Historical evidence for the Bible
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I find it odd that the Bible's authencity is questioned when it has existed since the 4th century (eg Codex Vaticanus is one of the oldest copies of the Bible in existence today) and it has been widely accepted and used by academic scholars and the public alike for more than a millenia.
Anyway, here's an interesting article that shows the evidence for the Bible, ancient as well as present day - http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/are-the-gospels-myth. I've taken the liberty of putting some extracts below for easy reading.
First, there is the sheer number of ancient copies of the New Testament. There are close to 5,700 full or partial Greek New Testament manuscripts in existence. Most of these date from between the second to 16th century, with the oldest, known as Papyrus 52 (which contains John 18), dating from around A.D. 100–150...
In addition to the thousands of Greek manuscripts, there are an additional 10,000 Latin manuscripts, and thousands of additional manuscripts in Syriac, Aramaic, and Coptic, for a total of about 24,000 full or partial manuscripts of the New Testament. And then there are the estimated one million quotes from the New Testament in the writings of the Church Fathers (A.D. 150–1300)...
Anyone who denies that Jesus existed or who claims that the Gospels are filled with historical errors or fabrications will, in good conscience, have to explain why they don’t make the same assessment about the historical works of Pliny the Younger, Suetonius, Julius Caesar, Livy, Josephus, Tacitus, and other classical authors...
Secondly, historical details are found in the Gospels and the other books of the New Testament. These include numerous mentions of secular rulers and leaders (Caesar Augustus, Pontius Pilate, Herod, Felix, Archelaus, Agrippa, Gallio), as well as Jewish leaders (Caiaphas, Ananias)—the sort of names unlikely to be used inaccurately or even to show up in a "myth."...
Then there are the specifically Jewish details, including references to and descriptions of festivals, religious traditions, farming and fishing equipment, buildings, trades, social structures, and religious hierarchies. As numerous books and articles have shown in recent decades, the beliefs and ideas found in the Gospels accurately reflect a first-century Jewish context...
Various modern archeological discoveries have validated specific details found in the Gospels:
- In 1961 a mosaic from the third century was found in Caesarea Maritima that had the name "Nazareth" in it. This is the first known ancient non-biblical reference to Nazareth.
- Coins with the names of the Herod family have been discovered, including the names of Herod the king, Herod the tetrarch of Galilee (who killed John the Baptist), Herod Agrippa I (who killed James Zebedee), and Herod Agrippa II (before whom Paul testified).
- In 1990 an ossuary was found inscribed with the Aramaic words, "Joseph son of Caiaphas," believed to be a reference to the high priest Caiaphas.
- In 1968 an ossuary was discovered near Jerusalem bearing the bones of a man who had been executed by crucifixion in the first century. These are the only known remains of a man crucified in Roman Palestine, and verify the descriptions given in the Gospels of Jesus’ Crucifixion.
- In June 1961 Italian archaeologists excavating an ancient Roman amphitheatre near Caesarea-on-the-Sea (Maritima) uncovered a limestone block. On its face is an inscription (part of a larger dedication to Tiberius Caesar) that reads: "Pontius Pilate, Prefect of Judaea."
Third, there are extra-biblical, ancient references to Jesus and early Christianity. Although the number of non-Christian Roman writings from the first half of the first century is quite small (just a few volumes), there are a couple of significant references:
Writing to the Emperor Trajan around A.D. 112, Pliny the Younger reported on the trials of certain Christians arrested by the Romans. He noted that those who are "really Christians" would never curse Christ.
The historian Tacitus, in his Annals —considered by historians to be one the finest works of ancient Roman history—mentioned how the Emperor Nero, following the fire in Rome in A.D. 64, persecuted Christians in order to draw attention away from himself. The passage is noteworthy as an unfriendly source because although Tacitus thought Nero was appalling, he also despised the foreign and, to him, superstitious religion of Christianity.
