are the numbers in the number series at the same level as the infinity? if they are, why cun our mega computers or calculators compute the value of infinity?
Originally posted by troublemaker2005:I **** off so many times in church toilets? but does God even care?
god cares when the tian ta xia lai.
It just boils down to argument of semantics
Endless debates. No one can proove or disprove. You guys might as well debate. What good is there in having religion. What good is there believing in god.
my debate wif fairyfairy is actually very simple...i am not trying to get her to be christisn or agree wif christianity...i am juz letting her noe that christianity and buddhism are not the same...tats all...
Originally posted by despondent:my debate wif fairyfairy is actually very simple...i am not trying to get her to be christisn or agree wif christianity...i am juz letting her noe that christianity and buddhism are not the same...tats all...
It is definitely not the same from the beginning.
Originally posted by 24/7:Not necessary. From the BBC War Audit, "Atheist governments in the USSR, China and Russia were in fact the biggest perpetrators of mass violence that the world has ever seen, with both governments individually responsible for many more deaths than the Nazi regime of Adolf Hitler."
Having a faith or the lack of it isn't the problem. The picture's much more complicated than that.
True. the USSR did violently quell religion... And the French Revolution was violent for the atheist. To be fair, both side has its number of fanatics. So what do you see of religion. Some might say, God is only a medium through which the religion gains power. What do you see in a world without religion ?
a world that exist without any purpose?
Wow..still deciding who go to hell?
Aiyo, dont argue lah, good heart will go to heaven. Bad heart will go to hell.
Make it simple and straight forward.
Originally posted by 24/7:the atheist cannot perform objective testing without first presupposing an objective reality in the first place. the laws of nature don't work itself out over the years. the law of gravity existed way before it was discovered, it wasn't invented. same with the laws of logic - Aristotle discovered it, he didn't create it. So the question then is how do these laws come about? In a constantly changing universe, as the atheist has suggested, how does he account for universal, unchanging and immaterial laws?
ur kind because when they failed to answer your question according to the point, and move on other irrelevant topics, you grant them the leeway and indulge them in it. kind as in generous, not in the moral sense. there's nothing wrong in being nice to some people, but there has to be a limit - one should not throw pearls before swines.
Meaning things can't function on their own, and that there must be a 'god' that controls everything ?
Originally posted by TTFU:Meaning things can't function on their own, and that there must be a 'god' that controls everything ?
Yes, that is what christianity means
not exactly...its having a God who created everything, giving them ability to exercise self-control...
Originally posted by despondent:not exactly...its having a God who created everything, giving them ability to exercise self-control...
bible says man plans but God disposes, correct me if i am wrong, this is somewhere in old testament
Originally posted by despondent:a world that exist without any purpose?
Maybe perhaps a more immoral world ? When science actually replaces religion. The never ending evil cycle is there, just simply because humans are evil.
to hasene
yes, u are rite...so tahtsthe freewill man has although i would agree wif TTFU tat its not total freewill...
to TTFU
then the issue is how did humans become evil? yes, this world is full of suffering but why?
Originally posted by despondent:to hasene
yes, u are rite...so tahtsthe freewill man has although i would agree wif TTFU tat its not total freewill...
to TTFU
then the issue is how did humans become evil? yes, this world is full of suffering but why?
the bible is trying to say that ultimately is God that is in control. actually free will or not it is debatable to some people.
no matter how science or religion is important, its best to stick on a pragmatic course...
evil arises from the mind which is influenced by the environment
why the world suffers....has the same answer as above...arises from the mind that attaches with the heart....for full details, please read The Buddha - The discovery of suffering and detachment
Originally posted by TTFU:Meaning things can't function on their own, and that there must be a 'god' that controls everything ?
if that's where the evidence and reasoning leads to, then yes.
it sounds as if you're uncomfortable somewhat with the thought of an entity that reigns supreme over you and controls all things. A reason for the a priori rejection of God seems to be moral rather than intellectual, e.g. I don't want God to exist rather than it's not possible that God exists. I might be wrong though.
