Meaningful conversation about atheism and faith
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Hi all. I'm an atheist.
I'm looking to have some friendly chat with religious Singaporeans on how they view free-thinkers and atheists in Singapore? I'm not looking to start a flame-war or anything ok? Just reasonable and friendly discussions.
Some background on myself - currently 29 yrs old. Attended mission schools during my primary and secondary days, even took Bible Knowledge as part of Olevels. But I was never a believer. I would just like to understand how you can believe that God exists? -
my god exists in my heart.
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Could you elaborate a little on how you became a christian? What convinced you that God exists in your heart?
Help this poor atheist to understand. -
One can never fully understand the existence of God. For me, it's a matter of faith.
I, too, was from a missionary school. Thus, I had the opportunity to discover what Christianity about. At the time I took a step to accept Christ in my life, I really didn't think too much about the 'facts' or proof of His existence. I just the step of faith that He does (what can one stand to lose, if it was true?)
Over the years, I have experienced changes in my life and things that happened which affirmed my faith. There were times that situations tested this faith, but I've never regret putting my trust in Him. When my first relationship failed, I was very down; to the point that I gave up hope on life. But I was reminded how He continued to pour out his blessings on me even though when I stopped obeying Him.
God can only show Himself if you start to look for Him. Seek and you shall find
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I think my problem is that I just can't understand how you take that leap of faith. How to transform from not-believing to believing?
In my view, asking me to have faith that God exists is no different from asking me to have faith that Unicorns exist or that the Tooth Fairy exists. I just can't summon up that faith and I'm curious as to how christians are able to do so.
I don't mean to offend anybody with the above statements, it's just my personal opinion ok? -
No offence taken.
I'm not sure how to tell you how to believe.
But maybe you just have to continue to ask questions about Him.
Do you believe that there's some purpose to your time on earth? Or was the human race a product of chances and accidents?
p.s. Ultimately, it's a personal choice to believe or not. -
hey pal, nice to meet u.
just to share a verse with you and hope to hear more from you
"And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him." (Hebrew 11:6)
Just like sillyme, i cannot show you a litmus-test for the existence of God but look around you...look at your reflection in the mirror...at all creations...these are silent witnesses of a God who is also the Creator of all things. -
Yes faith is the key. It is difficult to define faith except that it is intangible. How do i know when to put faith in someone? I do not know. When you trust someone, do you know whether you made the right decision until you really do?
If your friend goes to disneyland and tells you how fun it is, how exciting it is but you have never gone there before, would you really know how FUN and EXCITING it is?
So now, christians can tell you how real Jesus is. We can tell you all the bible verses we know. But, if you do really put your faith in Jesus, how can you then say it is not real?
Lets be fair, Jesus can be real or Jesus can be fake. I believe Jesus is real. Why? I cant give you concrete proof. But can you give concrete proof that Jesus do not? We all know its logical that it is not necessary that just because something cannot be seen, cannot be heard or cannot be felt physically, it is not real.
Let me lastly ask you a question, do you believe we humans were created? If yes, which theory do you support about creation i.e. the biblical, evolution etc.... -
Unfortunately nobody can be told who or what God is, you'll just have to find out for yourself...
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hm.. sounds familiar..Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Unfortunately nobody can be told who or what God is, you'll just have to find out for yourself... -
Yes, you have a choice red_ryder... It is a choice based on what you can barely grasp with the rational mind. It keeps you awake at night, like a splinter in your mind. You are here because you know something, what you know you can't explain, and what what you can't explain you can't see. Unfortunately it cannot be revealed to you by any other then the one who can remove these chains that hold you down to blind you from the obvious truth.
The truth that you, like all of us, are born into bondage. Slaves in a prision we cannot see, hear, smell, taste or touch. But now you have a choice. It was the pursit of this uncompletness which you cannot explain that has led you here. Everything begins with choice, and unfortunately, it is impossible to find out about the truth until you have made the choice. So now.
You take the blue pill, the story ends, and you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe, blissfully unaware, but incomplete.
You take the red pill, you stay here, and we'll show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Remember, we are just offering you the truth, no more, no less. -
We can know God via these ways
1. The written Word of God -The Bible
2. Creations around us
3. The Person and works of Jesus Christ - God in flesh
4. Signs and wonders from God
5. Christian Faith & Witness
6. Your personal way -
wah seh. a matrix guru.Originally posted by SingaporeTyrannosaur:Yes, you have a choice red_ryder... It is a choice based on what you can barely grasp with the rational mind. It keeps you awake at night, like a splinter in your mind. You are here because you know something, what you know you can't explain, and what what you can't explain you can't see. Unfortunately it cannot be revealed to you by any other then the one who can remove these chains that hold you down to blind you from the obvious truth.
