Catholics and Protestants
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then pray to who?Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:You want to kneel also can, don't want to kneel also can. It's the prayer that's more important. If you kneel in front of a statue, it does not mean that you are praying to the statue. You are simply using the statue to help you concentrate in your prayers. -
For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time.
[ 1 Timothy 2:4-6]
why pray to saints when we can come to God directly? why go thru another so called Mediatrix when the Bible clearly states that the ONE AND ONLY mediator and advocate between God and us is Jesus Christ? why add more hurdles to the track when most of them have been removed? why deprive men from coming to God??? -
i can't agree more. I always wondered why the Catholics have to pray through saints when they can pray to God direct. To me, isn't it more impt to have a close relationship to God rather than to have other "barriers" in between? what if the msg is passed on wrongly..Originally posted by NeonTetra:For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time.
[ 1 Timothy 2:4-6]
why pray to saints when we can come to God directly? why go thru another so called Mediatrix when the Bible clearly states that the ONE AND ONLY mediator and advocate between God and us is Jesus Christ? why add more hurdles to the track when most of them have been removed? why deprive men from coming to God???
my catholic fren told me that praying thru something or someone is more effective but till today, i dun see how it can be more effective when u communicate not directly with God.
and at the end of the day, to me, it's still like praying TO the saint rather than praying to God. even though they say that they are praying THRU the saint or smth... but i mean.. honestly, when u pray TO God and if you pray thru the saint, the words and things u say would be different rite.. coz you would address God differently etc wat. -
if really need to pray thru someone..then that person must be Jesus Christ, the Mediator. Remember when He died on the cross, the temple curtain of the Jewish temple was torn into two from top to bottom..that represents the open up of the way to approach God when Christ came to pay the penalty for our sins. We can come boldly before God's throne simply because He died for us.Originally posted by extraordinary:i can't agree more. I always wondered why the Catholics have to pray through saints when they can pray to God direct. To me, isn't it more impt to have a close relationship to God rather than to have other "barriers" in between? what if the msg is passed on wrongly..
my catholic fren told me that praying thru something or someone is more effective but till today, i dun see how it can be more effective when u communicate not directly with God.
and at the end of the day, to me, it's still like praying TO the saint rather than praying to God. even though they say that they are praying THRU the saint or smth... but i mean.. honestly, when u pray TO God and if you pray thru the saint, the words and things u say would be different rite.. coz you would address God differently etc wat. -
if really need to pray thru someone..then that person must be Jesus Christ, the Mediator. Remember when He died on the cross, the temple curtain of the Jewish temple was torn into two from top to bottom..that represents the open up of the way to approach God when Christ came to pay the penalty for our sins. We can come boldly before God's throne simply because He died for us.
spot on.[/b][/quote] -
You can pray to who you want. It's not for others to dictate.Originally posted by ventin:then pray to who? -
Dear friends,Originally posted by NeonTetra:For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men--the testimony given in its proper time.
[ 1 Timothy 2:4-6]
why pray to saints when we can come to God directly? why go thru another so called Mediatrix when the Bible clearly states that the ONE AND ONLY mediator and advocate between God and us is Jesus Christ? why add more hurdles to the track when most of them have been removed? why deprive men from coming to God???
Asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesites) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).
The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator. -
Dear friends,Originally posted by extraordinary:i can't agree more. I always wondered why the Catholics have to pray through saints when they can pray to God direct. To me, isn't it more impt to have a close relationship to God rather than to have other "barriers" in between? what if the msg is passed on wrongly..
my catholic fren told me that praying thru something or someone is more effective but till today, i dun see how it can be more effective when u communicate not directly with God.
and at the end of the day, to me, it's still like praying TO the saint rather than praying to God. even though they say that they are praying THRU the saint or smth... but i mean.. honestly, when u pray TO God and if you pray thru the saint, the words and things u say would be different rite.. coz you would address God differently etc wat.
You ask, "Why not pray directly to Jesus?" Of course you should pray to Jesus! But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. You also ask why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If we can go straight to Jesus proves that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it also proves that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.
Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we see, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).
Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth. -
Interesting exchange between the Protestants (Neon, Fandango, Ventin, Extraordinary) and the Catholics (SingaporeMacross, Natasha, Chelle2009). I sense there are many assumptions behind the arguments and counter-arguments presented. I have a few honest questions here.
1. Where are the Saints and Prophets today? If they can hear our prayers, obviously they're in ... heaven right? Can the transfiguration show that at least for dead prophets, some of their spirits are in heaven? If they're in heaven, are they judged like everyone else during Judgment Day? I can think of three possible Protestant positions regarding the intercession from the Saints. Which is the correct one?
1. Saints cannot even hear you.
2. Saints can hear you, but they're unnecessary.
3. Saints can hear you, but such practice is explicitly forbidden/condemned in Scripture.
I wonder how come no-one asks the angels or even the seraphims and cherubims for help? While Saints may nor may not be in heaven able to hear us, surely angels like Michael and Gabriel have access to God?
2. While we see so many disagreement in theological issues, surely there're issues agreed unanimously by Catholics and Protestants? I'll think the doctrine of Trinity is one, since nobody rejects the Creeds from the early church regarding the doctrine of Trinity? I quote the Westminister Confession of Faith on the Holy Trinity:
"In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternall begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son."
Don't scare me leh, if this one also cannot agree, then jialat liao .. haha
3. Christ is the mediator between God and man. I hope no-one disagrees with this. So my question is, is it a technical error, or even blasphemy
, to pray to Christ DIRECTLY instead to the Heavenly Father? For example, you start the prayer WITH "Dear Jesus Christ ..." and end WITHOUT the "in Jesus name we pray". And how abou the Holy Ghost? You start prayer with "Dear Holy Spirit" and end without "in Jesus name we pray".
So confusing. If we can pray to Christ directly, then (pardon me) what's the point of even having the one and only mediator Jesus Christ? No gateway! No proxy server! Direct connection!
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Ah... but Michael the archangel is called Saint Michael, angel Raphael is called Saint Raphael, and angel Gabriel, Saint Gabriel!Originally posted by Icemoon:I wonder how come no-one asks the angels or even the seraphims and cherubims for help? While Saints may nor may not be in heaven able to hear us, surely angels like Michael and Gabriel have access to God?
St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in our day of battle; protect us against the deceit and wickedness of the devil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray. And you, O prince of the heavenly host, by the power of God banish into hell Satan and all of the evil spirits who roam through the world seeking the ruin of souls. Amen.3. Christ is the mediator between God and man. I hope no-one disagrees with this. So my question is, is it a technical error, or even blasphemy
Remember, Jesus is God. The holy trinity is one, yet it is three. This is the great mystery of Christianity. , to pray to Christ DIRECTLY instead to the Heavenly Father? For example, you start the prayer WITH "Dear Jesus Christ ..." and end WITHOUT the "in Jesus name we pray". And how abou the Holy Ghost? You start prayer with "Dear Holy Spirit" and end without "in Jesus name we pray".
So confusing. If we can pray to Christ directly, then (pardon me) what's the point of even having the one and only mediator Jesus Christ? No gateway! No proxy server! Direct connection!