TNP: tell god that he is very very good
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Hi dumbdumb,
I know what you mean, but seems to me that there are already quite a number of fervent and knowledgeable Catholics on this board. And there are many Catholics I know who are really into their faith.
From some previous posts, I think you seemed to have had a few bad experiences with Catholics. Pity about this, for I'm sure that many people out there do experience a deep, personal relationship with our Lord through the Catholic Church.
And just to clarify, the bible is indeed the final authority, together with sacred tradition that has been passed down to us through the ages from our Lord. Put another way, Catholics believe that 'everything that is in the bible is true', as opposed to 'everything that is true is in the bible'.
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Originally posted by january:
Today, another girl who survive a medical problem using lung heart machine thank god for creating the miracle that saves her.
Well, as an atheist, what can i say. God is taking credit for nothing again. Come on, it people who invent the machine and the doctors who save her. I hope singapore govt and media can really educate the public masses the right thing and not to spread wrong beliefs in life.
WTH.
agreed
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Originally posted by Servant:
Hi dumbdumb,
I know what you mean, but seems to me that there are already quite a number of fervent and knowledgeable Catholics on this board. And there are many Catholics I know who are really into their faith.
From some previous posts, I think you seemed to have had a few bad experiences with Catholics. Pity about this, for I'm sure that many people out there do experience a deep, personal relationship with our Lord through the Catholic Church.
And just to clarify, the bible is indeed the final authority, together with sacred tradition that has been passed down to us through the ages from our Lord. Put another way, Catholics believe that 'everything that is in the bible is true', as opposed to 'everything that is true is in the bible'.
written by man, real?
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Originally posted by 2e3:
Hi, i'm a catholic and it is through my limited understanding that the story of adam and eve is but only a story used to teach us certain lessons. That it did not really happen? Can anyone clarify?
Yes and no. My understanding is that the Catholic Church teaches that the story of Adam and Eve is real but it did not necessarily occur in exactly the same way as that described in the book of Genesis. When reading and interpreting the bible, the Church teaches that we have to try to understand the meaning that the author meant to convey and not read eveything at 'face value'.
I believe that the Church has taught at least nine points that we need to believe about creation and Adam & Eve. They are:
- God created everything out of nothing at the beginning of time, including time itself.
- There was a special creation of man.
- Woman was created from man (in some manner).
- All humanity descended from this original single pair of human beings - Adam & Eve.
- Adam and Eve were created in a state of holiness, justice and immortality.
- God laid a divine commandment on them.
- Adam & Eve broke that commandment at the instigation of satan.
- Because of this disobedience, they lost their state of holiness, justice and immortality.
- There was a promise of a future redeemer or saviour.
The Church does not take a position on the 'how' and 'when' of creation as the book of Genesis was not meant to be a scientific treatise on creation. You are free to believe that the universe was created in six days or over billions of years, that a tree and apple was involved in Adam and Eve's breaking of God's command or something else, or that man evolved from apes, or not.
However, if you do subscribe to the theory that man evolved from apes, then you have to believe that at some point in time, God created souls for a single pair of these 'evolved apes' (Adam and Eve) and that we are all descended from that pair without exception. And for Catholic Christians, that also explains why mankind are born with original sin because we are all descended from Adam & Eve who disobeyed God.
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interesting ,god only make adam and eve.but where did their childern get their wife,ape monkey?not logical.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
if you're catholic, the bible should be the final authority of truth for you (i'm pretty sure the catholic church believes in creation, i'll be appalled if otherwise)
it's why sin came into the world etc, the flood, all of it, is truth for us.
or is Jesus' death on the cross a fairy tale for you too? then question is, if you don't believe that the bible holds the truth which sets you free, are you really saved on the basis of your confession of your faith (or lack of)?
it's good to find out more though, be convinced by your own findings. =) go attend some courses, ask your priests, ask your mentors etc.
i'm sorry, but i always get frustrated that how come the catholics i know personally don't seem to know why they're believers, or what they really believe.
it's a fine time to start figuring out your faith, because your salvation depends on what you believe is truth..
thanks for replying dumbdumb, sorry if my question came across as ignorant.
i do believe that the bible is the final authority, after all it is the word of God.
