Originally posted by breytonhartge:very funny... eh.. same page twice... what a coincidence... hehe... how are you unker?
same-o, same-o....
got work, can wake up, can eat...
so your seng-lee booming hah?
i don't come here very much nowadays.... no point.
domon bro, so do u walk the same path as the belmonts? lol.
Originally posted by +Sikoyo+:domon bro, so do u walk the same path as the belmonts? lol.
belmont jewellery at raffles hotel there ar??hope to rob them though..
it is Mathias Cronqvist that draws me..chain wielding ape like man is not really my type..though i almost tried to weld a real chain whip..cant find the spike ball..
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
same-o, same-o....got work, can wake up, can eat...
so your seng-lee booming hah?
i don't come here very much nowadays.... no point.
seng-lee going ok lah... cannot complain
I kind of know what you mean.. but hey you have to give the younger ones the benefit of your experience right not unker?
Originally posted by +Sikoyo+:bro brey...sometimes i feel very puzzled after seeing a short debate between u & nove...
i gave u a simple answer of my version with regards to christianity, nove gave u lengthy answers via quotes from the bible. still u are not satisfy. so i presume the problem here doesn't lie with our answers. no offence, but u gave me a perception dat u are jus stubbornly refusing to accept answers dat are spiritually related to God.
but i do take my hats off u for 1 thing is dat ur arguments are so much more sensible & matured.
Errr... I sure hope that I am more sensibe and mature...it would be terrible if I went backwards... like when I first started here... so long ago... keke.
The problem is what is actually said in the bible vs what is acutally taught. Hope this makes sense to you.
No offense to nove, but his answers are always very wishy washy and to me seem to straddle the fence like having a leg in each camp and if you profess to believe then somewhere along the line you have to stand up for what you believe in.
Originally posted by breytonhartge:Errr... I sure hope that I am more sensibe and mature...it would be terrible if I went backwards... like when I first started here... so long ago... keke.
The problem is what is actually said in the bible vs what is acutally taught. Hope this makes sense to you.
No offense to nove, but his answers are always very wishy washy and to me seem to straddle the fence like having a leg in each camp and if you profess to believe then somewhere along the line you have to stand up for what you believe in.
hmm..brey has very good points though..in fact sensible and logical..bible vs being taught..so far in here..brey seems to know....
Originally posted by breytonhartge:Errr... I sure hope that I am more sensibe and mature...it would be terrible if I went backwards... like when I first started here... so long ago... keke.
The problem is what is actually said in the bible vs what is acutally taught. Hope this makes sense to you.
No offense to nove, but his answers are always very wishy washy and to me seem to straddle the fence like having a leg in each camp and if you profess to believe then somewhere along the line you have to stand up for what you believe in.
my answers may seems "wishy washy" to you and does not have "concrete" strength because i know that we Christians do not have all the answers. i cannot proof whether masturbation is wrong or if life after death = eternal sleep... i can only say in my opinion of 100% conviction (again i stressed, in my opinion) God is generous and merciful.
if you want answers with proof, i don't think anyone in this age has it. that is also the reason why in my earlier posts, "do not be bothered if Christians condemn anyone, who is a non-believer to hell" don't take it to heart even if they say your religion is satanic because i also cannot say we Christians are 100% right. i believe that God exist, with the angels and saints, with the Virgin Mother because she has answered prayers. (my mother-in law was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer. doctor told us 6 months max. we prayed and attended Novena and today she is still alive after 3 years)
i seriously frankly does not want to know the "dark secrets" the Church has been hiding. what's the point when God has shown His presence to me?
about what is written in the bible and taught otherwise? yes, i cannot find any text that claim life after death is purgatory or in paradise. you may have found evidence that the bible indicates that after death we are in deep sleep... but how am i to contest this with you when the whole Catholic Church taught that to us? that souls in purgatory requires our help and prayers to purify themselves and enter Heaven? i believe only the priests can answer your questions.
let me give you a link; Father Simon Pereira, one of Singapore's most respected priest and an outspoken advocate against distortion of the bible. i believe he'll be more than happy to answer all your question against the Catholic Church.
arent u all supposed to continue flaming TS?
