u say some books r lost. Why do u say tat in the first place ? Why do u have tis conclusion ?
About jesus ultimate love by sacrificing himself... I don't really think he did any sacrifice at all.... I mean he go to heaven, he know he will go to heaven, he did not die, it is actually his father, which is actually him, plan his own death to satisfy himself. I don't see the love here... he plans his death, kill himself to appease himself seems more of a suicide... Actually I don't understand why people r so touch by his death when he doesn't actually die
Originally posted by Fantagf:
Tak boleh. Thumbpin is too short.
can. insert more on one point. The more the merrier.
Originally posted by reservistsianz:u say some books r lost. Why do u say tat in the first place ? Why do u have tis conclusion ?
About jesus ultimate love by sacrificing himself... I don't really think he did any sacrifice at all.... I mean he go to heaven, he know he will go to heaven, he did not die, it is actually his father, which is actually him, plan his own death to satisfy himself. I don't see the love here... he plans his death, kill himself to appease himself seems more of a suicide... Actually I don't understand why people r so touch by his death when he doesn't actually die
What you said is valid.
Originally posted by Itedino:
can. insert more on one point. The more the merrier.
cannot la, too light to hold the body weight
Originally posted by Fantagf:
cannot la, too light to hold the body weight
den lie on the floor la. No need to teach so clearly right.
Originally posted by Itedino:
den lie on the floor la. No need to teach so clearly right.
who lie on the floor, jesus?
Originally posted by reservistsianz:u say some books r lost. Why do u say tat in the first place ? Why do u have tis conclusion ?
About jesus ultimate love by sacrificing himself... I don't really think he did any sacrifice at all.... I mean he go to heaven, he know he will go to heaven, he did not die, it is actually his father, which is actually him, plan his own death to satisfy himself. I don't see the love here... he plans his death, kill himself to appease himself seems more of a suicide... Actually I don't understand why people r so touch by his death when he doesn't actually die
Because historically and with evidence of tampering. Constantine himself said it. It is known. It was recorded thats why i understood it. Someone mentioned constantine in this thread too. Even if it is not complete, the message remains.
See how u feel when are nailed up the cross, whether u are a willing or not. It is him sacrificing for us. Do u want to do it ? If to sacrifice so much, thorns on the head, carrying the cross, getting poked at with the spear, it again.. is the message of sacrifice because of love. Is it not that hard to comprehend love ?
Its not about the fact that He is 100% going to heaven. Once again i am talking about the message.
Picasso.. u admire the picture. You dont ask which paint and brush he uses, and say that he paints because he is a painter anyway. Its the message. The passion of his work.
Originally posted by BadzMaro:Because historically and with evidence of tampering. Constantine himself said it. It is known. It was recorded thats why i understood it. Someone mentioned constantine in this thread too. Even if it is not complete, the message remains.
See how u feel when are nailed up the cross, whether u are a willing or not. It is him sacrificing for us. Do u want to do it ? If to sacrifice so much, thorns on the head, carrying the cross, getting poked at with the spear, it again.. is the message of sacrifice because of love. Is it not that hard to comprehend love ?
Its not about the fact that He is 100% going to heaven. Once again i am talking about the message.
Picasso.. u admire the picture. You dont ask which paint and brush he uses, and say that he paints because he is a painter anyway. Its the message. The passion of his work.
To clear your confusion, just go pray to God to tell you answers, simple what.
Originally posted by reservistsianz:u say some books r lost. Why do u say tat in the first place ? Why do u have tis conclusion ?
About jesus ultimate love by sacrificing himself... I don't really think he did any sacrifice at all.... I mean he go to heaven, he know he will go to heaven, he did not die, it is actually his father, which is actually him, plan his own death to satisfy himself. I don't see the love here... he plans his death, kill himself to appease himself seems more of a suicide... Actually I don't understand why people r so touch by his death when he doesn't actually die
Actually I don't understand why people r so touch by his death when he doesn't actually die
Jesus really die and went through hell for you.Probably you lack of knowledge of the bible.
Read here for your understand and have a revelation that Jesus love you.