However do always take a step back and look, for sad but true, not everyone believes with the same faith and conviction as others. Sadly alot of church goers are just sunday catholics. most of them do it because they're been doing the same thing since young and were "forced" to go church along with their parents. Therefore without any interest one wouldn't be bothered to learn about the religion at all.
therefore it is our job to share our knowledge to try and share what little knowledge we have. Sure i have very little knowledge about the bible but i believe that doesn't make me any less "holy" as those who do. What i PERSONALLY believe in is that at the end its our very personal relationship with God that really matters. and thats whats pushing me to try and learn more about him through the bible and practices.
once again sorry if i sound ignorant asking stupid questions, but thats the only way i know in order to learn.
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oh yea and to reply to this thread topic. As i've said, after all that is said and done those who have experience a personal relationship with God will understand and give testimonial to what the girl have said.
its similar to the relationship between people, until we talk to that person, all our impression of him/her can only be based on other's stories, we can never make a accurate judgement till we personally talk to him/her.
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To reply to TS:
Today, another girl who survive a medical problem using lung heart machine thank god for creating the miracle that saves her.
Well, as an atheist, what can i say. God is taking credit for nothing again. Come on, it people who invent the machine and the doctors who save her. I hope singapore govt and media can really educate the public masses the right thing and not to spread wrong beliefs in life.
WTH.
1) If the girl believes that there is a God and that He creates a machine miracle to save her life, what is it to you?
2) If the girl were like you, an atheist, and thanked the doctors and the engineers for creating such a machine like that to save her life, what is it to you again?
It's her personal choice what to say when being interviewed, right? So if she believes in a God and you don't... What is it to you? Are you going to decide that she's wrong when giving such a response in an interview, and hence censor it if you think she says something wrong?
JY
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double post
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Originally posted by 2e3:
thanks for replying dumbdumb, sorry if my question came across as ignorant.
i do believe that the bible is the final authority, after all it is the word of God.
However do always take a step back and look, for sad but true, not everyone believes with the same faith and conviction as others. Sadly alot of church goers are just sunday catholics. most of them do it because they're been doing the same thing since young and were "forced" to go church along with their parents. Therefore without any interest one wouldn't be bothered to learn about the religion at all.
therefore it is our job to share our knowledge to try and share what little knowledge we have. Sure i have very little knowledge about the bible but i believe that doesn't make me any less "holy" as those who do. What i PERSONALLY believe in is that at the end its our very personal relationship with God that really matters. and thats whats pushing me to try and learn more about him through the bible and practices.
once again sorry if i sound ignorant asking stupid questions, but thats the only way i know in order to learn.
your question in a way was quite an assault, you said, the catholic churches teaches that Adam and Eve is just a fairy tale (of course i was really pissed of)
but yes i apologise, we're all here to learn through sharing. i hope you understand that Adam and Eve's "story" is real.
and yes, i am rather annoyed at most, not all catholics, but only about their flippant attitudes. there are a few astounding ones too. really encouraging, my friend's bf, he really reveres God. haha but he converted to anglican with his gf, because they both compromised on worship styles. since she came from charismatic side.
My understanding is that the Catholic Church teaches that the story of Adam and Eve is real but it did not necessarily occur in exactly the same way as that described in the book of Genesis. When reading and interpreting the bible, the Church teaches that we have to try to understand the meaning that the author meant to convey and not read eveything at 'face value'.
definitely. that's called reading in context. =)
but, i believe if God said in His word that He formed Adam out of the dust from the ground, it's very clear cut, it's not some metaphorical "dirt" etc. it's dirt, plain and simple
and if God says He made Eve from Adam's rib, we don't have to think it's some metaphorical "rib" etc.
so i don't really understand what you mean that the Catholic Church teaches that creation may not necessarily occur in exactly the same way as described in the book of Genesis. that's as good as saying the bible is incorrect and fallable.
what i understand from some bible study lessons, reading in context is about understanding the time, culture, and who are the people being addressed to etc, and not just read the verse and take it at face value.