Originally posted by novelltie:my answers may seems "wishy washy" to you and does not have "concrete" strength because i know that we Christians do not have all the answers. i cannot proof whether masturbation is wrong or if life after death = eternal sleep... i can only say in my opinion of 100% conviction (again i stressed, in my opinion) God is generous and merciful.
if you want answers with proof, i don't think anyone in this age has it. that is also the reason why in my earlier posts, "do not be bothered if Christians condemn anyone, who is a non-believer to hell" don't take it to heart even if they say your religion is satanic because i also cannot say we Christians are 100% right. i believe that God exist, with the angels and saints, with the Virgin Mother because she has answered prayers. (my mother-in law was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer. doctor told us 6 months max. we prayed and attended Novena and today she is still alive after 3 years)
i seriously frankly does not want to know the "dark secrets" the Church has been hiding. what's the point when God has shown His presence to me?
about what is written in the bible and taught otherwise? yes, i cannot find any text that claim life after death is purgatory or in paradise. you may have found evidence that the bible indicates that after death we are in deep sleep... but how am i to contest this with you when the whole Catholic Church taught that to us? that souls in purgatory requires our help and prayers to purify themselves and enter Heaven? i believe only the priests can answer your questions.
let me give you a link; Father Simon Pereira, one of Singapore's most respected priest and an outspoken advocate against distortion of the bible. i believe he'll be more than happy to answer all your question against the Catholic Church.
Nove, don't just keep pushing the responsibility of knowing about your faith to someone else, you have to do the hard yards for yourself, don't rely on what people say is right, for it may not be. The bible encourages us to study and show ourselves approved.
2Tim2:15
Be diligent to present yourself approved to G_d, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Study for yourself so that you can rightly discern the truth. Why find out about dark secrets? So that you can then know the truth and then make an informed decision whether it is right or wrong according to the bible.
Originally posted by Suffocate:Nowadays got alot of christian parents like to force their kids to go to church when they are still very young.
They give alot of self righteous and crap reasons such as the church will teach their children to be good boy/girl lah, it is better for their kids to spend time in church than mix with bad company of friends lah etc etc.
Think about these poor kids who are so young and innocent and being forced to go to church and get brainwashed into believing christanity.
When these kids grow up and realise that all these are just bullshit, they decided not to go to church anymore.
Than these parents gangup with the church pastors and cell group leaders to try to con their kids to go back to church. These parents come out with alot of lame reasons to try to trick their kids to go back to church like you are backsliding lah, if you don"t go to church GOD will stop blessing you lah etc etc.
Haiz. When will these parents grow up? They want to go to church is their own problem lah. Why want to force and brainwash their kids to go to church also?
Maybe when you become a parent yourself, you will have the answers to your questions... ; )
Originally posted by breytonhartge:Errr... I sure hope that I am more sensibe and mature...it would be terrible if I went backwards... like when I first started here... so long ago... keke.
The problem is what is actually said in the bible vs what is acutally taught. Hope this makes sense to you.
No offense to nove, but his answers are always very wishy washy and to me seem to straddle the fence like having a leg in each camp and if you profess to believe then somewhere along the line you have to stand up for what you believe in.
I agree with u on wat is actually taught by man these days. i believe the original hebrew bible has been misquoted down the generations. it's like playing the passing message from frens to frens...i believed the gease of the original message would already be lost.
but dun u feel dat religion is all about faith & how much u believe in the God u worship? we can use logic to deal with matters dat are realistic & with a physical presense but wouldn't logic be the wrong key to answer spiritual matters?
You guys are pretty hard out. U guys catholic ?
