Originally posted by Chin Eng:JW or Jehovah Witnesses are considered a cult by mainstream orthodox Christians.
eh..yes i know that already? they fell out with the church cuz they find the teachings differ from the bible and couldnt accept it rite? the protestants also fell out with the church because of similiar reasons rite?
Originally posted by domonkassyu:
eh..yes i know that already? they fell out with the church cuz they find the teachings differ from the bible and couldnt accept it rite? the protestants also fell out with the church because of similiar reasons rite?
i am glad you know.
there is a difference between disagreeing on the Bible and rewriting the Bible to suit one's view.
http://www.carm.org/jw/cult.htm
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/jw.htm
the disagreement is beyond the "trinity" issue.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
i am glad you know.there is a difference between disagreeing on the Bible and rewriting the Bible to suit one's view.
http://www.carm.org/jw/cult.htm
http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Cults/jw.htm
the disagreement is beyond the "trinity" issue.
=)
i have not check out the links u gave, jus back from lunch..i had the chance to compare a JW bible and a normal NIV bible that most churches uses..other then the common words choices. the more significant difference is JW used God's name instead of titles like lord etc..
btw, can tell me what other significant differences are there? or all are found in the links?? thanks
im almost done goin thru the two links..mighty twists of words..
it appears the writers of the 2 links know alot about JWs.
Originally posted by domonkassyu:it appears the writers of the 2 links know alot about JWs.
while I cannot speak for the rapidnet website, I personally like to refer to CARM. In some of the articles there, CARM can be slightly extremist in its inclination but to me, the credibility rates pretty high.
like all websites found, they are only presenting THEIR personal views (even those done with research). nonetheless they are invaluable as resources for one to compare and contrast.
in the Singapore context, you definitely do not want to go the JW way.... many go to jail because of their stance toward National Service.
To see things in another pespective, building a Mega Church is a form of reaching to the masses; a testimony of the works of God.
Originally posted by davidche:To see things in another pespective, building a Mega Church is a form of reaching to the masses; a testimony of the works of God.
this may not necessarily be true... however this is what mega-churches want you to believe.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
while I cannot speak for the rapidnet website, I personally like to refer to CARM. In some of the articles there, CARM can be slightly extremist in its inclination but to me, the credibility rates pretty high.like all websites found, they are only presenting THEIR personal views (even those done with research). nonetheless they are invaluable as resources for one to compare and contrast.
in the Singapore context, you definitely do not want to go the JW way.... many go to jail because of their stance toward National Service.
what better way to compare and contrast then putting 1 self into it??i studied their works before..i studied mainstream before too..
as for in SG, no the guys dont go jail because they are JW. they go DB. 3 years.but after that no reservice wor..not like us.. =(
their stand against NS is becuase they do not want to take up arms and learn killing. which is actually very in harmony with the bible. their neutrality with politics also..
too bad the govt dont like that, thats why they twisted the law to place JW in trouble in SG.
Originally posted by davidche:To see things in another pespective, building a Mega Church is a form of reaching to the masses; a testimony of the works of God.
if the 1st thing mega churches do is not collecting $$ and more $$..then i believe is a testimony of God's works.
Originally posted by domonkassyu:what better way to compare and contrast then putting 1 self into it??i studied their works before..i studied mainstream before too..
as for in SG, no the guys dont go jail because they are JW. they go DB. 3 years.but after that no reservice wor..not like us.. =(
their stand against NS is becuase they do not want to take up arms and learn killing. which is actually very in harmony with the bible. their neutrality with politics also..
too bad the govt dont like that, thats why they twisted the law to place JW in trouble in SG.
for one, it is not necessarily to put one self into it to compare and contrast, if this theory is true, one will need to spend one's whole life comparing and contrasting all religions.
DB, jail, realistically there is very little difference.... but if you think it is different, ok with me.
their so-called "harmony" is a half measure. want to go the whole hog? be like the Amish.
the government thing... i am aware of your anti-government stance over lots of things, but i don't believe the law is "twisted". the government is willing to compromise. look Seventh-Day Adventist, they are also anti-killing, but they do National Service as long as they do not handle guns.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:for one, it is not necessarily to put one self into it to compare and contrast, if this theory is true, one will need to spend one's whole life comparing and contrasting all religions.
DB, jail, realistically there is very little difference.... but if you think it is different, ok with me.
their so-called "harmony" is a half measure. want to go the whole hog? be like the Amish.
the government thing... i am aware of your anti-government stance over lots of things, but i don't believe the law is "twisted". the government is willing to compromise. look Seventh-Day Adventist, they are also anti-killing, but they do National Service as long as they do not handle guns.
i agree the be in the situation is not the best way..though i already started a quite a few religions studies and stay on christianity for quite sometime. so i tot it is good for me to see all sides of christianity.
