal a myth.
Quoting a Rylands professor of biblical criticism and exegesis at the University of Manchester, "Some writers may toy with the fancy of a Christ-myth but they do not do so on the ground of historical evidence. The historicity of Christ is as axiomatic for an unbiased historian as the historicity of Julius Caesar. It is not historians who propagate the Christ-myth theories."
Oh, i forgot he's biased. An extract of encyclopedia brit concerning the testimony of the many independent secular accounts of Jesus records, "These independent accounts prove that in ancient times even the opponents of Christianity never doubted the historicity of Jesus, which was disputed for the first time and on inadequate grounds by several authors at the end of the 18th, during the 19th, and at the beginning of the 20th centuries."
Finally, show which scholar by paralleled test of neutrality and impartiality delivered against the above sources, has ventured and successfully postulated the non-historicity of Jesus. -
I do not agree on 2, since it is effectively saying faith is necessarily irrational. Anyway your interpretation is putting words into the dictionary definition.
Wat sources do u get for your definition of faith ? I say again, I am not interested in your definition, I am interested in the definition of proper sources.I dunno, but I think I (or the christians here) am not obliged to describe the christian worldview to you
Then why do u want me to give it in the first place ? If u don't I am really wondering tat there really isn't any worldview in the first place...My example of some people not spending time with family was to show that, just 'cos someone doesn't go to church doesn't mean that he/she will spend the time with the family. I'm sure you agree that there are many people who rather spend time in pubs and KTVs, or along Orchard Road, than with their family
I think u like to give example of more funky people than normal people. For the same person, if they r given more time they can do more things they desired to do. Lets talk about u then. If u have more time, wat will u spend it on ? If it is me, I will spend it more with family outings etc. Instead of talking about other people, those reading this website can think wat will u do if u suddenly have more free time than ever ?And since we were discussing about Pascal Wager, if we do a life-evaluation of someone, enumerating the activities for the whole life, don't you think the non-believer can have as many unmeaningful activities compared to the christian? While the christian 'wastes' time going to church and 'wastes' money by offering to the church, I can argue that a non believer 'wastes' time by going to pubs/KTVs and 'wastes' money on beers and peanuts?
Ehhh... christian never go to pub, ktv, drink beer or buy peanuts meh ? Instead of trying to compare to others again, why don't we compare wat will u do. If u r reading tis reply, wat will u do with an extra 10++ % of income ? -
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For many years, creationists (e.g., Gish 1993) have referred to the studies on Australopithecus by evolutionists Charles Oxnard and Lord Sully Zuckerman. These evolutionists, having analyzed postcranial (body) material of Australopithecus, contend that Australopithecus was not bipedal and transitional to man, but walked rather like a chimp.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#morphological_intermediates_ex3
Gish was incorrect in stating that there were no transitional fossil forms, and he has been corrected on this gaff numerous times since he wrote these words. However, Gish's statements nicely delineate the morphological conundrum at hand. Let's review the required evolutionary conclusion. During their evolution, two mammalian middle ear bones (the hammer and anvil, aka malleus and incus) were derived from two reptilian jawbones. Thus there was a major evolutionary transition in which several reptilian jawbones (the quadrate, articular, and angular) were extensively reduced and modified gradually to form the modern mammalian middle ear. At the same time, the dentary bone, a part of the reptilian jaw, was expanded to form the major mammalian lower jawbone. During the course of this change, the bones that form the hinge joint of the jaw changed identity. Importantly, the reptilian jaw joint is formed at the intersection of the quadrate and articular whereas the mammalian jaw joint is formed at the intersection of the squamosal and dentary (see Figure 1.4.1).
How could hearing and jaw articulation be preserved during this transition? As clearly shown from the many transitional fossils that have been found (see Figure 1.4.3), the bones that transfer sound in the reptilian and mammalian ear were in contact with each other throughout the evolution of this transition. In reptiles, the stapes contacts the quadrate, which in turn contacts the articular. In mammals, the stapes contacts the incus, which in turn contacts the malleus (see Figure 1.4.2). Since the quadrate evolved into the incus, and the articular evolved into the malleus, these three bones were in constant contact during this impressive evolutionary change. Furthermore, a functional jaw joint was maintained by redundancy—several of the intermediate fossils have both a reptilian jaw joint (from the quadrate and articular) and a mammalian jaw joint (from the dentary and squamosal). Several late cynodonts and Morganucodon clearly have a double-jointed jaw. In this way, the reptilian-style jaw joint was freed to evolve a new specialized function in the middle ear. It is worthy of note that some modern species of snakes have a double-jointed jaw involving different bones, so such a mechanical arrangement is certainly possible and functional.
