then we will fight him and have our own guantanamo bay
Originally posted by ThunderFbolt:Ooo... long post... okay, let me try...
1. regardless of whether days in 1st chapter of Genesis refer to actual 24 hours or millions of years, the time line is still wrong. The Genesis 1 creation account conflicts with the order of events that are known to science. In Genesis, the earth is created before light and stars, birds and whales before reptiles and insects, and flowering plants before any animals. The order of events known from science is just the opposite. (1:1-2:3) God creates light and separates light from darkness, and day from night, on the first day. Yet he didn't make the light producing objects (the sun and the stars) until the fourth day (1:14-19). Not to mention by the 2nd or 3rd day the time line should already be 24 hours to a day, since that was when God supposed already created the Earth.
2. A temporary flood on Earth is possible. A flood lasting 150+ days covering the highest mountains of the highest peaks is bullshit. There isn't enough water on Earth to cover up to the height of Bukit Timah Hill.
Also, isn't it strange that in Chap 1 he kept saying everything was good, and in Chap 6-7 he said everything was fucked up?
Noah sent out a dove to see if the waters have gone down. The dove returned with an olive branch. Wouldn't all the olive trees be dead being under water for 150+ days?
And... I remember my grandmum telling me that during every eclipse, one has to pick up pots and pans and bang away as loud as possible to scare away the dog of Er Lang Shen, who was eating the moon. And everytime up till today the moon survives! Does that signify the existance of Er Lang Shen's dog?
Do you consider yourself rational to believe that what you've read about the bible is not correct?
Or did you just copied and pasted from some self- proclaimed atheist websites?
Originally posted by googoomuck:Do you consider yourself rational to believe that what you've read about the bible is not correct?
Or did you just copied and pasted from some self- proclaimed atheist websites?
yes, i do. obviously, i had to read the ideas before understanding them and hence i knew where to copy and paste parts of them in my reply to Fortmax777's post, but as each answer was targetted to each point...of course, my evaluation is my own.
please, if you may, to counter these views.
and i am surprised that you would ask such a question to me and not to Fortmax777, in that if he considers himself rational to believe that what he read about the bible is correct, or he just copied and pasted from some self-proclaimed christian website. it seems to be a cynical remark to me.
of course, if that was not your intent, i do apologize.
Originally posted by ThunderFbolt:yes, i do. obviously, i had to read the ideas before understanding them and hence i knew where to copy and paste parts of them in my reply to Fortmax777's post, but as each answer was targetted to each point...of course, my evaluation is my own.
please, if you may, to counter these views.
and i am surprised that you would ask such a question to me and not to Fortmax777, in that if he considers himself rational to believe that what he read about the bible is correct, or he just copied and pasted from some self-proclaimed christian website. it seems to be a cynical remark to me.
of course, if that was not your intent, i do apologize.
If the bible says it, then that's it. If God can create the heavens and earth, light and darkness and everything in the begining, what is it that you think he cannot do?
If the bible did not explain the how or why, how else would you expect the believers to know.
Human intelligence is limited to understand the work of a creator.
The astrophysicists, cosmologists or astronomers are considered rational beings because of their intelligence.
One physicist said," When confronted with the order and beauty of the universe and the strange coincidences of nature, it's very tempting to take the leap of faith from science into religion. I'm sure many physicists want to. I only wish they would admit it"
Who else is more rational than these scientists?
Originally posted by googoomuck:If the bible says it, then that's it. If God can create the heavens and earth, light and darkness and everything in the begining, what is it that you think he cannot do?
If the bible did not explain the how or why, how else would you expect the believers to know.
Human intelligence is limited to understand the work of a creator.
The astrophysicists, cosmologists or astronomers are considered rational beings because of their intelligence.
One physicist said," When confronted with the order and beauty of the universe and the strange coincidences of nature, it's very tempting to take the leap of faith from science into religion. I'm sure many physicists want to. I only wish they would admit it"
Who else is more rational than these scientists?
There is something He cannot do, He can't change the unbelievers to believers.
(argh, why can't the world be quiet.... this topic has become warground)
Oh yeah, martial go go go. I support your idea as well. Jesus Christ is the Son of God the Almighty! He reigns forevermore. Don't worry, even with a billion non-believers going against us, we won't lose, cos "When God is for us, who can be against us? - Romans 8:31"
Originally posted by googoomuck:If the bible says it, then that's it. If God can create the heavens and earth, light and darkness and everything in the begining, what is it that you think he cannot do?