Originally posted by domonkassyu:belmont jewellery at raffles hotel there ar??hope to rob them though..
it is Mathias Cronqvist that draws me..chain wielding ape like man is not really my type..though i almost tried to weld a real chain whip..cant find the spike ball..
i tried a leather whip but guess i dun hav the lost arts to handle them though i manage to break candles & lamps without getting any hearts. alucard inspires me & wielding a sword seems less of a hassle.
whoa whoa.. chill.. Just think that if I were a parent and Christian, I would want my child to be one as well as I believe it would be of help to my child to be guided spiritually and also by the people in the Church. But I guess some parents get desperate and say nasty things without going through their minds in hope of bringing their child into their fold like younger times when actually their child is not a kid anymore. So can't really blame them I guess.
One more thing. regarding all the interpretations of the holy scriptures of the different religions.. they are handed down generations through generations by MEN.. So no one really knows what is meant when the first scriptures are written. Unless someone cares to contend with it?
Originally posted by +Sikoyo+:I agree with u on wat is actually taught by man these days. i believe the original hebrew bible has been misquoted down the generations. it's like playing the passing message from frens to frens...i believed the gease of the original message would already be lost.
but dun u feel dat religion is all about faith & how much u believe in the God u worship? we can use logic to deal with matters dat are realistic & with a physical presense but wouldn't logic be the wrong key to answer spiritual matters?
Yet, in Yochanan 4:23-24 Yeshua said this:
23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Also in Yochanan 17:17-19 Yeshua prayed:
17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
In relation to spiritual matters we are asked to discern the truth, to worship in truth.
Yeshua said in Yochanan 8:31-32:
31 Then Yeshua said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
Yeshua asks that we abide in His word, which is the way of life for us.
Relationship with Yahweh vs religion about Yahweh are different things. I hope you see this.
Originally posted by breytonhartge:Yet, in Yochanan 4:23-24 Yeshua said this:
23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Also in Yochanan 17:17-19 Yeshua prayed:
17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
In relation to spiritual matters we are asked to discern the truth, to worship in truth.
Yeshua said in Yochanan 8:31-32:31 Then Yeshua said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
Yeshua asks that we abide in His word, which is the way of life for us.
Relationship with Yahweh vs religion about Yahweh are different things. I hope you see this.
Yup i get it. Though i mentioned religion in general, i have always treat Jesus as my friend/bro/shepherd. I talked to him often in prayer even at work, outside in public. When im angry, sad or happy i will talk to Him & share with Him my feelings & ask Him for guidance. If im lost & helpless, i'll ask Him to let His will be done on me. As sometimes i admit i do not know wat to say to Him at times. This is the relationship u mentioning right? Correct me if im wrong & naive as i believe being humble in life gets me far :)
Originally posted by BadzMaro:You guys are pretty hard out. U guys catholic ?
Never a moment less :)
to brey,
i am willing to help restart ur forum...no problem...but i have run out of topics to post in there...unless i repeat the same ones i posted few yrs back...
Originally posted by breytonhartge:Nove, don't just keep pushing the responsibility of knowing about your faith to someone else, you have to do the hard yards for yourself, don't rely on what people say is right, for it may not be. The bible encourages us to study and show ourselves approved.
2Tim2:15
Be diligent to present yourself approved to G_d, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Study for yourself so that you can rightly discern the truth. Why find out about dark secrets? So that you can then know the truth and then make an informed decision whether it is right or wrong according to the bible.
brey, friend... i'm not pushing away the responsibility but rather... what i've learnt, i've learnt from Father Simon Pereira. he was my Sunday Church teacher and whatever i've said to you comes from him. he is my source of knowledge and my mentor. i've studied the bible many times and somehow, it coincide with my faith and knowledge. yes, there were many questions and unclear message the Lord had written in the bible but if i were to question every ounce of it, what good will it be?
you asked me to study and discern the truth... friend, maybe you have lot of free time at your disposal but i do not have... and again, do i have the resources to seek the "dark secrets"? are you willing to sponsor my trip to Israel and Egypt or even Italy? you may say i am blinded by facades and lies that does not coincide with the Holy Bible, but again are you so sure of it yourself that your interpretation of "death = eternal sleep" is 100% accurate and true base on the bible.