Originally posted by Wacky Sung:Actually I don't understand why people r so touch by his death when he doesn't actually die
Jesus really die and went through hell for you.Probably you lack of knowledge of the bible.
Read here for your understand and have a revelation that Jesus love you.
wahahahah!
Originally posted by Fantagf:
who lie on the floor, jesus?
what jesus. The person who is going to be kanna nail. Jesus already cruxied. No need 2nd time already.
Originally posted by Itedino:
what jesus. The person who is going to be kanna nail. Jesus already cruxied. No need 2nd time already.
Let the person choose. anyway, pungi jump also can, no need must nail
Originally posted by Fantagf:To clear your confusion, just go pray to God to tell you answers, simple what.
If it is so SIMPLE.. everyone wouldve attained that degree and Jesus like already. Even if i pray, how do i know it is the answer ? Have i been more in tune to know it ? You guys may be my answer as i have NEVER participated in this kind of discussion even in church. I find it... somewhat, more informed.
I always wondered what real love is. Is BGR love ? what love is that ? Affection , lust ? How do i know its love ? Am i too blinded by material things and money ?Most of the time i seem to be answering my own questions. And i have to thank you all to be honest.
I never particiapted in EH. Only this few weeks when i notice the strings of attacks n statements. So i had to challenge myself. My own understanding to date. I learn alot of things myself.
Originally posted by Wacky Sung:Actually I don't understand why people r so touch by his death when he doesn't actually die
Jesus really die and went through hell for you.Probably you lack of knowledge of the bible.
Read here for your understand and have a revelation that Jesus love you.
jesus went through hell for us, why he said those who do not believe in god will be sent to hell.
HIS LOVE IS WITH CONDITION : MUST BELIEVE IN HIM OR ELSE WILL BE SENT TO HELL. THIS IS NOT TRUE LOVE.
THIS IS TRUE LOVE :
it is unlike a mother's love which is unconditioned. a mother will love her child no matter how disobedience, how ugly or the whole world may not like her child but she will stand by her child no matter what happen.
Because historically and with evidence of tampering. Constantine himself said it. It is known. It was recorded thats why i understood it. Someone mentioned constantine in this thread too. Even if it is not complete, the message remains.
U r not wrong here. There r many instances where the bible undergoes censorship and selection where people use their biaseness to pick whatever they like to be included. Then it comes to my previous point again. The message of christainity is heavily skewed to one of 2 lines in the bible while completely ignoring other lines. Lets focus only on the 4 books that describe jesus. Jesus stated tat everyone must follow the old laws. He stated tat the rich must give up all his wealth before he could join christainity. And there is one line tat says believe in jesus is all tat is needed. And surprisingly, they just choose tat line for the direction of christianity. It depend on one or two line only. And tis message could be modified or added in. Wat u follow may be completely different from the intended message.
See how u feel when are nailed up the cross, whether u are a willing or not. It is him sacrificing for us. Do u want to do it ? If to sacrifice so much, thorns on the head, carrying the cross, getting poked at with the spear, it again.. is the message of sacrifice because of love. Is it not that hard to comprehend love ?
I agree tat being pierced by nails or poke by spears is painful. And now there r already tons of people who crucified themselves during good friday or christmas. U claim jesus die for us. But the definition of die, is never to exist anymore. Tat is the important part. If he die for just 3 days and wake up, I call tat more of a long sleep. If u talk about love, I find Lim Bo Seng who die in torture without revealing names more noble. He really die, and I believe torture is more painful than crucifix. Furthermore the reason why he die is simply... non logical... It is not like fighting a difficult war to appease another being, or there r no other circumstances, or tis is the only way... he die simply to satisfy his funny ego (god). He could just simply forgive. But he chose to kill himself to forgive. It is like I am angry with a friend and I forgive him by cutting myself with a knife. I might as well just forgive without cutting and cut down on the drama
Originally posted by Fairyfairy86:jesus went through hell for us, why he said those who do not believe in god will be sent to hell.
HIS LOVE IS WITH CONDITION : MUST BELIEVE IN HIM OR ELSE WILL BE SENT TO HELL. THIS IS NOT TRUE LOVE.