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Originally posted by Joolead:
interesting ,god only make adam and eve.but where did their childern get their wife,ape monkey?not logical.
actually, they mated with each other. incest.
and before you start freaking out and scrubbing yourself in the toilet.. let me explain. =)
the law against incest was only introduced in the much later years, along with the other laws, like clean and unclean animals, what can be eaten, what cannot be eaten etc, during moses time.
and, of course, last time, nobody understood why, but with current scientific knowledge, we understand that the human DNA has been slowly losing information over the generations, that's why u notice that if you have an incesteous relationship, the offspring turns out to be a retard. or, if you have a relationship with someone from a different race altogether, the kid looks amazingly beautiful.
that's because the genetic pool of our current generation, are missing bits and pieces, especially within the same race, so ur missing parts in the gene pool isn't being filled up by your partner's gene material, because she may have that defect too, so that defect is being passed down.
but when God created adam and eve, their gene material is perfect and whole. so there was no risk when they had incesteous relationship. but because they introduced sin into the world, their gene material started to corrupt, but slowly. and over several generations, it became unsafe to have incesteous relationships, and God forbad it.
that's what i understand, some terms could be wrong, because i forgot, but the meaning is there la.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
... so i don't really understand what you mean that the Catholic Church teaches that creation may not necessarily occur in exactly the same way as described in the book of Genesis. that's as good as saying the bible is incorrect and fallable. ..
Yes, the bible is infallible if we properly understand the intended meanings being conveyed by the author.
What I'm trying to say is that the theological truths being conveyed by the author in the creation account are given in the nine points that were set-out. Beyond that, one is free to believe that the universe was created in 6 days or over billions of years, that man was fashioned out of the dirt of the ground or that he evolved from apes etc. Either way, it wouldn't contradict or detract from the truths being conveyed by the author and the bible's infallibility. (Of course, we could certainly believe that the universe was indeed created in six days, that man did not evolve from apes etc; that's perfectly fine.)
Things do not always have to occur exactly as what was written (universe created in six days, man created on the sixth day etc) as that would be reading Genesis at 'face value' and the author may not have meant it to be understood that way. After all, he did not set out to write a scientific treatise on creation as a term paper for a University course
.Originally posted by dumbdumb!:your question in a way was quite an assault, you said, the catholic churches teaches that Adam and Eve is just a fairy tale (of course i was really pissed of)
Actually, 2e3 did not say that the Catholic Church teaches that Adam and Eve is a fairy tale. What 2e3 said was that he/she was a Catholic and that it was his/her understanding that the story was a fairy tale
.We have to remember that the teachings of the Catholic Church are not always conveyed accurately or fully by what a particular person says or believes in. The same goes for me. Whilst I endeavour to put forward the official positions and teachings of the Church, I would readily admit that I might also be wrong in certain aspects or put points across poorly regarding Church teachings.
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Originally posted by Omnia:
Yes, the bible is infallible if we properly understand the intended meanings being conveyed by the author.
What I'm trying to say is that the theological truths being conveyed by the author in the creation account are given in the nine points that were set-out. Beyond that, one is free to believe that the universe was created in 6 days or over billions of years, that man was fashioned out of the dirt of the ground or that he evolved from apes etc. Either way, it wouldn't contradict or detract from the truths being conveyed by the author and the bible's infallibility. (Of course, we could certainly believe that the universe was indeed created in six days, that man did not evolve from apes etc; that's perfectly fine.)
Things do not always have to occur exactly as what was written (universe created in six days, man created on the sixth day etc) as that would be reading Genesis at 'face value' and the author may not have meant it to be understood that way. After all, he did not set out to write a scientific treatise on creation as a term paper for a University course
.Actually, 2e3 did not say that the Catholic Church teaches that Adam and Eve is a fairy tale. What 2e3 said was that he/she was a Catholic and that it was his/her understanding that the story was a fairy tale
.We have to remember that the teachings of the Catholic Church are not always conveyed accurately or fully by what a particular person says or believes in. The same goes for me. Whilst I endeavour to put forward the official positions and teachings of the Church, I would readily admit that I might also be wrong in certain aspects or put points across poorly regarding Church teachings.
thanks for all your replays Omnia! appreciate it, esp the 9 points. :)
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you see, that's why i'm always having problems. the bible says 6 days, and you can somehow make it day = million of years.
tts.. rather difficult for me to accept.
ah nvm..