Originally posted by TTFU:True. the USSR did violently quell religion... And the French Revolution was violent for the atheist. To be fair, both side has its number of fanatics. So what do you see of religion. Some might say, God is only a medium through which the religion gains power. What do you see in a world without religion ?
arbitrariness, more violence (a trend observed by the War Audit), and more unreasonable people? To be fair, the "blame" cannot be attributed to religionist or non-religionist, there's no middle ground to be sought, it's what it means to be a human - we do such things, it's in our nature. We should be looking for an answer and explanation of this human condition, not sweep it under the rug.
Originally posted by despondent:u see. 24/7...u can understand where i am coming from and so do i understand wad u mean...but they wun cos its 2 very diff schools of tots...btw, fairyfairy avoided a qn i asked...wads the value of infinity?
she probably must be tinking...wad has the value of infinity got to do wif who created God? tats where ur pt on premises comes in, 24/7...the premises...wads our premises? do creationists and non-creationists have similar premises?
huh? premises can be the same, but can lead to different conclusions. also, one needs to establish the soundness of the premises through reason, not assertion.
Originally posted by TTFU:Maybe perhaps a more immoral world ? When science actually replaces religion. The never ending evil cycle is there, just simply because humans are evil.
i concur.
Originally posted by despondent:to hasene
yes, u are rite...so tahtsthe freewill man has although i would agree wif TTFU tat its not total freewill...
to TTFU
then the issue is how did humans become evil? yes, this world is full of suffering but why?
what is evil? what is suffering? in a world without basis for objectivity, how can there be moral absolutes? why are we using such terms without thinking about how they are perceived?
To quote Ravi Zacharias on the evil happening in the world, "If there is such a thing as evil, aren't you assuming there is such a thing as good? If there's such a thing as good, you must affirm a moral law on the basis of which to differentiate between good and evil. But when you admit to a moral law, you must posit a moral lawgiver. That, however, is who you are trying to disprove and not prove. For if there's no moral lawgiver, there's no moral law. If there's no moral law, there's no good. If there's no good, there's no evil. What, then, is the question?"
24/7,
i fully agree wif u...but u see, to them, not everything on earth must have a beginning...the laws of nature doesnt need a beginning...humans dun need a beginning...the universe doesnt need a beginning...if everything needs a beginning, then they would ask '' whats the beginning of God?''
to them, the law of nature is the moral lawgiver. wads the moral standard? our conscience...which is definitely not perfect in my opinion...so everyone is entitled to his own opinions and hence everyone can go heaven which comes back to ur point...wads gd then since all are subject to individual opinions?
Originally posted by despondent:24/7,
i fully agree wif u...but u see, to them, not everything on earth must have a beginning...the laws of nature doesnt need a beginning...humans dun need a beginning...the universe doesnt need a beginning...if everything needs a beginning, then they would ask '' whats the beginning of God?''
to them, the law of nature is the moral lawgiver. wads the moral standard? our conscience...which is definitely not perfect in my opinion...so everyone is entitled to his own opinions and hence everyone can go heaven which comes back to ur point...wads gd then since all are subject to individual opinions?
i've never seen anybody make this argument, mostly because it is unsound - how does the speed of light or the law of gravity proceed to provide objective moral laws for minds?
if moral standard is determined according to our conscience or at best, individual opinions, then nothing i do can be rationally termed as wrong, simply because i opine that it is right. The rapist is not wrong since he's following the steps of his own conscience. The sociopath is justified in his murders since he derives personal satisfaction. Who then are we to pronounce judgments on them? What gives our opinions more weight than their own?
Not that everything needs a beginning, but everything that begins to exist - there was a time when it was not and now there is. The God revealed in the Christian scriptures is transcendant and prexisting, before (or when) time came to be, it was revealed that He was already there. And i also reckon people will seldom disagree that the universe doesn't have a beginning.
seems like its juz u and i left in this thead...kinda expected...haha...
anyway, the point i have been trying to make all these while is 1) tat one cannot view christianity from the eyes of buddhism, 2) the teachings of good works does not have its roots in heaven and hell but rather nirvana which is heaven somewhat but its a metaphorical heaven rather than an actual one that exist as a place, 3) salvation by grace and salvation by good works are 2 very diff teachings...although they are not mutually exclusive, they are very diff....in christianity, we have grace and good works but one refers to salvation the other refers to the aftermath of salvation...