THIS IS TRUE LOVE :
it is unlike a mother's love which is unconditioned. a mother will love her child no matter how disobedience, how ugly or the whole world may not like her child but she will stand by her child no matter what happen.
Though I am out of the christian nonsense, but rejecting God is somehow like rejecting your parents and being unfillial to them according to the BIBLE/
If u reject the bible, according to the quran or other scripture, u have woken up and become enlightened.
Originally posted by reservistsianz:Because historically and with evidence of tampering. Constantine himself said it. It is known. It was recorded thats why i understood it. Someone mentioned constantine in this thread too. Even if it is not complete, the message remains.
U r not wrong here. There r many instances where the bible undergoes censorship and selection where people use their biaseness to pick whatever they like to be included. Then it comes to my previous point again. The message of christainity is heavily skewed to one of 2 lines in the bible while completely ignoring other lines. Lets focus only on the 4 books that describe jesus. Jesus stated tat everyone must follow the old laws. He stated tat the rich must give up all his wealth before he could join christainity. And there is one line tat says believe in jesus is all tat is needed. And surprisingly, they just choose tat line for the direction of christianity. It depend on one or two line only. And tis message could be modified or added in. Wat u follow may be completely different from the intended message.
See how u feel when are nailed up the cross, whether u are a willing or not. It is him sacrificing for us. Do u want to do it ? If to sacrifice so much, thorns on the head, carrying the cross, getting poked at with the spear, it again.. is the message of sacrifice because of love. Is it not that hard to comprehend love ?
I agree tat being pierced by nails or poke by spears is painful. And now there r already tons of people who crucified themselves during good friday or christmas. U claim jesus die for us. But the definition of die, is never to exist anymore. Tat is the important part. If he die for just 3 days and wake up, I call tat more of a long sleep. If u talk about love, I find Lim Bo Seng who die in torture without revealing names more noble. He really die, and I believe torture is more painful than crucifix. Furthermore the reason why he die is simply... non logical... It is not like fighting a difficult war to appease another being, or there r no other circumstances, or tis is the only way... he die simply to satisfy his funny ego (god). He could just simply forgive. But he chose to kill himself to forgive. It is like I am angry with a friend and I forgive him by cutting myself with a knife. I might as well just forgive without cutting and cut down on the drama
Like i said, i agree and understand your skepticism. Thats why, in the end of the day, we learn its message. Sometimes , Christians are quick to condemn others, but they took it too literally. Its the failure in thier part of the understanding, and thier pastor or cell group leaders has failed to properly send the message out to direct and correct them.
He died because he was pronounced, dead. In Roman law, the roman soldiers overseeing the cruxification , if not dead, they had to break the persons legs, to ensure they are dead. Equally for the soldiers who oversee the cruxification has to ensure Jesus is dead. Hence he has to be totally dead for them not to break his legs
U have to understand that , Lim Bo Seng totally died. How are so sure Cruxification is less torturous. We are talking about nailed, the weight of your body is being held by big nails... under the sun. Slow.. dying from dusk till dawn. Torture for Lim Bo Seng can be equally as painful. But as noble as it sounds. he did not live the life of Jesus. Its not about appeasing other beings n gods. Its about dying to show the world that this is the kind of love, someone willing to die for you, to bridge between God n Man. Instead of going through priests everytime u want to seek forgiveness like the old testament.
You cannot equate his sacrifice by saying u cut urself by being angry. The message u get is totally wrong. Its about forgiveness. Turn the other cheek when u ar slapped.
So in the end, u choose to believe the message, whether it is paul's message, constantine's message or john's message. U just believe the message should be true. Ok lor
I agree with your interpretation of death, which is medical death. But the scary thing about death, is not to live anymore. It is imagining u cannot drink, cannot laugh, cannot be with you loved one and all tat is left is gradually being forgotten. But tat does not happen for christ. He just reach a serious sleep state and wake up three days later, being with his loved one and could enjoy himself ater tat. His death is not scary at all. It is more like a deep sleep. People do tat when they go through severe surgery and sleep for 3 days straight. Think of the final bottomline. Wat is the physical differences to the individual between sleeping for 3 days and dead for just three days.