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Here's a new book that I have just begun reading. Highly recommended!
http://www.crossway.org/books/do-historical-matters-matter-to-faith-tpb/
See reviews below
http://www.amazon.com/Historical-Matters-Matter-Faith-Postmodern/dp/1433525712
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Originally posted by Servant:
I find it odd that the Bible's authencity is questioned when it has existed since the 4th century (eg Codex Vaticanus is one of the oldest copies of the Bible in existence today) and it has been widely accepted and used by academic scholars and the public alike for more than a millenia.
Anyway, here's an interesting article that shows the evidence for the Bible, ancient as well as present day - http://www.catholic.com/magazine/articles/are-the-gospels-myth. I've taken the liberty of putting some extracts below for easy reading.
First, there is the sheer number of ancient copies of the New Testament. There are close to 5,700 full or partial Greek New Testament manuscripts in existence. Most of these date from between the second to 16th century, with the oldest, known as Papyrus 52 (which contains John 18), dating from around A.D. 100–150...
In addition to the thousands of Greek manuscripts, there are an additional 10,000 Latin manuscripts, and thousands of additional manuscripts in Syriac, Aramaic, and Coptic, for a total of about 24,000 full or partial manuscripts of the New Testament. And then there are the estimated one million quotes from the New Testament in the writings of the Church Fathers (A.D. 150–1300)...
Anyone who denies that Jesus existed or who claims that the Gospels are filled with historical errors or fabrications will, in good conscience, have to explain why they don’t make the same assessment about the historical works of Pliny the Younger, Suetonius, Julius Caesar, Livy, Josephus, Tacitus, and other classical authors...
Secondly, historical details are found in the Gospels and the other books of the New Testament. These include numerous mentions of secular rulers and leaders (Caesar Augustus, Pontius Pilate, Herod, Felix, Archelaus, Agrippa, Gallio), as well as Jewish leaders (Caiaphas, Ananias)—the sort of names unlikely to be used inaccurately or even to show up in a "myth."...
Then there are the specifically Jewish details, including references to and descriptions of festivals, religious traditions, farming and fishing equipment, buildings, trades, social structures, and religious hierarchies. As numerous books and articles have shown in recent decades, the beliefs and ideas found in the Gospels accurately reflect a first-century Jewish context...
Various modern archeological discoveries have validated specific details found in the Gospels:
- In 1961 a mosaic from the third century was found in Caesarea Maritima that had the name "Nazareth" in it. This is the first known ancient non-biblical reference to Nazareth.
- Coins with the names of the Herod family have been discovered, including the names of Herod the king, Herod the tetrarch of Galilee (who killed John the Baptist), Herod Agrippa I (who killed James Zebedee), and Herod Agrippa II (before whom Paul testified).
- In 1990 an ossuary was found inscribed with the Aramaic words, "Joseph son of Caiaphas," believed to be a reference to the high priest Caiaphas.
- In 1968 an ossuary was discovered near Jerusalem bearing the bones of a man who had been executed by crucifixion in the first century. These are the only known remains of a man crucified in Roman Palestine, and verify the descriptions given in the Gospels of Jesus’ Crucifixion.
- In June 1961 Italian archaeologists excavating an ancient Roman amphitheatre near Caesarea-on-the-Sea (Maritima) uncovered a limestone block. On its face is an inscription (part of a larger dedication to Tiberius Caesar) that reads: "Pontius Pilate, Prefect of Judaea."
Third, there are extra-biblical, ancient references to Jesus and early Christianity. Although the number of non-Christian Roman writings from the first half of the first century is quite small (just a few volumes), there are a couple of significant references:
Writing to the Emperor Trajan around A.D. 112, Pliny the Younger reported on the trials of certain Christians arrested by the Romans. He noted that those who are "really Christians" would never curse Christ.