If the bible did not explain the how or why, how else would you expect the believers to know.
Human intelligence is limited to understand the work of a creator.
The astrophysicists, cosmologists or astronomers are considered rational beings because of their intelligence.
One physicist said," When confronted with the order and beauty of the universe and the strange coincidences of nature, it's very tempting to take the leap of faith from science into religion. I'm sure many physicists want to. I only wish they would admit it"
Who else is more rational than these scientists?
he can't make a rock so heavy than he can't lift it it up i suppose. and that is only an assumption that there is a God that created the universe, written in a book which it itself says it's true.
a long time ago, people also believed that a Sun God rode the chariot of fire across the sky everyday, and hence why the Sun moves across the sky. people also believed that there was a pretty lady goddess with a cute rabbit living on the moon. however, while there are probably people out there still believing such stories, we know them to be false. why? it is because these stories were created to explain the unknown before they were studied.
notice how the Christian god in this case is seen to be the creator of everything and nothing. is he/she hence the god of nothing but of knowledge as yet unknown?
as to human intel being limited, why do you assume so?
and while i agree with you that scientists are rational, i believe you misunderstand the purpose of science today. it is not to fight the petty arguments between religion and nonreligion, but to attain a better understanding of the natural world. science having facts that back-up either for or against religion is just a boon.
Originally posted by googoomuck:If the bible says it, then that's it. If God can create the heavens and earth, light and darkness and everything in the begining, what is it that you think he cannot do?
If the bible did not explain the how or why, how else would you expect the believers to know.
Human intelligence is limited to understand the work of a creator.
The astrophysicists, cosmologists or astronomers are considered rational beings because of their intelligence.
One physicist said," When confronted with the order and beauty of the universe and the strange coincidences of nature, it's very tempting to take the leap of faith from science into religion. I'm sure many physicists want to. I only wish they would admit it"
Who else is more rational than these scientists?
googoomuck,
there is really no point using prominent or obscure physicists to thumb down the atheist here. We may not be smarter than them, but I am sure to tell you I am not hallucinating. I am sure the rest of the atheists here will say the same thing too.
We do not live each day thinking that we can meet god after our death.
laffin
"when one believes in a false idea, it is called hallucination. When many believe in a same false idea, it is called religion."
Originally posted by EchoStretch:(argh, why can't the world be quiet.... this topic has become warground)
Oh yeah, martial go go go. I support your idea as well. Jesus Christ is the Son of God the Almighty! He reigns forevermore. Don't worry, even with a billion non-believers going against us, we won't lose, cos "When God is for us, who can be against us? - Romans 8:31"
(because God made it that way =) )
don't forget the Crusades, where Christians lost to the Muslims. =)
hmm... actually thinking about it, Muslims win plenty of wars. Maybe that is a sign that Islam is the right religion to believe in? =P
Originally posted by laffin123:googoomuck,
there is really no point using prominent or obscure physicists to thumb down the atheist here. We may not be smarter than them, but I am sure to tell you I am not hallucinating. I am sure the rest of the atheists here will say the same thing too.
We do not live each day thinking that we can meet god after our death.
laffin
"when one believes in a false idea, it is called hallucination. When many believe in a same false idea, it is called religion."
There's a point.
Since you are into science, who is more rational in reasoning then the scientists? You are the one who believe in their discoveries or theories.
Originally posted by laffin123:googoomuck,
there is really no point using prominent or obscure physicists to thumb down the atheist here. We may not be smarter than them, but I am sure to tell you I am not hallucinating. I am sure the rest of the atheists here will say the same thing too.
We do not live each day thinking that we can meet god after our death.
laffin
"when one believes in a false idea, it is called hallucination. When many believe in a same false idea, it is called religion."
well, everyone does need to keep an open mind about religions and other people's beliefs. what is important is to try to have a better understanding of each religion and then comes to his/her own conclusion of the matter.i do have a very dear friend of mine who studies religion and philosophy to a great extent, and she believes in Buddhism. discussions do get awesome though. =)
and you must admit that religious groups do help others all around the world. though it does make you wonder if they would help anyway regardless of their religious affliation.
Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:There is something He cannot do, He can't change the unbelievers to believers.
no, i'm dead sure he can. btw, if you're speaking in context of mass change, then yes, my believe and reply is he can. on the other hand, if you're talking about converting individual non-believers to being christians, hey why not... you mean there's no one on earth who's born non-christian and die christian? I already know some people in my church who are new believers.
Originally posted by googoomuck:There's a point.