i have only one conclusion of why the Catholic Church teaches us that when we die, we enter in Heaven or Purgatory to be cleanse... cos' they have found out from the bible, they have interprete from the bible, based on their deductions and beliefs plus the endorsement of the Pope and the Bishops and whatever authority God has given them and maybe even hints from Mother Mary when she appeared in Fatimah to the 3 children that it is true. you can debate this, you can contest this, i'm not saying you aren't liable to... you have the very right to do so but you asking me to question the teachings of the Catholic Church is akin to in my opinion treachery. call it blind faith, call it self-delusional but frankly, even if Da Vinci Code is true and Jesus married Mary of Magdalene, have a lineage of spawns, i do not care for i have experienced the love of God and the Virgin Mother... i have pleaded for the protection of St. Michael and it was bestowed to me.
what more do you wish from me then? when to me, facts do not always equal to faith. Science has opened a question for all; why wasn't the dinosaurs indicated in the Holy Bible as Adam and Eve were the first? there was no collection of wild giant beasts but a serpent when dinosaurs came first? when queried, i just shrugged it off because there is no way i can out-talk a scientist and we have factual proof of dinosaurs fossils. in the end, you are using facts on this issue which in my opinion, you are very wise and very academic but then; faith is not based on facts and written history based on a thousand year old text. faith is believing what is unseen and unproven.
the most debated query of all which is non religious; do ghost exist? can science prove it? i have personally encountered spirits before. my mother was possessed by a spirit before. my sister could see spirits before when she was younger. she told me one lady spirit was walking around the house without the lower part of her body. but can science prove the existence of the supernatural? how many of us wishes to explore and prove the existence in the first place; unless you are paid to do so...
so end of the day, i do understand your stand that the Bible indicated "this and that", why do the Church teach otherwise. as i've said, they may have interpreted the bible differently from you and i chose to believe them. simple as that.
Originally posted by breytonhartge:Yet, in Yochanan 4:23-24 Yeshua said this:
23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Also in Yochanan 17:17-19 Yeshua prayed:
17 Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified by the truth.
In relation to spiritual matters we are asked to discern the truth, to worship in truth.
Yeshua said in Yochanan 8:31-32:31 Then Yeshua said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
Yeshua asks that we abide in His word, which is the way of life for us.
Relationship with Yahweh vs religion about Yahweh are different things. I hope you see this.
again, your interpretation of the "truth" may not coincide with the "truth" others believe.
Originally posted by novelltie:again, your interpretation of the "truth" may not coincide with the "truth" others believe.
Yochanan 17:17 Yeshua says this:
Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth.
No interpretation needed Yeshua spells it out clearly for you. The word of G_d is truth.
The bible only says what the church wants it to say, as a justification for whatever they do. Priests absolving each other after murder in the middle ages? Non-heliocentric earth? It changes every time another thing in it is proven wrong.
Originally posted by novelltie:brey, friend... i'm not pushing away the responsibility but rather... what i've learnt, i've learnt from Father Simon Pereira. he was my Sunday Church teacher and whatever i've said to you comes from him. he is my source of knowledge and my mentor. i've studied the bible many times and somehow, it coincide with my faith and knowledge. yes, there were many questions and unclear message the Lord had written in the bible but if i were to question every ounce of it, what good will it be?
you asked me to study and discern the truth... friend, maybe you have lot of free time at your disposal but i do not have... and again, do i have the resources to seek the "dark secrets"? are you willing to sponsor my trip to Israel and Egypt or even Italy? you may say i am blinded by facades and lies that does not coincide with the Holy Bible, but again are you so sure of it yourself that your interpretation of "death = eternal sleep" is 100% accurate and true base on the bible.
i have only one conclusion of why the Catholic Church teaches us that when we die, we enter in Heaven or Purgatory to be cleanse... cos' they have found out from the bible, they have interprete from the bible, based on their deductions and beliefs plus the endorsement of the Pope and the Bishops and whatever authority God has given them and maybe even hints from Mother Mary when she appeared in Fatimah to the 3 children that it is true. you can debate this, you can contest this, i'm not saying you aren't liable to... you have the very right to do so but you asking me to question the teachings of the Catholic Church is akin to in my opinion treachery. call it blind faith, call it self-delusional but frankly, even if Da Vinci Code is true and Jesus married Mary of Magdalene, have a lineage of spawns, i do not care for i have experienced the love of God and the Virgin Mother... i have pleaded for the protection of St. Michael and it was bestowed to me.