Since Figure 1.4.3 was made, several important intermediate fossils have been discovered that fit between Morganucodon and the earliest mammals. These new discoveries include a complete skull of Hadrocodium wui (Luo et al. 2001) and cranial and jaw material from Repenomamus and Gobiconodon (Wang et al. 2001). These new fossil finds clarify exactly when and how the malleus, incus, and angular completely detached from the lower jaw and became solely auditory ear ossicles.
Recall that Gish stated: "There are no transitional fossil forms showing, for instance, three or two jawbones, or two ear bones" (Gish 1978, p. 80). Gish simply does not understand how gradual transitions happen (something he should understand, obviously, if he intends to criticize evolutionary theory). These fossil intermediates illustrate why Gish's statement is a gross mischaracterization of how a transitional form should look. In several of the known intermediates, the bones have overlapping functions, and one bone can be called both an ear bone and a jaw bone; these bones serve two functions. Thus, there is no reason to expect transitional forms with intermediate numbers of jaw bones or ear bones. For example, in Morganucodon, the quadrate (anvil) and the articular (hammer) serve as mammalian-style ear bones and reptilian jaw bones simultaneously. In fact, even in modern reptiles the quadrate and articular serve to transmit sound to the stapes and the inner ear (see Figure 1.4.2). The relevant transition, then, is a process where the ear bones, initially located in the lower jaw, become specialized in function by eventually detaching from the lower jaw and moving closer to the inner ear.
Refer to website for the figures -
How about this one
Primarily due to intense medical interest, humans are one of the best characterized species and many developmental anomalies are known. There are several human atavisms that reflect our common genetic heritage with other mammals. One of the most striking is the existence of the rare "true human tail" (also variously known as "coccygeal process," "coccygeal projection," "caudal appendage," and "vestigial tail"). More than 100 cases of human tails have been reported in the medical literature. Less than one third of the well-documented cases are what are medically known as "pseudo-tails" (Dao and Netsky 1984; Dubrow et al. 198. Pseudo-tails are not true tails; they are simply lesions of various types coincidentally found in the caudal region of newborns, often associated with the spinal column, coccyx, and various malformations.
In contrast, the true atavistic tail of humans results from incomplete regression of the most distal end of the normal embryonic tail found in the developing human fetus (see Figure 2.4.1 and the discussion below on the development of the normal human embryonic tail; Belzberg et al. 1991; Dao and Netsky 1984; Grange et al. 2001; Keith 1921). Though formally a malformation, the true human tail is usually benign in nature (Dubrow et al. 1988; Spiegelmann et al. 1985). The true human tail is characterized by a complex arrangement of adipose and connective tissue, central bundles of longitudinally arranged striated muscle in the core, blood vessels, nerve fibres, nerve ganglion cells, and specialized pressure sensing nerve organs (Vater-Pacini corpuscles). It is covered by normal skin, replete with hair follicles, sweat glands, and sebaceous glands (Dao and Netsky 1984; Dubrow et al. 1988; Spiegelmann et al. 1985). True human tails range in length from about one inch to over 5 inches long (on a newborn baby), and they can move via voluntary striped muscle contractions in response to various emotional states (Baruchin et al. 1983; Dao and Netsky 1984; Harrison 1901; Keith 1921; Lundberg et al. 1962).
Although human tails usually lack skeletal structures (some medical articles have claimed that true tails never have vertebrae), several human tails have also been found with cartilage and up to five, well-developed, articulating vertebrae (see Figure 2.2.2; Bar-Maor et al. 1980; Dao and Netsky 1984; Fara 1977; Sugumata et al. 198. However, caudal vertebrae are not a necessary component of mammalian tails. Contrary to what is frequently reported in the medical literature, there is at least one known example of a primate tail that lacks vertebrae, as found in the rudimentary two-inch-long tail of Macaca sylvanus (the "Barbary ape") (Hill 1974, p. 616; Hooten 1947, p. 23).