The historian Tacitus, in his Annals —considered by historians to be one the finest works of ancient Roman history—mentioned how the Emperor Nero, following the fire in Rome in A.D. 64, persecuted Christians in order to draw attention away from himself. The passage is noteworthy as an unfriendly source because although Tacitus thought Nero was appalling, he also despised the foreign and, to him, superstitious religion of Christianity.
Servant
Stop going in circles. I have told you before that we question not the historial parts BUT the magic parts, like donkey talking, man walking on water and man in a fish.
These "magic stuff" appear in a lot of other religions too.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
Servant
Stop going in circles. I have told you before that we question not the historial parts BUT the magic parts, like donkey talking, man walking on water and man in a fish.
These "magic stuff" appear in a lot of other religions too.
they always mislead everyone
when u question kong hee, they say you question god
if you question their behaviour, they say you question god
etc etc
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
Servant
Stop going in circles. I have told you before that we question not the historial parts BUT the magic parts, like donkey talking, man walking on water and man in a fish.
These "magic stuff" appear in a lot of other religions too.
Even if the historical and archaeological evidence says otherwise? Sorry, I thought we are supposed to be scientific :)And speaking of science, the evidence affirms the authencity of the Bible as a whole. I'm not sure there are credible scientists or historians who say, "Yes, this document is authentic, but hey, this part sounds a little crazy, so let's exclude it." And by the way, the crazy or 'magic stuff' as you put it, is your own arbitary standard.
I'm sorry, but science and historical research doesn't quite work this way.
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Originally posted by Servant:
Even if the historical and archaeological evidence says otherwise? Sorry, I thought we are supposed to be scientific :)1st thing 1st................do you believe Osama did 9/11..................???
if yes, then you should believe in the bible.....................
as well as Darth Vader....................and Harry Potter................
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Originally posted by Servant:
Even if the historical and archaeological evidence says otherwise? Sorry, I thought we are supposed to be scientific :)What did the historical and archaeological evidence say otherwise? That the bible is from God?
What evidence show that the bible is from God? The historical and archaelogical evidence say so.
....
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Originally posted by Aneslayer:
What did the historical and archaeological evidence say otherwise? That the bible is from God?
What evidence show that the bible is from God? The historical and archaelogical evidence say so.
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Since the wealth of evidence shows the Bible to be an authentic document, then we can infer that the many writers of the Bible believed in what they were writing and more importantly, who they were writing for. And I think that is enough for Christians, especially when the Bible relates the actual occurence of Jesus Christ walking on this very Earth 2000 years ago, a fact that is also affirmed by archaeological evidence and extra-biblical sources.
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Originally posted by Tcmc:
Servant
Stop going in circles. I have told you before that we question not the historial parts BUT the magic parts, like donkey talking, man walking on water and man in a fish.
These "magic stuff" appear in a lot of other religions too.
The miracles and other supernatural events that occurred took place in real history. Jesus' miracles and resurrection took place in human history. How do you go about affirming only the historical parts but not the miracles which you derogatory label as "magic"? ow
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
The miracles and other supernatural events that occurred took place in real history. Jesus' miracles and resurrection took place in human history. How do you go about affirming only the historical parts but not the miracles which you derogatory label as "magic"? ow
how about supernatural events that took place in other religions?Anyway i wonder how those super natural events can be verified to have actually taken place in history as you claim it has.
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Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:
how about supernatural events that took place in other religions?Anyway i wonder how those super natural events can be verified to have actually taken place in history as you claim it has.
Before answerring further, let's state the only two alternatives:
Either the supernatural realm exists and miracles are possible
or
There is no supernatural realm and miracles are impossible
Where do you stand?
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Before answerring further, let's state the only two alternatives:
Either the supernatural realm exists and miracles are possible
or
There is no supernatural realm and miracles are impossible
Where do you stand?
why would you not want to answer further but instead ask more questions?
you said supernatural stuffs are possible and has happened. I am asking you what about other religions. Which essentially would not matter where i stand.
If it exists, it would not only have existed for christianity and if it existed as you've said, im curious about the prove of it, outside of biblical evidences, there has gotta be historical evidence.