Since you are into science, who is more rational in reasoning then the scientists? You are the one who believe in their discoveries or theories.
people generally believe in scientists because their discoveries can be backed up and their experiments repeated. religion, however, is based faith and believing that a claim to be true without any evidence whatsoever. hence the criticism toward all religions.
Originally posted by googoomuck:There's a point.
Since you are into science, who is more rational in reasoning then the scientists? You are the one who believe in their discoveries or theories.
You can add one more line (in blue below) in your previous reply:
Since you are into science, who is more rational in reasoning then the scientists? You are the one who believe in their discoveries or theories. Science is evolving and advancing, and the scientist tomorrow will bring new insight and we can un-learn and learn again.
laffin
Originally posted by Dawnfirstlight:There is something He cannot do, He can't change the unbelievers to believers.
There's free will.
Do you mean He won't change unbelievers into believers?
Let's assume that you have children. Do you buy them out with money to respect you as a father or do you prefer their recpect for you to come from their hearts?
Originally posted by ThunderFbolt:(because God made it that way =) )
don't forget the Crusades, where Christians lost to the Muslims. =)
hmm... actually thinking about it, Muslims win plenty of wars. Maybe that is a sign that Islam is the right religion to believe in? =P
Nah, they can win a hundred physical wars, and kill all christians, but so what? We are His sheep and he is our Shepherd. God is forever living and in reign. Thats no excuse...
Originally posted by googoomuck:There's free will.
Do you mean He won't change unbelievers into believers?
Let's assume that you have children. Do you buy them out with money to respect you as a father or do you prefer their recpect for you to come from their hearts?
Of course I would prefer my children to respect me from their hearts (or conscience, or brains, whatever). However, I don't go condemning the children who don't respect me to the pits of Hell for all eternity. That isn't being a good father.
Originally posted by EchoStretch:Nah, they can win a hundred physical wars, and kill all christians, but so what? We are His sheep and he is our Shepherd. God is forever living and in reign. Thats no excuse...
Umm... you do know that the Islamic Allah and Christian God and Jewish Yahweh refer to the same god right? What does that say about being your shepherd?
If u guys read the bible carefully enough , Abraham was supposed to have one son, but instead, he had two. Another from the servant girl. God has warned him, and his lack of faith of his old wife not being able to bear any children. N told Abraham that one son will have the riches of the earth.. while the other... something else.. forgot what was the specific wording.
So, God told him that for his sins, the generation of both his sons will go thier seperate ways, n there u have it. Fast forward present day.
BOOM
Oil rich Muslim nations, vs technological powerful west.
Anyways, those that dont belive dont believe la. No need try n convince those that wont believe. Its like those that want proof of miracles, when miracles are happening everyday, ever small or big, just not as OOH AAH as back in old testament, come one even with such massive ridiculous miracles happening back in the day.. thier faith still falters. Thats human nature man.... because if one refuses to see the miracles or believe, he just wont see it because he just dont believe. If he dont believe he wont see , wont see further convinces him that it doesnt exist even if it exists.
If i am wrong and there is no God, i die.. i become part of the earth. Big win for the atheists n other religions.. *clap clap* thats just about it. At least i try to live the life of a true Christian and its no wrong or harm in that.U dont see us coming to torch ur buildings n jihad ur ass right? But if i am right... lol.. i know where i am going ;p
Originally posted by ThunderFbolt:well, everyone does need to keep an open mind about religions and other people's beliefs. what is important is to try to have a better understanding of each religion and then comes to his/her own conclusion of the matter.i do have a very dear friend of mine who studies religion and philosophy to a great extent, and she believes in Buddhism. discussions do get awesome though. =)
and you must admit that religious groups do help others all around the world. though it does make you wonder if they would help anyway regardless of their religious affliation.
Yes I agree, keeping an open mind and learn about the high and low points of religions.
I studied Buddhism too. If we remove the reincarnation and 'seeing past life on Enlightenment' idea, I think Buddhism teach people how to lead a wholesome life. It is nicer this way.
laffin
Originally posted by BadzMaro:If i am wrong and there is no God, i die.. i become part of the earth. Big win for the atheists n other religions.. *clap clap* thats just about it. At least i try to live the life of a true Christian and its no wrong or harm in that.U dont see us coming to torch ur buildings n jihad ur ass right? But if i am right... lol.. i know where i am going ;p
i understand your reasoning, which is also thought of before and named Pascal's wager.
however, i would like to point out 2 flaws.