DB-jail thingy, i was trying to play the fool lah..like microsoft that gives technically correct answer but totally useless..hehe
as for govt..im not really anti govt..just dun like the way they do things..as for twistedness...they have outdone themselves in twisting the constitutional laws of freedom. the JW stand against NS was both against killings/war and also taking a stand on govt sides.
7day adventist willing to go NS without handling arms is similiar to JW stand on killing. but JW has went the xtra mile in not takin sides with politics. hence not serving NS and kena jialat jialat frm SG govt lor.
gee..didnt know u noticed me.. =)
Originally posted by domonkassyu:as for govt..im not really anti govt..just dun like the way they do things..as for twistedness...they have outdone themselves in twisting the constitutional laws of freedom. the JW stand against NS was both against killings/war and also taking a stand on govt sides.
7day adventist willing to go NS without handling arms is similiar to JW stand on killing. but JW has went the xtra mile in not takin sides with politics. hence not serving NS and kena jialat jialat frm SG govt lor.
gee..didnt know u noticed me.. =)
i notice things... though i may not comment on them.
what is the practical advantage of going against government laws? afterall, aren't we told to "render to Caesar what is Caesar's".
unless we truly have a despotic government, we ought to obey the laws - our personal likes and dislikes have very little to do with the law as a whole. Also there is NOT ONE single country that has laws that will please everyone, so disliking how things are doing, in reality, is not a big thing on the grand scale of things.
in reality, what is "the constitutional law of freedom"? for that matter, what is "freedom"?
true freedom is an idealistic but impractical philosophy that many people with youthful mentality embraces. one definition that i have just found:
"Freedom is a comprehensive term that includes not only the right of free choice, but the ability to exercise the right of free choice."
to me, this is just bold rhetorics... what it means to me is: i can choose to drive as fast as i want in the direction i choose regardless of how dangerous it is to others.
having said that, i am not in the habit of making political comments which is why i seldom post in speakers corner.
back to the religious aspect of this discussion:
...so in your opinion, we should make the extra mile? noting that to some, this extra mile involves strapping explosives on their body...
Originally posted by Chin Eng:i notice things... though i may not comment on them.
what is the practical advantage of going against government laws? afterall, aren't we told to "render to Caesar what is Caesar's".
unless we truly have a despotic government, we ought to obey the laws - our personal likes and dislikes have very little to do with the law as a whole. Also there is NOT ONE single country that has laws that will please everyone, so disliking how things are doing, in reality, is not a big thing on the grand scale of things.
in reality, what is "the constitutional law of freedom"? for that matter, what is "freedom"?
true freedom is an idealistic but impractical philosophy that many people with youthful mentality embraces. one definition that i have just found:
"Freedom is a comprehensive term that includes not only the right of free choice, but the ability to exercise the right of free choice."
to me, this is just bold rhetorics... what it means to me is: i can choose to drive as fast as i one in the direction i choose regardless of how dangerous it is to others.
having said that, i am not in the habit of making political comments which is why i seldom post in speakers corner.
back to the religious aspect of this discussion:
...so in your opinion, we should make the extra mile? noting that to some, this extra mile involves strapping explosives on their body...
hehe...i like your points..
sounds like im a JW here..but nope..at least not nw..as for paying back caesers coin, JW do pay taxes and are very law abidding so much that (i mentioned this b4) LHL likes them if not for NS issue..in this NS thingy, what we actaully do is serving the nation..this in their view is the same as pickin a side in the human govt.
and of cuz no 1 govt can please everyone cuz humans are imperfect.
as according to constituional law, it is clearly stated that citizens of SG have the freedom of choice with regards to worship.in extreme debate, it actually allows even satanic worships if we were to the law strictly.
also,constitude laws are the core of laws and no lesser laws can overwrite it. but the govt here has done it lor..tats y i say twisted their very law.
the illustration you gave is correct on its own.total freedom leads to chaos. hence when God gave us freewill, he also gave us laws. however,the govt gave us little freedom and also twist the law to govern the freedom..get my drift?
as for the extra mile done by JW and done by certain moslems are extreme opposites so cant actually phrase like what u had. for one, JW have been known to be totally peaceful and docile and never willing to pick up arms. or they would had done so during WW1 and WW2 without so many JWs dying.
as for the moslems extremists, they are well known for killing already. little wonder to wear strap ons ya? jus like a sheep (JW) and a wolf (moslem xtremists) 2 ends of extremnity ya?