The truth that you, like all of us, are born into bondage. Slaves in a prision we cannot see, hear, smell, taste or touch. But now you have a choice. It was the pursit of this uncompletness which you cannot explain that has led you here. Everything begins with choice, and unfortunately, it is impossible to find out about the truth until you have made the choice. So now.
You take the blue pill, the story ends, and you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe, blissfully unaware, but incomplete.
You take the red pill, you stay here, and we'll show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.
Remember, we are just offering you the truth, no more, no less. -
we welcome more discussions on this.
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It's great to see so many replies...let me try to answer.
1. In my view, the purpose in life is different for everybody and it is up to the individual to find meaning in his own life.
2. I don't believe that humans were created. I believe that we evolved from the same ancestor as the other primates and apes. And to answer an earlier post, evolution is not a series of chance and accidents. Sure it relies on chance mutation, but only those that are useful for the creature to adapt to its environment are kept. A ton of other non-useful chance mutations are useless and will not be propagated to future generations.
3. Of course I don't have concrete proof that God is false. Neither is there concrete proof that God is real. Hence, I choose not to believe in a god until I am convinced of one. -
belief in something that cannot be proven.. is called Faith...
oh well... one mathematician said that belief in God is a gamble where there are only winners..
give God your soul... and if He exists, the rewards for something finite like your soul is infinite
if He doesn't exist, there is no soul to give anyway..
that aside...
but i know He does.. and it is enriching that He is around, while we are struggling for meaning in our lives, even if we do not succeed, ours is the Kingdom of God..
with that knowledge, fear is diminished.. -
Point 1 agreed. God made everyone differently but ultimately God has a plan for everyone whether to know Him or not.Originally posted by red_ryder:It's great to see so many replies...let me try to answer.
1. In my view, the purpose in life is different for everybody and it is up to the individual to find meaning in his own life.
2. I don't believe that humans were created. I believe that we evolved from the same ancestor as the other primates and apes. And to answer an earlier post, evolution is not a series of chance and accidents. Sure it relies on chance mutation, but only those that are useful for the creature to adapt to its environment are kept. A ton of other non-useful chance mutations are useless and will not be propagated to future generations.
Point 2. Evolution has always been a theory, it has never been scientifically proven officially (thats a mouthful or words.). My personal belief is that, yes there is mutation. Like many many breeds of dogs and wolves and foxes mutated from 1 a single species of dog over the years. (Interestingly, Christians will hold to the belief that Earth is only 4000 years old, not 10 or 100 million or billion years.)
When i watch those apes and primates documentaries on discovery channel, i do wonder, if man had evloved from apes and primates over the years, why do we still have apes and primates today? Should all of them became intelligent and became human?
If you study a little more about the beginning of this theory of Evolution, Charles Darwin actually based it on a rasict stands. From historical books that i read, non-christian by the way, in the first edition of Theory of Evolution by Darwin, he did highlight that Europeans, or humans with fair complexions (white) or more evloved that the people found in Africa or the East. This was vastly popular with a lot of slave traders during the late 20th century. Hitler was a firm believer of Evolution and lead to his hate for the Jews as he regarded them as less evloved than the Germans.
So i would say that Evolution can be classified as a Religion because one would believe in no God, or men are their own gods. And that puts you as an Evolutionist, not an atheist. -
Hi Red_Ryder, nice to have you drop in, welcome.Originally posted by red_ryder:It's great to see so many replies...let me try to answer.
1. In my view, the purpose in life is different for everybody and it is up to the individual to find meaning in his own life.
2. I don't believe that humans were created. I believe that we evolved from the same ancestor as the other primates and apes. And to answer an earlier post, evolution is not a series of chance and accidents. Sure it relies on chance mutation, but only those that are useful for the creature to adapt to its environment are kept. A ton of other non-useful chance mutations are useless and will not be propagated to future generations.
3. Of course I don't have concrete proof that God is false. Neither is there concrete proof that God is real. Hence, I choose not to believe in a god until I am convinced of one.
Been extremely busy with a project so you'll have to excuse me for not participating as much as i would have liked.
Just a thought from what you wrote on point 3, with that you're more proper an agnostic instead of an atheist.
