Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:
for his beliefs, god is the reason for everything
In the same way that for you God is never the reason for anything.
I am gonna be the AIDS virus n put on the minds of those ppl. God is the reason for sth. It's called sufferings...
Originally posted by despondent:I am gonna be the AIDS virus n put on the minds of those ppl. God is the reason for sth. It's called sufferings...
Unfortunately that line of argument is not available to the atheist, since he cannot attribute anything to God, a being whose existence the atheist denies.
Death and suffering is the consequence of Adam's rebellion against God, as the Bible clearly teaches. We now live in a fallen world, but a new heavens and a new earth is coming. The curse will be lifted and death will be no more. This is the living hope of those who are in Christ.
But for the atheist, suffering is simply the outworkings of nature red in tooth and claw. There is nothing morally bad about suffering at all. It just is. There is no sense or meaning or purpose. Only pitiless indifference, as Dawkins so said.
But for the atheist, suffering is simply the outworkings of nature red in tooth and claw. There is nothing morally bad about suffering at all. It just is. There is no sense or meaning or purpose. Only pitiless indifference, as Dawkins so said.
Nothing wrong with that. Suffering is the way it is, you can't call it moral or immoral. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean there is a god.
The infliction of suffering is immoral.
Originally posted by alize:But for the atheist, suffering is simply the outworkings of nature red in tooth and claw. There is nothing morally bad about suffering at all. It just is. There is no sense or meaning or purpose. Only pitiless indifference, as Dawkins so said.
Nothing wrong with that. Suffering is the way it is, you can't call it moral or immoral. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean there is a god.
The infliction of suffering is immoral.
Again you should know that for the atheist, that line of argument is simply unavailable. Your worldview does not supply you with the basis for calling anything moral or immoral. Wanna borrow?
Looks like you are trying to make yourself look good by making lame excuses for your incompetence. What you are really trying to say is that you will unleash your atheistic arguments on those Christians who are less equipped to defend Christianity and who make for easy targets.
To the contrary, I will speak to Christians who are better logically equipped than you to ponder this important question.
Originally posted by alize:Looks like you are trying to make yourself look good by making lame excuses for your incompetence. What you are really trying to say is that you will unleash your atheistic arguments on those Christians who are less equipped to defend Christianity and who make for easy targets.
To the contrary, I will speak to Christians who are better logically equipped than you to ponder this important question.
But the problem is that you cannot even logically demonstrate what is wrong with my argument, what makes you think you can even handle those better equipped than me? You up to it to take on William Lane Craig, Norman Geisler, Ravi Zacharias, to name a few? Don't bite off more than what you can chew on.
The Existence of God - The First Cause Argument
Bertrand thinks that the first cause argument is fallacious because it raises the question of "so who created God?" Today, followers of Dawkins make the same arrogant remark along the lines of "If everything need a cause, then who created God? Neh neh neh bu bu!" But this objection is as superficial as it is immature. In the first place, it is a strawman argument. The Christian does not argue that everything must have a cause. The right argument is that everything that has a BEGINNING must have a cause. God is eternal, has always existed, and thus does not require a cause. Thus the atheist's objection vanishes.
Atheists do not say that everything has a cause. Christians say that everything had to be created by god. This is the Creationist view that Atheists attack.
Atheists say that if you want to believe everything has a cause, then God must also have a cause. You cannot pick and choose things that are special and have no cause. If God has no cause, why must everything else have a cause?
Everything that was made by something else, had a cause up the chain, but each underlying building block of matter need not have a cause. Can you create new matter, or destroy it?
You cannot spin a fairy tale story like the Bible around these facts and say that something eternal made them.
But the problem is that you cannot even logically demonstrate what is wrong with my argument, what makes you think you can even handle those better equipped than me? You up to it to take on William Lane Craig, Norman Geisler, Ravi Zacharias, to name a few? Don't bite off more than what you can chew on.
Are you any better when you say that objective moral standards can only be given by your god?
Originally posted by alize:The Existence of God - The First Cause Argument
Bertrand thinks that the first cause argument is fallacious because it raises the question of "so who created God?" Today, followers of Dawkins make the same arrogant remark along the lines of "If everything need a cause, then who created God? Neh neh neh bu bu!" But this objection is as superficial as it is immature. In the first place, it is a strawman argument. The Christian does not argue that everything must have a cause. The right argument is that everything that has a BEGINNING must have a cause. God is eternal, has always existed, and thus does not require a cause. Thus the atheist's objection vanishes.
Atheists do not say that everything has a cause. Christians say that everything had to be created by god. This is the Creationist view that Atheists attack.
Atheists say that if you want to believe everything has a cause, then God must also have a cause. You cannot pick and choose things that are special and have no cause. If God has no cause, why must everything else have a cause?
Everything that was made by something else, had a cause up the chain, but each underlying building block of matter need not have a cause. Can you create new matter, or destroy it?
You cannot spin a fairy tale story like the Bible around these facts and say that something eternal made them.