And the intention of the death is really just glorified... u say to bridge the distance between man and god etc etc but this distance is self imposed by god in the first placed. He could simply close tis gap without anyone dying. But he chose to kill himself for it. It is funny u see.
The analogy about cutting oneself is to show the whole reason for christ death is senseless... he do it to satisfy himself. It is not about appeasing someone beyond his control but for himself. Forgiveness do not require physical death of yourself. Forgiveness is just a mental state. U could achieve tat without doing anything physical
I believe in the message. The message of forgiveness, love, compassion, and all that good stuff. Why is it so hard to understand the message ? Fearing the divine being, and try to live a life of Jesus's life, to benefit not myself but the whole world.
That ressurection gives u the hope, it tells you that, after you are dead, you are no longer trapped in this physical body and you said about joining your loved ones, thats where u get to meet them. Is that not what u would want ? Thats hs whole idea. If you all believe, after leaving this place, you will see your loved ones again. Get it ?
U have to understand that God dont just CLOSE the gap. If he did so, where is Jesus's message of love and compassion ? Do u even know the inner workins of God ? The whole idea of his death is to bring about the changes from the Old to New testament. A living God. His message now.. in our world that needs it more, is love and compassion. If all christians live the life of Jesus's love, what more can i say ? National Aid organisations driven by the same Protestent faith of Love to those that need is the driving force. Can u see the connections now. Is it not good ?
Your analogy is not correct. I can give a similiar analogy, of you doing harm to me, but i push you out of the way of an incoming car n get myself killed. Its the message of forgiveness and love.... sigh...
Self-loving and sacrifice it is THAT ACT of self sacrifice and love. Its not about the concept of the mental state, its his ability after all he has gone through and the way he went out.
U can believe in the message. U believe something good is gonna come, positive compassion etc etc. For me I believe in wat is more true and wat is more believable. There r many passages in the bible tat express doubts, historically, scientifically, loically and itslf contradictory. I find tat no matter how positive it sounds and how I want to believe in it, it doesn't meake sense means it doesn't make sense. The truth may not be a rosy garden but a terrible reality. But the truth is the path u have to go no matter how u wish otherwise.
If u talk about after death, u get to see your love one etc. Of course I would love to have an afterlife. Who really like to just die and drop dead ? But the fact is, life is cruel. Nobody see heaven or hell or anything. Why believe we should have an afterlife ? I would love to wake up in the morning and become a handsome millionaire with lots of gorgeous babes around. But the fact, and the route I have to go, is cruel and I have to work and suffer and get enough to live by. U do not choose the reality u wanna live. U believe something so faithfully doesn't make it true
And the message u interpreted from your religion is love and compassion etc.. but they also bring segregation and hardline conversion as well as blind faith and rejecting scientific knowledge. U know islam is all about peace as well.
For your analogy, there is something which is beyond your control, and tat is the car driving madly. If christ sacrifice himself because there is something beyond him, then I can believe tat is noble. But for christ case, everything is under his control. There is no car driving crazily. There is no force beyond him. it is like u throwing yourself to a parked car so u could forgive me. Isn't tat illogical ?
Originally posted by reservistsianz:U can believe in the message. U believe something good is gonna come, positive compassion etc etc. For me I believe in wat is more true and wat is more believable. There r many passages in the bible tat express doubts, historically, scientifically, loically and itslf contradictory. I find tat no matter how positive it sounds and how I want to believe in it, it doesn't meake sense means it doesn't make sense. The truth may not be a rosy garden but a terrible reality. But the truth is the path u have to go no matter how u wish otherwise.
If u talk about after death, u get to see your love one etc. Of course I would love to have an afterlife. Who really like to just die and drop dead ? But the fact is, life is cruel. Nobody see heaven or hell or anything. Why believe we should have an afterlife ? I would love to wake up in the morning and become a handsome millionaire with lots of gorgeous babes around. But the fact, and the route I have to go, is cruel and I have to work and suffer and get enough to live by. U do not choose the reality u wanna live. U believe something so faithfully doesn't make it true
And the message u interpreted from your religion is love and compassion etc.. but they also bring segregation and hardline conversion as well as blind faith and rejecting scientific knowledge. U know islam is all about peace as well.