With regards to leap of faith, we (you) do practise faith everyday in our life whether we like or know it. You're not asked to blindly worship a stone statue or an ancient tree, for one, there's an instruction guide to God, it's called the Holy Bible.
As to point 2, there was a discussion in this thread http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=61376 sometime back, perhaps you may wanna read it and contribute. -
That's a common misconception of evolution. Evolution is not about becoming more and more advanced or superior. It's simply changing to best adapt to your environment. Once an animal is suitably adapted, it doesn't need to evolve drastically anymore.Originally posted by fandango:Point 2. Evolution has always been a theory, it has never been scientifically proven officially (thats a mouthful or words.). My personal belief is that, yes there is mutation. Like many many breeds of dogs and wolves and foxes mutated from 1 a single species of dog over the years. (Interestingly, Christians will hold to the belief that Earth is only 4000 years old, not 10 or 100 million or billion years.)
When i watch those apes and primates documentaries on discovery channel, i do wonder, if man had evloved from apes and primates over the years, why do we still have apes and primates today? Should all of them became intelligent and became human?
Another misconception is that we evolved from apes. We didn't. We come from the same ancestor as apes, we just evolved along different paths. In our case, intelligence was a byproduct of evolution, while in the case of apes it was of a lesser degree. Intelligence obviously was a very successful byproduct of evolution, and made us the masters of the planet today. Apes didn't evolve to our level of intelligence probably because it wasn't needed for their environment.
Evolution is a theory, but much evidence has accumulated in support of evolution since Darwin's time. I don't remember offhand right now, but any biology textbook would probably have a few. Evolution remains a theory because unlike the Law of Gravity it cannot be "tested" in a laboratory, but the evidence is there all the same.
Oh well, just because people have twisted evolution into racism and hatred doesn't make it untrue. Atrocities have also been conducted in the name of religion right?Originally posted by fandango:If you study a little more about the beginning of this theory of Evolution, Charles Darwin actually based it on a rasict stands. From historical books that i read, non-christian by the way, in the first edition of Theory of Evolution by Darwin, he did highlight that Europeans, or humans with fair complexions (white) or more evloved that the people found in Africa or the East. This was vastly popular with a lot of slave traders during the late 20th century. Hitler was a firm believer of Evolution and lead to his hate for the Jews as he regarded them as less evloved than the Germans.
So i would say that Evolution can be classified as a Religion because one would believe in no God, or men are their own gods. And that puts you as an Evolutionist, not an atheist.
I am an atheist simply because I don't believe in the existence of gods or higher beings. Evolution cannot be classified into a religion, I don't pray or worship evolution. It's just a scientific theory, not a belief system or a way of life.
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Star warsOriginally posted by wuming78:hm.. sounds familiar.. -
Nope, I'm not an agnostic. Agnostics claim that they don't know whether a god exists or not, thus do not make any judgments. It is purely a matter of knowledge. I am an Atheist because I do not believe in higher beings or gods, and that belief is based upon reasoning and logic. Agnosticism is a matter of knowledge, whereas Atheism is simply the absence of belief. You can have atheistic agnostics or religious agnostics.Originally posted by M:Hi Red_Ryder, nice to have you drop in, welcome.
Been extremely busy with a project so you'll have to excuse me for not participating as much as i would have liked.
Just a thought from what you wrote on point 3, with that you're more proper an agnostic instead of an atheist. -
I may not be able to disqualify Darwinism or evolution but is it really easier to believe than the biblical talk that God created us?Originally posted by red_ryder:It's great to see so many replies...let me try to answer.
1. In my view, the purpose in life is different for everybody and it is up to the individual to find meaning in his own life.
2. I don't believe that humans were created. I believe that we evolved from the same ancestor as the other primates and apes. And to answer an earlier post, evolution is not a series of chance and accidents. Sure it relies on chance mutation, but only those that are useful for the creature to adapt to its environment are kept. A ton of other non-useful chance mutations are useless and will not be propagated to future generations.
3. Of course I don't have concrete proof that God is false. Neither is there concrete proof that God is real. Hence, I choose not to believe in a god until I am convinced of one.
Is it really so easy to believe:
1) when Darwin said that the leap from non living chemicals to simple one cell organism isnt that much but now we can know that even the most simple one cell organism is so complicated that no one today can claim to make a perfect duplication.