You did not read properly. I said that atheists knock down strawman arguments by saying that Christians said that everything has a cause. I repeat, the Christian says that everything that HAS A BEGINNING has a cause. The universe we live in has a beginning, therefore it requires a cause. Either you agree with this or you do not. I will not allow the atheist to skirt and evade the question by ask who created God (which in any case has been answered many times). If I ask you who baked the cake, is it relevant asking who is the parent of the one who baked the cake?
So the question to you remains, WHAT IS THE CAUSE OF THE UNIVERSE? Instead of talking about many things, let's just cut to the chase and sum it up at the level of the universe.
You have only TWO options as an atheist. Either the universe made itself from nothing, or it always existed. Take your pick and defend it.
Originally posted by alize:But the problem is that you cannot even logically demonstrate what is wrong with my argument, what makes you think you can even handle those better equipped than me? You up to it to take on William Lane Craig, Norman Geisler, Ravi Zacharias, to name a few? Don't bite off more than what you can chew on.
Are you any better when you say that objective moral standards can only be given by your god?
Can you show me one example of a logically better equipped and well-known Christian thinker who denies that God is the source of objective moral values?
Atheists do not just lack belief in the Christian god, for your info.
Atheists lack belief in the Hindu Gods, Islam God, Christian God, Jewish God, Chinese Gods, Greek Gods etc.
For some atheists, this lack of belief extends to elves, fairies, spirits, ghosts and angels etc.
Originally posted by Tcmc:Atheists do not just lack belief in the Christian god, for your info.
Atheists lack belief in the Hindu Gods, Islam God, Christian God, Jewish God, Chinese Gods, Greek Gods etc.
For some atheists, this lack of belief extends to elves, fairies, spirits, ghosts and angels etc.
LOL...his point here is only about christian gods...he aint really bothered with the rest. Have not seen u around for a long time TCMC
Originally posted by BroInChrist:Can you show me one example of a logically better equipped and well-known Christian thinker who denies that God is the source of objective moral values?
i do not think you understood what alize meant.
So the question to you remains, WHAT IS THE CAUSE OF THE UNIVERSE? Instead of talking about many things, let's just cut to the chase and sum it up at the level of the universe.
You have only TWO options as an atheist. Either the universe made itself from nothing, or it always existed. Take your pick and defend it.
Nobody knows what caused the universe. To scientific thinkers the question goes unanswered. Does it mean god made it?
If you choose to believe a fairy tale that your God made it in 7 days, so be it. Very logical of you.
god created the earth in 7 days lol. why 7 days, why not in an instant? you cant fathom this could you.
do you find this logical and coherent, that god created us so that we can worship god?
Originally posted by BroInChrist:laurence, you still projecting?
cease to talk, agent of satan!
Originally posted by Tcmc:Atheists do not just lack belief in the Christian god, for your info.
Atheists lack belief in the Hindu Gods, Islam God, Christian God, Jewish God, Chinese Gods, Greek Gods etc.
For some atheists, this lack of belief extends to elves, fairies, spirits, ghosts and angels etc.
ya god exists in the bible to me, the way superman exists in DC Comics.
I just researched this. According to the bible,
1. Our Earth is older than the sun and the moon.
2. Our sun is the oldest star in the universe.
3. Yet light was created before the sun.
4. Day and night were created earlier than the sun.
5. Day and night are independent of the sun.
6. Before all the above was created, there were only two things. Water below and darkness above.
7. This applied throughout the universe. Water "down" and darkness "up". What to do, the concept of round earth was not known. Refer to day and night being independent of the sun.
8. I assume water was "down" because god hovered "over" the water.
Quoting Genesis:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. <animals, plants and dry land created...>
And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
Originally posted by alize:
I just researched this. According to the bible,
1. Our Earth is older than the sun and the moon.
2. Our sun is the oldest star in the universe.
3. Yet light was created before the sun.
4. Day and night were created earlier than the sun.
5. Day and night are independent of the sun.
6. Before all the above was created, there were only two things. Water below and darkness above.
7. This applied throughout the universe. Water "down" and darkness "up". What to do, the concept of round earth was not known. Refer to day and night being independent of the sun.
8. I assume water was "down" because god hovered "over" the water.
Quoting Genesis:
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day. <animals, plants and dry land created...>
And God said, “Let there be lights in the vault of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark sacred times, and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth.” And it was so. God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the vault of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.
alize,
the bible also says that bats are birds and that the mustard seed is the smallest. All wrong.
Originally posted by Tcmc:Atheists do not just lack belief in the Christian god, for your info.
Atheists lack belief in the Hindu Gods, Islam God, Christian God, Jewish God, Chinese Gods, Greek Gods etc.
For some atheists, this lack of belief extends to elves, fairies, spirits, ghosts and angels etc.
Then we have lots in common. I also do not believe in elves and fairies, Greek gods and goddesses and many other things.
So let's focus on the things we do not share in common regarding this. But really, its naturalism vs theism. What's your evidence that matter is all there is?
Originally posted by [imdestinyz]:
i do not think you understood what alize meant.
Please enlighten me then.