For your analogy, there is something which is beyond your control, and tat is the car driving madly. If christ sacrifice himself because there is something beyond him, then I can believe tat is noble. But for christ case, everything is under his control. There is no car driving crazily. There is no force beyond him. it is like u throwing yourself to a parked car so u could forgive me. Isn't tat illogical ?
Thats why u have a thing called FAITH. You dont run around with an AK - 47 because u do not believe in hell or heaven.
If you do not believe, it is fine. Just a simple question. Have u read the entire bible ?
There are fundamentalists and liberalists. Like i stated in previous posts... because they are also close and narrow minded in their interpretations and totally take everything literally and totally reject science. Do i look like a hardline extremist ? The only thing that annoys me and i come in is when you guys condemn Christians and Christianity AS A WHOLE. And thats like going to a coffee shop and i say.. SINGAPOREANS are STUPID. How do u feel? Maybe some or most are stupid.. but definately not ALL are stupid right ?
He is God, he KNOWS, and he knows what he needs to do. Have u even read the bible regarding his final days? He wants to remain on this earth as much as he loved the people around him. But he knows what he has to do. He knows the inevitable death. Knowing ur own death, and how brutally painful it will end.But unlike us , throwing ourselves at a parked car is NOT going to forgive anyone. So what purpose is that ?
Why would i throw myself at a parked car to forgive u? Do u even know ur analogy to this ? We have love and compassion doesnt we are stupid and dumb.
There is a thing call faith, and it is the thing tat led people into being cheated. I do not run around with an Ak 47 because I believe wat is like living in a society and how people living together should act. In fact I see religious extremist being the one running around with AK 47
And for your question, yes I have read the entire bible. Did I give an idea tat I have poor understanding of the bible ?
Well I do not agree tat people should stereotype and I agree tat christians do not have to be stupid.
In christianity, god and jesus and the holy spirit r the same thing. He says he love earth, know his death and how it will end (it ends with him being in heaven) but who is the one forcing him to die ? God. And god is him. He could just forgive but he chose to kill himself before he forgive. If u think tat throwing yourself at a parked car so we can forgive other is stupid... but tat is wat exactly happened for christ...
The person that get cheated is his own choice. Your daily life includes all matters of faith. Your faith in the pilot not crashing the plane, your faith in your own ability to comprehend the concept of science. But Faith can be blind faith. and can be informed faith. If you choose to totally follow blindly, definately u risk the totally cheated. Like wise, as informed as you are, you risk not following what you have faith in. Its a double edged sword.
Why does one say he is lack of faith, is mere because he lacks faith, or understanding.
Yes u did give an idea that u have poor understanding of the Bible because of ur statements regarding Jesus and Genesis and not to mention the few verses you quote only. Since u have read it, then i would expect u to be able to understand the concept of love . But you dont seem to understand Jesus's love, and your analogies of 'forgiveness' and self-sacrifice is just so off. Hence seriously have my doubts. But i just have to take it on face value that u did read the entire Bible. Because for your truth u have to prove it, and in my mind you did not. But i will take into faith and an open mind that u did even though many things does not add up. But nevertheless i believe you.
The bible says they are same yet different. And u read the entire Bible ?
The Bible said, Father Son and Holy Spirit. U have to understand the concept of Father n Son. When he was born on this earth, he was AS human as anyone. No knowledge, NADA. he like everyone has to have strong faith, to PRAY to God. He does not have BOTH the minds of God and Jesus, He is the Son of God and is Jesus. You are bring The Father , The Son and Holy Spirit down to ur level and saying God is Jesus and they both share the same mind, but in fact, both are actually in thier own individual state of mind. If He is God himself, why would he still need to pray ? He would just command and do so as he pleases, because he IS God. But He is NOT truly God himself.