2) When Darwin said that one cell organisms are simple when we can know nowadays that even the most basic one cell organism has its own decoding systems, memory banks to store and retrieve impressive amounts of information, and proofreading and quality control mechanisms which safeguard against errors. Does this look simple?
3) Blind chance is an incredibly inefficient way to accomplish anything complex. If i were to put the 26 alphabets into a bag, how many of u will bet that I can get the 9 letters forming 'EVOLUTION' in the correct order and how long do you think it would take even if i achieve it.
I would not go on further because i am not well studied in evolution but I can only say that even if there is no 100% evidence that God created us, EVOLUTION is still hard a pill to swallow given the complexity of it all. -
I'm sorry I may have misread. I had presumed that if one didn't have a firm evidential belief of sorts in a matter, one would be doubtful and noncommital about the issue, recognising it could be impossible to know (whether there is a God) and hence an agnostic. So would you be an atheistic agnostic? since you do not know if there is a god or any higher power out there (or within) and thus lack a god belief. No? Alright, atheist it is then. =)Originally posted by red_ryder:...
3. Of course I don't have concrete proof that God is false. Neither is there concrete proof that God is real. Hence, I choose not to believe in a god until I am convinced of one.Originally posted by red_ryder:
Share with me this reasoning and logic that gives you faith in the void of divinity, is that why you're here? Before so, what would it take to convince, even when it does, assure you? A supporting paradox? Miracles? A believing heart?
Nope, I'm not an agnostic. Agnostics claim that they don't [b]know whether a god exists or not, thus do not make any judgments. It is purely a matter of knowledge. I am an Atheist because I do not believe in higher beings or gods, and that belief is based upon reasoning and logic. Agnosticism is a matter of knowledge, whereas Atheism is simply the absence of belief. You can have atheistic agnostics or religious agnostics. [/b] -
I don't see how evolution, if it works or not (and I believe it does... woah hold your horses and let me explain), should impact your belief in the concept of a God.
After all, what are we in the physical but a particulate organization of energy in the end, abbet terms such as biological or inorganic are simply concepts for man to classify matter, which I believe has little bearing on the fact that the entire universe is basically made of one stuff... matter, the particulate nature of energy.
Hence lift up your myopic sights from how life arose to how existence itself came into existence. What was the first cause? What made all this? We know for one thing that this universe is a finite, inperfect system that will wind down in the end, like a fire running out of fuel. It cannot fuel itself, it cannot make itself go on, as we all have known that this is impossible for all finite systems.
Basically every concept in science is a study of finite methods, and I'm not surprise things get terribly messed when we try to grasp infinite things with our finite minds and methods. It's no wonder many find the idea of rationalizing and reasoning God into being basically a hopeless task. We can do it to some extent, but to try to define what he's ALL about is prehaps a fool errand. And so many of us give up.
The truth is, we cannot know it all. Christians don't dare claim they know even much about God besides what we believe has been revealed to us. My opinion? Evolution had little bearing on weather God exists or not, the question of God is ultimately a question of faith unfortunately. But I know that despite my overwhelming rational mind and heavy handed knowledge of supposed athiestic disciplines of science (which no doubt raised many eyebrows admist my kin) I can say that God worked for me, and I believe in Him.
Why? Can I put it down to a rational, idealized choice?
In a way I can, I couldn't rationalize God, but I knew that I had nothing to lose by trying Him out for once. I mean, if He didn't exist, He would't work out. What did I have to lose anyway? Was I going to keep rationalizing and trying to comprehend life, let alone this universe with my finite mind and die never actually giving it a shot? Again, what did I have to lose?
So I "gambled". And hey presto... it worked.
As I said, we can only explain and tell you so much... most of the rest I'm afraid, is up to you to try it out for yourself and see if it works. 23 million chinese christians facing intense presceution from the chinese govt. obviously had everything to gain had they just bought the atheistic party line, but why do they persist? Why? chinese christians? Why? Why do they do it?
Unfortunately nobody can be told who or what God is, you will just have to experience Him for yourself. -
From the inputs so far, what most of us are saying is that none of us waited to prove that God exists before we believed.
Many would say the Bible is the proof and much more would disapprove of that. Believe is really a personal choice. Jesus performed miracles and yet many accused him of blasphemy. God can appear right in front of you, and you may still not believe He exists.
I would say God's existence is shown in His creations. This earth and the life that populates it.
And it's not enough to just believe of His existence. Christianity is a two-way relationship with God. We are blessed by abiding in His love and obeying commandments.