True human tails are rarely inherited, though several familial cases are known (Dao and Netsky 1984; Ikpeze and Onuigbo 1999; Touraine 1955). In one case the tail has been inherited through at least three generations of females (Standfast 1992).
As with other atavistic structures, human tails are most likely the result of either a somatic mutation, a germline mutation, or an environmental influence that reactivates an underlying developmental pathway which has been retained, if only partially, in the human genome (Dao and Netsky 1984; Hall 1984; Hall 1995). In fact, the genes that control the development of tails in mice and other vertebrates have been identified (the Wnt-3a and Cdx1 genes; Greco et al. 1996; Prinos et al. 2001; Schubert et al. 2001; Shum et al. 1999; Takada et al. 1994). As predicted by common descent from the atavistic evidence, these tail genes have also been discovered in the human genome (Katoh 2002; Roelink et al. 1993). As discussed below in detail, the development of the normal human tail in the early embryo has been investigated extensively, and apoptosis (programmed cell death) plays a significant role in removing the tail of a human embryo after it has formed. It is now known that down-regulation of the Wnt-3a gene induces apoptosis of tail cells during mouse development (Greco et al. 1996; Shum et al. 1999; Takada et al. 1994), and similar effects are observed in humans (Chan et al. 2002). Additionally, researchers have identified a mutant mouse that does not develop a tail, and this phenotype is due to a regulatory mutation that decreases the Wnt-3a gene dosage (Greco et al. 1996; Gruneberg and Wickramaratne 1974; Heston 1951). Thus, current evidence indicates that the genetic cause of tail loss in the evolution of apes was likely a simple regulatory mutation(s) that slightly decreased Wnt-3a gene dosage. Conversely, a mutation or environmental factor that increased dosage of the Wnt-3a gene would reduce apoptosis of the human tail during development and would result in its retention, as an atavism, in a newborn.
Criticisms:
The existence of true human tails is unfortunately quite shocking for many religiously motivated anti-evolutionists, such as Duane Gish, who has written an often-quoted article entitled "Evolution and the human tail" (Gish 1983; see also Menton 1994; ReMine 1982). Solely based on the particulars of a single case study (Ledley 1982), these authors have erroneously concluded that atavistic human tails are "nothing more than anomalous malformations not traceable to any imaginary ancestral state" (Gish 1983). However, their arguments are clearly directed against pseudo-tails, not true tails. Gish claims these structures are not true tails for several reasons: (1) they lack vertebrae, (2) they are not inherited, and (3) the resemblance to tails is "highly superficial" and simply an "anomalous malformation." Menton further claims that (4) all true tails have muscles and can move, whereas human tails cannot. Each of these arguments are factually false, as explained above and as well-documented in the medical literature. Vertebrae and cartilage have occasionally been found in human tails. However, contrary to the claims of Gish, Menton, and ReMine, vertebrae are not a requirement for tails. M. sylvanus is a prime example of a primate whose fleshy tail lacks vertebrae (Hill 1974, p. 616; Hooten 1947, p. 23). Several cases are known where human tails have been inherited. Furthermore, we now know the genes responsible for the development of tails in mammals, and all humans have them. Inheritance of the tail structure per se is unnecessary since the developmental system has been inherited but is normally inactivated in humans. The "resemblance" to non-human tails is far from superficial, since all true human tails are complex structures composed of symmetrical layers of voluntary muscle, blood vessels, specialized nerves and sensing organs, and they can indeed move and contract.
For the skeptical reader, probably the best evidence that these structures are true tails is visual inspection. Photographic images of a newborn's atavistic tail can be found at the University of Iowa's Virtual Hospital site, complete with the voluntary contractory movement of the tail documented. -
There is a website named
29+ evidence for MAcroevolution
If u really wanna believe in only micro and no macro evolution, u should really read this
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/ -
U wanna give quotes ?
Okie, here goes
http://freethought.freeservers.com/reason/quotes.html
BTW, the quotes u gave me are mostly of people who DO NOT believe in EVOLUTION, not even MICRO evolution. So I guess they have a stand different from yours.
Albert Einstein
Einstein often used the word "God" as a metaphor for nature. An often repeated Einstein quote is "God does not play dice with the universe." However, Einstein did not believe in a conscious god. Here is Einstein in his own words:
"I cannot accept any concept of God based on the fear of life or the fear of death or blind faith. I cannot prove to you that there is no personal God, but if I were to speak of him I would be a liar."