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Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:
why would you not want to answer further but instead ask more questions?
you said supernatural stuffs are possible and has happened. I am asking you what about other religions. Which essentially would not matter where i stand.
If it exists, it would not only have existed for christianity and if it existed as you've said, im curious about the prove of it, outside of biblical evidences, there has gotta be historical evidence.
Socratic reasoning.
Sometimes the answers can be discovered by having good questions being asked.
My answers will be based on certain presuppositions, assumptions, perspectives of the world. Your answer to my question will set the background so to speak. If your answer is NO, then any answer to you is really moot. Agree?
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Originally posted by Servant:
Since the wealth of evidence shows the Bible to be an authentic document, then we can infer that the many writers of the Bible believed in what they were writing and more importantly, who they were writing for. And I think that is enough for Christians, especially when the Bible relates the actual occurence of Jesus Christ walking on this very Earth 2000 years ago, a fact that is also affirmed by archaeological evidence and extra-biblical sources.
^Exactly showing my point of circular reasoning... I mean there are hard evidences of Greek myth in text and the gods were worshipped... does not mean Olympians or Titans exist/ed. That is my line of reasoning...
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Socratic reasoning.
Sometimes the answers can be discovered by having good questions being asked.
My answers will be based on certain presuppositions, assumptions, perspectives of the world. Your answer to my question will set the background so to speak. If your answer is NO, then any answer to you is really moot. Agree?
nope... disagree... i don't have to knock down someone else's opinion to prove mine is right. Im merely asking questions. U could have answered it simple and directly. -
Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:
nope... disagree... i don't have to knock down someone else's opinion to prove mine is right. Im merely asking questions. U could have answered it simple and directly.This is a dialogue or discussion, not a mechanical Q&A session. Dishing answers is easy, but if you do not wish to take some mental effort in thinking through some preliminary stuff then it will not be productive at all.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
This is a dialogue or discussion, not a mechanical Q&A session. Dishing answers is easy, but if you do not wish to take some mental effort in thinking through some preliminary stuff then it will not be productive at all.
and so essentially you just refused an answer arh? Could have just told me that. -
Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:
and so essentially you just refused an answer arh? Could have just told me that.Wrong. What I am refusing is to be your answering machine. Let this be an interactive discussion, even if it means questioning your questions so as to uncover hidden assumptions, biases or prejudices.
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Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Wrong. What I am refusing is to be your answering machine. Let this be an interactive discussion, even if it means questioning your questions so as to uncover hidden assumptions, biases or prejudices.
LOL. You were never into an interactive discussion anyway. Do not speak as if you need to uncover hidden assumptions, biases or prejudices from me as though i do have alot. You do have alot too. But it is ok if you do not wish to answer. -
Originally posted by Aneslayer:
^Exactly showing my point of circular reasoning... I mean there are hard evidences of Greek myth in text and the gods were worshipped... does not mean Olympians or Titans exist/ed. That is my line of reasoning...
Big difference here is that Jesus Christ himself actually walked this Earth 2000 years ago - an event recorded in sources from outside the Bible as I've already mentioned -
Originally posted by Servant:
Big difference here is that Jesus Christ himself actually walked this Earth 2000 years ago - an event recorded in sources from outside the Bible as I've already mentionedBear with me, I am not trying to disprove anything except logic and reasoning. What exactly are the outside sources apart from the bible?
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Originally posted by Aneslayer:
Bear with me, I am not trying to disprove anything except logic and reasoning. What exactly are the outside sources apart from the bible?
They are mentioned in the article at the beginning of this thread. Did you read it? -
Originally posted by Servant:
They are mentioned in the article at the beginning of this thread. Did you read it?
End of discussion I guess...
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Originally posted by Aneslayer:
End of discussion I guess...
Why? -
Originally posted by Servant:
Why?I realise it loops back to my 1st post... so I figure I'd better withdraw then go on. :)