1. how do you know that Christianity is the true religion? there are so many out there, what if your choice is wrong? if you chose the wrong one, would the right one send you to hell anyway? then your years of supporting the wrong god is wasted.
2. if this is why you chose the religion that you are in, even if you are right in choice of god and religion, would god take you into heaven just because you support him due to a bet that he exists? would he not be able to see what your intentions are for choosing him?
I am not saying to go against religion though, just to choose a religion for the right reasons.
simply,
if you believe and engage in a true and active personal relationship and encounter with God, you have gotten what Christianity is all about. Christianity isnt about religion, its about choosing to walk with God into eternity. it isnt about a set of rules. these rules are just there to follow the way God expects us to follow. its like we get to get married, we don't have to get married. going to church, is communion with a body of people that can strengthen and edify your Spirit and to minister to your needs, God saw the importance in that, as well as a channel to be a vessel to minister to the rest of the world. Believe me, everyone has needs as long as we are human.
go on youtube, search about different video testimonies of encounters of God. there's so many archaic facts that has been dugged out, so many signs and wonders happening day after day. people being raised from the dead almost everyday in the world. the Bible mentioned so many prophesies in the old testament relating to the coming of the Messiah, Jesus and all came true when he was born.
but why people do not believe?
Because they choose not to. God placed us here for us to choose, sadly Man became to selfcentered to grasp that. atheists and antichrists and best cults, all have been stated in the Bible which was written long before our time. predictions that people become more wicked and more disasters that God allows in is coming to past. what you tell me the Bible says isn't true? if you believe that Bible is made up by people, believe you me everything in this world is written by people. but the Bible is a Book which has so much Truth in it, if you go on and research about it. there are flaws in Man but God is perfect. A book this perfect is definitely God-inspired.
i chose not to throw verses in the Bible to relate to a non-Christian and people who believe the Bible is just a book made up by people to think about what I've said. come and find a loving and accepting graceful encounter which just sets you free in peace. when you get it, you'll truly know what true freedom is (: i've found it and i'm open to share it (:
Originally posted by ThunderFbolt:1. how do you know that Christianity is the true religion? there are so many out there, what if your choice is wrong? if you chose the wrong one, would the right one send you to hell anyway? then your years of supporting the wrong god is wasted.
I believe it because Jesus said, " I am The Way, The Truth and The Life, no one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6.
Originally posted by .SBS9888Y.:simply,
if you believe and engage in a true and active personal relationship and encounter with God, you have gotten what Christianity is all about. Christianity isnt about religion, its about choosing to walk with God into eternity. it isnt about a set of rules. these rules are just there to follow the way God expects us to follow. its like we get to get married, we don't have to get married. going to church, is communion with a body of people that can strengthen and edify your Spirit and to minister to your needs, God saw the importance in that, as well as a channel to be a vessel to minister to the rest of the world. Believe me, everyone has needs as long as we are human.
go on youtube, search about different video testimonies of encounters of God. there's so many archaic facts that has been dugged out, so many signs and wonders happening day after day. people being raised from the dead almost everyday in the world. the Bible mentioned so many prophesies in the old testament relating to the coming of the Messiah, Jesus and all came true when he was born.
but why people do not believe?
Because they choose not to. God placed us here for us to choose, sadly Man became to selfcentered to grasp that. atheists and antichrists and best cults, all have been stated in the Bible which was written long before our time. predictions that people become more wicked and more disasters that God allows in is coming to past. what you tell me the Bible says isn't true? if you believe that Bible is made up by people, believe you me everything in this world is written by people. but the Bible is a Book which has so much Truth in it, if you go on and research about it. there are flaws in Man but God is perfect. A book this perfect is definitely God-inspired.
i chose not to throw verses in the Bible to relate to a non-Christian and people who believe the Bible is just a book made up by people to think about what I've said. come and find a loving and accepting graceful encounter which just sets you free in peace. when you get it, you'll truly know what true freedom is (: i've found it and i'm open to share it (:
i agree. i find nothing wrong with doing what you believe in.
however, since we are all snooping around the forums looking for something interesting to discuss about, we might as well talk about something, right? and this subforum happens to be called Eternal Hope.... or else this subforum will be quite boring leh. =P
Originally posted by .SBS9888Y.:I believe it because Jesus said, " I am The Way, The Truth and The Life, no one comes to the Father except through me." John 14:6.
So did Buddha on his way to enlightenment, Mohammed as he preached through the nations, priests of Brahma as they went through their priestly-stuff. It's not new. It's like drinking Pepsi because of an ad saying Pepsi is better than Coke.