"I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."
"The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted [italics his], in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am convinced that such behavior on the part of representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress. In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal God, that is, give up that source of fear and hope which in the past placed such vast power in the hands of priests. In their labors they will have to avail themselves of those forces which are capable of cultivating the Good, the True, and the Beautiful in humanity itself. This is, to be sure, a more difficult but an incomparably more worthy task..."
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Robert Ingersoll
"A believer is a bird in a cage. A freethinker is an eagle parting the clouds with tireless wing."
"The star that shines above the dawn, the herald of the day, is Science, not superstition; Reason, not religion."
"When I became convinced that the Universe is natural - that all the ghosts and gods are myths, there entered into my brain, into my soul, into every drop of my blood, the sense, the feeling, of the joy of freedom. The walls of my prison crumbled and fell, the dungeon was flooded with light and all the bolts, and bars, and manacles became dust."
"Infidels in all ages have battled for the rights of man, and have at all times been the fearless advocates of liberty and justice."
"My objection to Christianity is that it is infinitely cruel, infinitely selfish, and, I might add, infinitely absurd."
"This crime called blasphemy was invented by priests for the purpose of defending doctrines not able to take care of themselves."
"Hands that help are far better than lips that pray."
"The notion that faith in Christ is to be rewarded by an eternity of bliss, while a dependence upon reason, observation, and experience merits everlasting pain, is too absurd for refutation, and can be relieved only by that unhappy mixture of insanity and ignorance called 'faith'."
"If a man would follow today, the teachings of the Old Testament, he would be a criminal. If he would follow strictly, the teachings of the new, he would be insane."
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Bertrand Russell
"What makes a free thinker is not his beliefs, but the way in which he holds them. If he holds them because his elders told him they were true when he was young, or if he holds them because if he did not he would be unhappy, his thought is not free; but if he holds them because, after careful thought, he finds a balance of evidence in their favor, then his thought is free, however odd his conclusions may seem."
"Religion prevents our children from having a rational education; religion prevents us from removing the fundamental causes of war; religion prevents us from teaching the ethic of scientific cooperation in place of the old fierce doctrines of sin and punishment. It is possible that mankind is on the threshold of a golden age; but, if so, it will be necessary first to slay the dragon that guards the door, and this dragon is religion."
"The Christian religion, as organized in its churches, has been and still is, the principal enemy of moral progress in the world"
"Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do."
"If you think your belief is based upon reason, you will support it by argument rather than by persecution, and will abandon it if the argument goes against you. But if your belief is based upon faith, you will realize that argument is useless, and will therefore resort to force either in the form of persecution or by stunting or distorting the minds of the young in what is called 'education'."
"Religion is something left over from the infancy of our intelligence, it will fade away as we adopt reason and science as our guidelines."
"The splendour of human life, I feel sure, is greater to those who are not dazzled by the divine radiance."
"We may define "faith" as the firm belief in something for which there is no evidence. Where there is evidence, no one speaks of "faith." We do not speak of faith that two and two are four or that the earth is round. We only speak of faith when we wish to substitute emotion for evidence. The substitution of emotion for evidence is apt to lead to strife, since different groups, substitute different emotions."
"There is something feeble and a little contemptible about a man who cannot face the perils of life without the help of comfortable myths. Almost inevitably some part of him is aware that they are myths and that he believes them only because they are comforting. But he dare not face this thought! Moreover, since he is aware, however dimly, that his opinions are not real, he becomes furious when they are disputed."
"I am as firmly convinced that religions do harm as I am that they are untrue."
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Thomas Jefferson
"Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blindfolded fear. Do not be frightened from this inquiry by any fear of its consequences.... If it end in a belief that there is no god, you will find incitements to virtue in the comfort and pleasantness you feel in its exercise and in the love of others it will procure for you."
"I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology."
"The Christian god is a three headed monster, cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites."
"And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva, in the brain of Jupiter."
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
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Actually most of them are really worth reading !
Thomas Paine
"Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by attaching it to this filthy book [the Bible]."
"As to the book called the Bible, it is blasphemy to call it the Word of God. It is a book of lies and contradictions and a history of bad times and bad men."