Originally posted by domonkassyu:as according to constituional law, it is clearly stated that citizens of SG have the freedom of choice with regards to worship.in extreme debate, it actually allows even satanic worships if we were to the law strictly.
also,constitude laws are the core of laws and no lesser laws can overwrite it. but the govt here has done it lor..tats y i say twisted their very law.
actually constitutional laws CAN be overwritten to reflect and to react to changes of the society....
...but i think that the argument should be whether such changes are legal or not.
Originally posted by domonkassyu:the illustration you gave is correct on its own.total freedom leads to chaos. hence when God gave us freewill, he also gave us laws. however,the govt gave us little freedom and also twist the law to govern the freedom..get my drift?
as for the extra mile done by JW and done by certain moslems are extreme opposites so cant actually phrase like what u had. for one, JW have been known to be totally peaceful and docile and never willing to pick up arms. or they would had done so during WW1 and WW2 without so many JWs dying.
as for the moslems extremists, they are well known for killing already. little wonder to wear strap ons ya? jus like a sheep (JW) and a wolf (moslem xtremists) 2 ends of extremnity ya?
i look at it this way, and i don't pretend to be expert on law or the constitution of Singapore....
in article 15 which states:
(1) Every person has the right to profess and practise his religion and to propagate it.
(2) No person shall be compelled to pay any tax the proceeds of which are specially allocated in whole or in part for the purposes of a religion other than his own.
(3) Every religious group has the right —
(a) to manage its own religious affairs;
(b) to establish and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes; and
(c) to acquire and own property and hold and administer it in accordance with law.
(4) This Article does not authorise any act contrary to any general law relating to public order, public health or morality.
i think clause 4 overrides everything the precedes it. therefore on the issue of religious freedom, if it contravenes a threat to public order, public health and morality, there is a basis to come down hard on those who violate this law.
the example of JW and Islam.... so the issue really isn't about going the "extra mile", but what the "extra mile" entails.
to some Christians, the extra mile is avoiding food condemned in the old testament.... to others, the extra mile is marrying more than one wifes (i am not even talking about Muslims here).... so which one you think the government is going to slam?
btw, how old are you?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:actually constitutional laws CAN be overwritten to reflect and to react to changes of the society....
...but i think that the argument should be whether such changes are legal or not.
i look at it this way, and i don't pretend to be expert on law or the constitution of Singapore....
in article 15 which states:
(1) Every person has the right to profess and practise his religion and to propagate it.
(2) No person shall be compelled to pay any tax the proceeds of which are specially allocated in whole or in part for the purposes of a religion other than his own.
(3) Every religious group has the right —
(a) to manage its own religious affairs; (b) to establish and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes; and (c) to acquire and own property and hold and administer it in accordance with law.
(4) This Article does not authorise any act contrary to any general law relating to public order, public health or morality.
i think clause 4 overrides everything the precedes it. therefore on the issue of religious freedom, if it contravenes a threat to public order, public health and morality, there is a basis to come down hard on those who violate this law.
the example of JW and Islam.... so the issue really isn't about going the "extra mile", but what the "extra mile" entails.
to some Christians, the extra mile is avoiding food condemned in the old testament.... to others, the extra mile is marrying more than one wifes (i am not even talking about Muslims here).... so which one you think the government is going to slam?
btw, how old are you?
by the way, if im not wrong, either all JW or some JW actually carry a copy of article 15 with them. im no law expert too..
but we look at clause 4..what has JW done to threaten public order,health and morality?
as for wat the mile entails..using a pariotism point of view would condemn JWs. but is not patriotism a religion that worships govt and country? does not this contradict having no part in this system as JC says?
some christians leaders says to whip oneself in repenting or trying to gag oneself to repent. the JWs merely does not support takin up arms.
i did heard some groups of christians from the US do subtley encourage polygamy.
im 25..u??
Originally posted by domonkassyu:by the way, if im not wrong, either all JW or some JW actually carry a copy of article 15 with them. im no law expert too..
but we look at clause 4..what has JW done to threaten public order,health and morality?
as for wat the mile entails..using a pariotism point of view would condemn JWs. but is not patriotism a religion that worships govt and country? does not this contradict having no part in this system as JC says?
some christians leaders says to whip oneself in repenting or trying to gag oneself to repent. the JWs merely does not support takin up arms.
i did heard some groups of christians from the US do subtley encourage polygamy.
im 25..u??
i am only speculating.... the fact that one does not have a valid health reason to discharge oneself from national service is deem as one not supporting public order.
the issue is not about killing, which is what the JW is against. if they had chosen to view doing national service as killing then they are bending the definitions, which is what they have been used to. I reiterate, not serving the army is not the same as not taking arms. You need to clear of this point. I believe the government had already factored that in.
patriotism is NOT about the worship of a government or country. it is about being proud of the country that one lives in an in every reasonable situation support that country.
people who support polygamy are not usually classified as Christians. you are probably referring to the FLDS cult, an offshot of the Mormons, which interestingly is NOT banned in Singapore because they are no longer polygamous in their doctrine.
not just in Singapore:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses
so, do we take the view that one of most persecuted religious sect is INDEED the people of God... or....
the governments of the world know what they are doing?