what more do you wish from me then? when to me, facts do not always equal to faith. Science has opened a question for all; why wasn't the dinosaurs indicated in the Holy Bible as Adam and Eve were the first? there was no collection of wild giant beasts but a serpent when dinosaurs came first? when queried, i just shrugged it off because there is no way i can out-talk a scientist and we have factual proof of dinosaurs fossils. in the end, you are using facts on this issue which in my opinion, you are very wise and very academic but then; faith is not based on facts and written history based on a thousand year old text. faith is believing what is unseen and unproven.
the most debated query of all which is non religious; do ghost exist? can science prove it? i have personally encountered spirits before. my mother was possessed by a spirit before. my sister could see spirits before when she was younger. she told me one lady spirit was walking around the house without the lower part of her body. but can science prove the existence of the supernatural? how many of us wishes to explore and prove the existence in the first place; unless you are paid to do so...
so end of the day, i do understand your stand that the Bible indicated "this and that", why do the Church teach otherwise. as i've said, they may have interpreted the bible differently from you and i chose to believe them. simple as that.
Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received
the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day
to see if what Paul said was true.
Originally posted by breytonhartge:Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
we can argue and argue again about your translation and my beliefs. you can say our Catholic's teaching are wrong but does that does not change my beliefs. as i've said, this will not end; which is frankly boring me a little. you have rights to your beliefs and i have rights to my beliefs. you can say we are evil and cover each others' murder during the middle ages, fine so be it. i'm cool about it. if someone here is going to say we Catholics are actually a satanic cult for believing in Mother Mary, he's obliged to his opinion, which frankly does not affect us at all.
Shawn Wood of Seacost Church says it best;
"The problem is that we are spending too much time interpreting the Bible, and not letting it interpret us. The big problem with our understanding of God’s word is not an acedemic issue – it is moral."
you are here debating with me about the wrongs of our religion. i have no answers to your accusation because the doctrines are held in Italy and again, "the word of God is true"... yes but your interpretation may not be the true meaning God has intended for us... look, it will never end; your views and our views do not meet. you believe whatever what you wish to believe, i have no objections because from the beginning of the whole post, i have told everyone, "don't be swayed by others' opinions including Christians for you are free to have your own religion and beliefs."
i seriously advise you to give Father Simon a call if you wish to clarify about the "dead = deep sleep" issue for i'd rather have blind faith than question them. it was written in Catholic "law" that;
Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which We (The Church) have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith.
i rather not challenge for i believe in blind loyalty and faith.
Since there are so many so-called different interpretations of the Bible one complaint often voiced is that everyone has a different interpretation of the Bible. Because many people arrive at varying conclusions when they read the Bible, there is supposedly no way to arrive at a consensus. People point to the variety of denominations as an example that there can be no unanimity among Bible believers.
This idea neglects to take into account certain facts. The great majority of Bible readers have no problem agreeing on the Bible’s central teachings. Even those who do not believe the Bible to be true have no difficulty whatsoever discerning the main message.
Within all branches of Christianity, we find the same basic understanding as to what the Bible teaches. They usually accept the same creeds that assert such basic truths as that God made man in His image, with freedom of choice, and that man chose to rebel against God, thus bringing sin into the world. Moreover, God, because of His everlasting love, became a man in the person of Jesus Christ and died a substitutionary death on our behalf, paying the infinite penalty of sin. Men can have their relationship restored with God through placing their faith in Jesus Christ.
The Bible’s message is clear for those who will read it with an open mind and seek to understand its meaning. The problem comes when people attempt to make the Word fit their preconceived ideas. This is not the fault of the Bible, but of the people who attempt to force the Bible to say whatever they want it to say. Often the disagreement is not so much with the interpretation of the Scriptures, but with the application.