"Accustom a people to believe that priests and clergy can forgive sins...and you will have sins in abundance."
"The Christian church has set up a religion of pomp and revenue in pretended imitation of a person [Jesus] who lived a life of poverty."
"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the Word of God. It is a history of wickedness, that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my own part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel."
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Voltaire
"Every sensible man, every honorable man, must hold the Christian sect in horror."
"Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd and bloody religion that has ever infected the world."
"Nothing can be more contrary to religion and the clergy than reason and common sense."
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Mark Twain
"The Bible is a mass of fables and traditions, mere mythology."
"[The Bible] is full of interest. It has noble poetry in it; and some clever fables; and some blood-drenched history; and some good morals; and a wealth of obscenity; and upwards of a thousand lies."
"It is most difficult to understand the disposition of the Bible God, it is such a confusion of contradictions; of watery instabilities and iron firmness; of goody-goody abstract morals made out of words, and concreted hell-born ones made out of acts; of fleeting kindness repented of in permanent malignities."
"There is one notable thing about our Christianity: bad, bloody, merciless, money-grabbing and predatory as it is - in our country particularly, and in all other Christian countries in a somewhat modified degree - it is still a hundred times better than the Christianity of the Bible, with its prodigious crime- the invention of Hell. Measured by our Christianity of today, bad as it is, hypocritical as it is, empty and hollow as it is, neither the Deity nor His Son is a Christian, nor qualified for that moderately high place. Ours is a terrible religion. The fleets of the world could swim in spacious comfort in the innocent blood it has spilt."
"It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bothers me, it's the parts that I do understand."
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Richard Dawkins
"Out of all of the sects in the world, we notice an uncanny coincidence: the overwhelming majority just happen to choose the one that their parents belong to. Not the sect that has the best evidence in its favour, the best miracles, the best moral code, the best cathedral, the best stained glass, the best music: when it comes to choosing from the smorgasbord of available religions, their potential virtues seem to count for nothing, compared to the matter of heredity. This is an unmistakable fact; nobody could seriously deny it. Yet people with full knowledge of the arbitrary nature of this heredity, somehow manage to go on believing in their religion, often with such fanaticism that they are prepared to murder people who follow a different one."
"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence."
"Blind faith can justify anything. In a man believes in a different god, or even if he uses a different ritual for worshipping the same god, blind faith can decree that he should die - on the cross, at the stake, skewered on a Crusader's sword, shot in a Beirut street, or blown up in a bar in Belfast. Memes for blind faith have their own ruthless ways of propagating themselves. This is true of patriotic and political as well as religious blind faith."
"Faith is powerful enough to immunize people against all appeals to pity, to forgiveness, to decent human feelings. It even immunizes them against fear, if they honestly believe that a martyr's death will send them straight to heaven. What a weapon! Religious faith deserves a chapter to itself in the annals of war technology, on an even footing with the longbow, the warhorse, the tank, and the hydrogen bomb."
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Miscellaneous
"Religion is all bunk." - Thomas Edison
"Religion convinced the world that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do. And there's 10 things he doesn't want you to do or else you'll go to a burning place with a lake of fire until the end of eternity. But he loves you! ...And he needs money! He's all powerful, but he can't handle money!" - George Carlin
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived." - Isaac Asimov
"The theist and the scientist are rival interpreters of nature. The one retreats as the other advances." - Joseph McCabe
"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion." - Carl Sagan
"The alleged short-cut to knowledge, which is faith, is only a short circuit destroying the mind." - Ayn Rand
"It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence." - William Kingdon Clifford
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." - Benjamin Franklin
"All thinking men are atheists." - Ernest Hemingway
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison
"I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute." - John F. Kennedy
"Why has a religious turn of mind always a tendency to narrow and harden the heart?" - Robert Burns
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg
"The Bible is one of the most genocidal books in history." - Noam Chomsky
"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword." - Jesus, Matthew 10:34
"Whenever morality is based on theology, whenever right is made dependent on divine authority, the most immoral, unjust, infamous things can be justified and established." - Ludwig Feuerbach
"We owe it to ourselves as respectable human beings, as thinking human beings, to do what we can to make humanity more rational...Humanists recognize that it is only when people feel free to think for themselves, using reason as their guide, that they are best capable of developing values that succeed in satisfying human needs and serving human interests." - Isaac Asimov
"The time appears to me to have come when it is the duty of all to make their dissent from religion known." - John Stuart Mill -
[mod edit: irrelevant content]
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the reason is to have people to test out their suppose bible knowledge. I will post the answer later. Just try it out for fun sake
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Why am i not surprised you'd claim they made it up and highlight your own bias. Believers' writings you say phony, non-believers you say inaccurate. Since until Christianity had spread, no one except Christians would be interested in Jesus. And rule all later (independent) records out of court as they are tainted by association with Christianity. Rest suppressing the rebuttals and amplifying controversy, what do you want to believe?