It cost 2.5mil cos S'ore church is a clubhouse...got Hans, pte car park using in-vehicle charging system, offers car polishing, has basketball court, exquisite tilings/natural stones, etc...maybe next time when they buy over Suntec or Nee Ann City, you have heated swimming pool and T&Co, etc..
Originally posted by Chin Eng:i am only speculating.... the fact that one does not have a valid health reason to discharge oneself from national service is deem as one not supporting public order.
the issue is not about killing, which is what the JW is against. if they had chosen to view doing national service as killing then they are bending the definitions, which is what they have been used to. I reiterate, not serving the army is not the same as not taking arms. You need to clear of this point. I believe the government had already factored that in.
patriotism is NOT about the worship of a government or country. it is about being proud of the country that one lives in an in every reasonable situation support that country.
people who support polygamy are not usually classified as Christians. you are probably referring to the FLDS cult, an offshot of the Mormons, which interestingly is NOT banned in Singapore because they are no longer polygamous in their doctrine.
as per your speculation and earlier mention of the 7day adventist. it would seem(no offence to anyone i hope) the latter took an easier way out. the JW stood firmly in their stand here and got what they stand for. no need to serve NS in return to go DB for 3 years. fair and square..i dont see any disturb to public order in this case.
we all know that NS especially in Sg consists of wearing a state issued uniform,taking pledges to the state,pickin up of arms. also i am pretty sure that IF there is another way of serving NS like cleaning up singapore roads and pruning without the need to take pledge and the state uniform, the JW will gladly do it. it isnt just about killing,u r right. they just dont wanna pick a side on any human govt. the govt factored in the JW will never bend to their will in this manner so they came up with the DB thingy which the JW accepted. the 3 years also calculated the damn reservist we need to serve. their lives in the DB basically differs from the regular punks who got sent in.
patriotism still seems very much like taking and loving this world that satan loves. mayb its just me i guess.
the cult you mentioned..yes.just didnt wanna mention names. i had a brush with mormons before..they mentioned to me apparently the US also have divine scriptures..compared to JW, i think they sound more crappish. not mentioning Mormons also usually target niche markets to preach.
=)
Originally posted by domonkassyu:as per your speculation and earlier mention of the 7day adventist. it would seem(no offence to anyone i hope) the latter took an easier way out. the JW stood firmly in their stand here and got what they stand for. no need to serve NS in return to go DB for 3 years. fair and square..i dont see any disturb to public order in this case.
we all know that NS especially in Sg consists of wearing a state issued uniform,taking pledges to the state,pickin up of arms. also i am pretty sure that IF there is another way of serving NS like cleaning up singapore roads and pruning without the need to take pledge and the state uniform, the JW will gladly do it. it isnt just about killing,u r right. they just dont wanna pick a side on any human govt. the govt factored in the JW will never bend to their will in this manner so they came up with the DB thingy which the JW accepted. the 3 years also calculated the damn reservist we need to serve. their lives in the DB basically differs from the regular punks who got sent in.
i wouldn't say that the 7 day folks "took the easier way out" just because serving the NS did not violate their beliefs.
at the end of the day, the JWs are not unaware of the consequences, so what you decide do, you reap the results. hence it is not fair to say that the government tweak the constitution to whack the JWs. that's all i am saying with regards to this.
Originally posted by domonkassyu:patriotism still seems very much like taking and loving this world that satan loves. mayb its just me i guess.
the cult you mentioned..yes.just didnt wanna mention names. i had a brush with mormons before..they mentioned to me apparently the US also have divine scriptures..compared to JW, i think they sound more crappish. not mentioning Mormons also usually target niche markets to preach.
=)
i am slightly offended by the statement in bold. note that it's God that created the world, and just because one is patriotic then one is deemed to be on Satan's side.