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GOD = DOG
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god. he kinda reminds me of copperfield.
poof. he's gone.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
you see, that's why i'm always having problems. the bible says 6 days, and you can somehow make it day = million of years.
tts.. rather difficult for me to accept.
ah nvm..
Problem can be solved if you look at the Bible as Word Of God and the events mentioned are to bring the message to us.The "technicalities" are "not important" per se.
The important issues is that they are there to bring us what God wants us to learn and know / message.
Just like Jesus who uses parables in His teachings to deliver to us His teachings / messages.
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Originally posted by 2e3:
Therefore without any interest one wouldn't be bothered to learn about the religion at all.
therefore it is our job to share our knowledge to try and share what little knowledge we have. Sure i have very little knowledge about the bible but i believe that doesn't make me any less "holy" as those who do. What i PERSONALLY believe in is that at the end its our very personal relationship with God that really matters. and thats whats pushing me to try and learn more about him through the bible and practices.
once again sorry if i sound ignorant asking stupid questions, but thats the only way i know in order to learn.
I agree with some of what you said but for those who are "doing the same thing since young and were "forced" to go church along with their parents" is no excuse at all.....since they would have attended Catechism classes from P1.
There are many ways to learn about the faith if you are keen as the Church have many talks and retreats and you can get the info from the Church bulletin, Catholic News and websites etc... These are conducted by priest and other qualified personel who will give you the information.
Another way to learn is to attend RCIA and you can speak to the priest who will be more than happy to allow you to do so.
Forum is only 1 of the way and personally, I feel is not the best way and certainly not the only way.
Just my 2 cents worth.
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Originally posted by yourmotherrr:
GOD = DOG
It's ok if you do not believed but why throw insults here?
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
you see, that's why i'm always having problems. the bible says 6 days, and you can somehow make it day = million of years.
tts.. rather difficult for me to accept.
ah nvm..
Maybe the following (imperfect) analogy might help you better understand what I'm saying.
Let's suppose that the bible was being written (in English) today, and let's suppose the sacred author was describing a miracle being performed by a prophet called Gene. He might write,
"The prophet Gene came to Singapore which was experiencing its worst drought ever. The people implored him to intercede with God to relieve their suffering. Gene took pity on them and agreed. He stood at an open field in Sengkang and millions came to watch the miracle with cautious hope in their hearts. Gene looked up into the bright sky and muttered a prayer. Dark clouds immediately gathered and lo and behold, it started raining cats and dogs ! The people were drenched but they started to dance in joy. I almost died laughing watching their hilarious but jubilant dances."
Now fast forward two thousand years into the future. Someone reading this passage in the year 4000AD (in another language without much knowledge of Singapore and 21st century writing styles) might think erroneously that there were really millions of people watching Gene, that cats and dogs really did fall from the sky together with rain and that the author almost died from laughter watching the people dance. Afterall, if that's what the passage says, that is what it must mean, right ?
You and I know otherwise. In this analogy, all that the author was trying to convey was that the prophet Gene interceded with God and performed a miracle in God's name in front of a very large crowd (not necessarily millions). It rained hard (no cats and dogs involved) after a prolonged drought and the author found the happy dances of the people extremely funny (he was in no danger of dying).
I know this is a very crude analogy but I hope that it helps illustrate the points that I'm making. Cheers.
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Originally posted by Joolead:
interesting ,god only make adam and eve.but where did their childern get their wife,ape monkey?not logical.
Adam's children married each other. But incest was not viewed as a forbidden activity until the time of Moses. See Leviticus chapters 18-20. Adam and Eve's children married their brothers and sisters. Even Abraham married Sarah, who was his half-sister (Genesis 20:12). For further reading see Where did Cain get his wife?
guess this explain ur question
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Originally posted by Joolead:
interesting ,god only make adam and eve.but where did their childern get their wife,ape monkey?not logical.
Does the bible says God made only Adam and Eve?
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Originally posted by Omnia:
Maybe the following (imperfect) analogy might help you better understand what I'm saying.