I didn't say non christian sources r phoney without giving a valid reason.
Christian sources ? There r a lot of muslim sources and buddhist sources and many other religion sources tat say they can be a witness for the proving of their religion.
Since christianity spread, it is not just the interest of christians, but for the rest of the world. U really no one will care wat happened in a big religion group like christians ?
BTW most of your "credible accounts" does not follow the bible closely. How r u going to explain tat ?
Anyway u have not answer me on something like "why isn't anyone hearing anything about wat happend to the dead tat become the living " of the earthquake tat torn a temple or any other miracles tat were performed ?The list of governors, theologians, historians, writers, philosophers, satirists were all deluded into marking history for a vacant santa persona. Here's a cherry, that they'd even lie to the emperor knowing the imperial archives at caesar's disposal, and risk having a go at lions, wolves, sword, stone, fire, cross, mobs.. waging their lives on their declaration. That's easier to buy? These testimonies are not about His existence alone, the accounts are tied to the history of the roman empire and jewish past. If you disregard their authenticity, apply the same validation consistently and consider much of classical literature questionable and general Hannibal a myth
These people may be "great" but it has not answer me why do u quote report from people tat are never born when Jesus had gone ? They can only at best hear from hearsay isn't it ?
U can find me 100 "extracts" and I can do tat to u too. Instead of trying to find quotes or extracts or comments, can u find me some proof ? -
stupidissmart, you do really take effort in surfing for answers to put down Christianity. I am convinced that you disapprove of Christianity. I shan't try you to convince you otherwise.
I do hope you keep to the topic and address issue of relevancy of religion as a whole.
Faith is a matter of belief. If faith in something must be proven, then it is not faith. You love something because you want to, not because they have proven worthy of your love.
Why have faith in something not proven? It has made a difference in my life. It has transformed me in the way I deal with problems and people. It has given me strength to walk through life. These are enough for me to keep my faith. -
this is one of the songs my church sang last week. as i sing....my heart weeps. So often we argue and debate over issues of faith when it is clear that nothing can be fully explained or known. The author of this song is not ashame to be called His child simply because many things 'he cannot tell'...all he knows is about a Saviour who loves and gave His life up for him.
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I cannot tell how he whom angels worship
should stoop to love the peoples of the earth,
or why as shepherd he should seek the wanderer
with his mysterious promise of new birth.
But this I know, that he was born of Mary,
when Bethlehem's manger was his only home,
and that he lived at Nazareth and labored,
and so the Savior, Savior of the world, is come.
I cannot tell how silently he suffered,
as with his peace he graced this place of tears,
or how his heart upon the cross was broken,
the crown of pain to three and thirty years.
But this I know, he heals the broken-hearted,
and stays our sin, and calms our lurking fear,
and lifts the burden from the heavy laden,
for yet the Savior, Savior of the world, is here.
I cannot tell how he will win the nations,
how he will claim his earthly heritage,
how satisfy the needs and aspirations
of east and west, of sinner and of sage.
But this I know, all flesh shall see his glory,
and he shall reap the harvest he has sown,
and some glad day his sun shall shine in splendor
when he the Savior, Savior of the world, is known.
I cannot tell how all the lands shall worship,
when, at his bidding, every storm is stilled,
or who can say how great the jubilation
when every heart with perfect love is filled.
But this I know, the skies will thrill with rapture,
and myriad, myriad human voices sing,
and earth to heaven, and heaven to earth, will answer:
'At last the Savior, Savior of the world, is King!'
# to hear how this hymn sounds like
CLICK HERE -
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In the end it's still about free will and it's a choice to be made. No amount of intellectual discourse will suffice if the doors are shut close.
But hey, taking the red pill is no joking matter to be decided on by the flip of a hat.