JWs also have their version of "sacred writings" and members are all asked to read them - The Watchtower. I've read some of them and they are equally crap.
having said all that, i am not dissuading you from joining a JW group. We all do as we please. For whatever that has happened to JW globally, it is a result of their own choices (or doctrines), it has nothing to do with the government of Singapore.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:i wouldn't say that the 7 day folks "took the easier way out" just because serving the NS did not violate their beliefs.
at the end of the day, the JWs are not unaware of the consequences, so what you decide do, you reap the results. hence it is not fair to say that the government tweak the constitution to whack the JWs. that's all i am saying with regards to this.
i am slightly offended by the statement in bold. note that it's God that created the world, and just because one is patriotic then one is deemed to be on Satan's side.
JWs also have their version of "sacred writings" and members are all asked to read them - The Watchtower. I've read some of them and they are equally crap.
having said all that, i am not dissuading you from joining a JW group. We all do as we please. For whatever that has happened to JW globally, it is a result of their own choices (or doctrines), it has nothing to do with the government of Singapore.
JW are aware of the situation and they are fighting legally with it.
as for the words in Bold. perhaps you misunderstand my true meaning. it was stated in the Bible..God love the WORLD so much.... also written was to be no part of this WORLD..does this contradict each other?? certainly no isnt it? i m sure with your understanding of the bible, you will be able to know which world i meant ya?
being patriotic surely refers to the world of satan. as in the bible, it clearly states have no part in this world..being proud to be a God's creation living in an earth He created is good. being proud to be a citizen in a imperfect human govt i dont see wats to be proud of. but hey, thats wat makes us individuals and unique right? =)
the "sacred writings" of JW are what they claimed to be studies of the bible. the "sacred writings" of the mormons from what was told to me by that ang moh was a scripture found in the US.
as for what you read from the watch tower...i dun knw..been told they write crappy stuff..but after readin some..i tink still manageable.
and, u didnt answer me ur age when i ask u in rtn ya?aint that kinda rude?hehe
as for JW being persecuted globally especially in less free country. they made the choice to stand firm in their beliefs. its a fight that only God can judge.
Originally posted by domonkassyu:JW are aware of the situation and they are fighting legally with it.
as for the words in Bold. perhaps you misunderstand my true meaning. it was stated in the Bible..God love the WORLD so much.... also written was to be no part of this WORLD..does this contradict each other?? certainly no isnt it? i m sure with your understanding of the bible, you will be able to know which world i meant ya?
again, going on the practical question, what does it mean to be "not part of the world"?
Originally posted by domonkassyu:being patriotic surely refers to the world of satan. as in the bible, it clearly states have no part in this world..being proud to be a God's creation living in an earth He created is good. being proud to be a citizen in a imperfect human govt i dont see wats to be proud of. but hey, thats wat makes us individuals and unique right? =)
the "sacred writings" of JW are what they claimed to be studies of the bible. the "sacred writings" of the mormons from what was told to me by that ang moh was a scripture found in the US.
as for what you read from the watch tower...i dun knw..been told they write crappy stuff..but after readin some..i tink still manageable.
and, u didnt answer me ur age when i ask u in rtn ya?aint that kinda rude?hehe
as for JW being persecuted globally especially in less free country. they made the choice to stand firm in their beliefs. its a fight that only God can judge.
actually, i cannot see the light at the end of this tunnel, you are of course very defensive over the JWs, inspite of the various findings by Christians and secular cult busters alike that JWs is a cult.
so the point is there is no end to this, and perhaps we should end here before it turns ugly.
apologise for not answering your question, it slipped my mind... i am 47.
Originally posted by Chin Eng:again, going on the practical question, what does it mean to be "not part of the world"?
actually, i cannot see the light at the end of this tunnel, you are of course very defensive over the JWs, inspite of the various findings by Christians and secular cult busters alike that JWs is a cult.
so the point is there is no end to this, and perhaps we should end here before it turns ugly.
apologise for not answering your question, it slipped my mind... i am 47.
so far frm what i see in the bible..it means stay away from politics as one of the main thing.
i defend them cuz i always defend the more persecuted..its just me on this.the wiki link u gave, i already went thru it. the treatment they get far exceeds what they did wrong if any. beaten savagely because they refuse to buy political cards..wat logic is this?
if one would see, the more persecuted the JWs are, they more they feel they are doing what the bible teach. and draw strength from that.
dont worry about turning ugly..no chance of that..but im ok if you wanna end too ^^
as for the last point..i was quite curious why you would ask my age..thus i asked u back =)
Originally posted by domonkassyu:as for the last point..i was quite curious why you would ask my age..thus i asked u back =)
knowing a little more than a nickname helps me understand more on whom i am addressing.
people draw strength from persecution.... doesn't mean they are right, and no i do not advocate violence just because someone disagrees with me.