Let's suppose that the bible was being written (in English) today, and let's suppose the sacred author was describing a miracle being performed by a prophet called Gene. He might write,
"The prophet Gene came to Singapore which was experiencing its worst drought ever. The people implored him to intercede with God to relieve their suffering. Gene took pity on them and agreed. He stood at an open field in Sengkang and millions came to watch the miracle with cautious hope in their hearts. Gene looked up into the bright sky and muttered a prayer. Dark clouds immediately gathered and lo and behold, it started raining cats and dogs ! The people were drenched but they started to dance in joy. I almost died laughing watching their hilarious but jubilant dances."
Now fast forward two thousand years into the future. Someone reading this passage in the year 4000AD (in another language without much knowledge of Singapore and 21st century writing styles) might think erroneously that there were really millions of people watching Gene, that cats and dogs really did fall from the sky together with rain and that the author almost died from laughter watching the people dance. Afterall, if that's what the passage says, that is what it must mean, right ?
You and I know otherwise. In this analogy, all that the author was trying to convey was that the prophet Gene interceded with God and performed a miracle in God's name in front of a very large crowd (not necessarily millions). It rained hard (no cats and dogs involved) after a prolonged drought and the author found the happy dances of the people extremely funny (he was in no danger of dying).
I know this is a very crude analogy but I hope that it helps illustrate the points that I'm making. Cheers.
that's... quite... bad actually haha.
because i think you overdramatized it. God said he created the world in 6 days, it's not the same as you tried to use descriptive words to describe an event.
raining cats and dogs, is a descriptive phrase
millions of people, describing the number of people.
it's different from God created the world in 6 days.
because the bible even described the night and morning:
And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
it's clear cut. so i don't see how your analogy has to do with this.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
that's... quite... bad actually haha.
because i think you overdramatized it. God said he created the world in 6 days, it's not the same as you tried to use descriptive words to describe an event.
raining cats and dogs, is a descriptive phrase
millions of people, describing the number of people.
it's different from God created the world in 6 days.
because the bible even described the night and morning:
And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.
it's clear cut. so i don't see how your analogy has to do with this.
Agree that the analogy is not perfect but it does highlight the importance of proper bible interpretation.
Regarding Genesis, it all goes back to the intentions of the sacred author. If his intention was really to give a step by step, scientifically and chronologically accurate account of creation, then we should believe word for word what was written.
But the million dollar question is (actually, there are no million dollars at stake
), was that really his intention ? Or was his intention merely to teach us that God created the world out of nothing at the beginning of time including time itself ? Both are possibilities and it's perfectly fine to believe in a six day creation. All I'm saying is that other creation theories such as the universe developing over a much longer period of time are not necessarily incompatible with scripture and I believe that is the position of the Catholic Church. -
Originally posted by Omnia:
Agree that the analogy is not perfect but it does highlight the importance of proper bible interpretation.
Regarding Genesis, it all goes back to the intentions of the sacred author. If his intention was really to give a step by step, scientifically and chronologically accurate account of creation, then we should believe word for word what was written.
But the million dollar question is (actually, there are no million dollars at stake
),
was that really his intention ? Or was his intention
merely to teach us that God created the world out of nothing
at the beginning of time including time itself ? Both are
possibilities and it's perfectly fine to believe in a six day
creation. All I'm saying is that other creation theories such
as the universe developing over a much longer period of time
are not necessarily incompatible with scripture and I believe that
is the position of the Catholic Church.i believe if moses wasn't inspired by God to write specifically, that specifically an evening and a morning past, and then said it's the first day - he wouldn't have written that down.
in fact, if you think about it, it's so incredulous and it's so easy to make this proclaimation a target for critisizm by science - but yet, God said it was so. if this was merely written by man, uninspired by God, he would be putting himself in grave danger because this has a good probability of being disproved, thus proving that the bible is fallable, and inaccurate.
but i believe that it is inspired by God, it is exactly how it happened, and it cannot be disproved by science. i rather choose not to stand at a "safe zone" where i twist the word to make it more... acceptable by science, so i won't be easily disproved.
but i think if God is real, and the bible is indeed the infallable word of God, i should believe that it can never be disproved, in fact, in due time, science may find out that indeed the world was created in 6 days. so yes, i still stand that the world was created in 6 days