My "Christian" Experience
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
if you look at it, protestants are the odd ones out. the odds are stacked against you?
hmm? how so?
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
and with regards to the sheep and goat. if i apply what He said about the seeds he sown, and the seeds the enemy sown, can i safely say that non believers are actually classified as sheep? seems safe to say so.
Why apply what He says about seeds he sown? Where did He says so in this parable? He clearly says what he did and it is clear. The conditions to belong to sheeps or goats is clearly stated there. Don't get confused by adding on and twisting it out of context. This parable is telling us something.....every parable that Jesus told is teaching us something. Why avoid it? If deeds is meaningless why do you think Jesus bother to mention it? I am not even saying that I am right but I think we should pause to think and reflect why Jesus said what He did.....at least to search and find which is the purpose of discussion right?
I quote you : "can i safely say that non believers are actually classified as sheep? seems safe to say so."
So you confirmed that you believed that non-believers are actually classified as sheeps and thus will be saved right? Or am I wrong again ? Or are you confused with sheeps and goats?
I think non-believers can get into the sheep group if what they do (deeds) are in line with what Jesus said (without even knowing this parable) and even if they do not know or accept Jesus now. WHY?
Regardless of faith, when we die, we go see the same God (If you are a christian, you believe that there is only ONE God right?). Can you imagine a person on his last day refusing to accept God when he see him in person? If he does acknowledge God then and accept Him, plus the good deeds he has done (while alive) without even knowing that these are what Jesus taught his disciple to do, do you think he will be saved??
Was he saved by deeds alone ? NO
Was he saved by faith alone ? NO
He was saved by his deeds and last minute acceptance of Jesus (faith) right?
If he still refuse to accept God upon seeing Him, then, good luck to him.
Likewise, if a christian think that by faith alone he is saved, then deeds got do lor, don't have also no problem because saved liao. I think there will be trouble.
Hope this make sense enough for us to re-think.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
and of course. Unless you wish to contest that catholics are deeply involved in evangelism. then why in my entire life, catholics have always been admitting that they don't do evangelism, they believe religion is a personal thing. why it is always the christians who reach out to me and my family, while the catholic church stay silent.
And for my friend who passed away. if it was a catholic who was sitting beside her that day, would my friend pass away as a believer or a non-believer?
from the start, that's all you can say about the catholic church. that you're the greatest in number, the authentic goods, the real true undiluted real deal. i've heard it all, usually AFTER, christians did the sowing.
First of all, I think you should be respectful to your friend who passed away. If you do read The Last Judgement parable as above in proper context, you may be more comforted by it. Where you friend goes is beyond our control. It is between her and God. What we can do is to pray for her and help her beg for God's mercy (since you said she haven't baptised yet) and accept her into Heaven. What else can you do? I already answered your questions. Don't drag her in here.
Secondly, I never say anything about "authentic gods" or "undiluted read deal" - you did.
What I stated are facts backed historically that Catholic Churches are the longest surviving Church and adte back to Jesus's time. We are still thriving worldwide and that's also a fact. I brought this up because you says we don't reach out to non-believers and not for any other purposes.
Can that happen if there is nothing done by Catholics to evangelise? Last Easter alone, we have more than 1000 baptism in Singapore alone (not counting those baptised at other times during the year) and that include some Protestant.
The problem again is what and how you evangelise. Mega Churches also evangelise but so many people complaint. Why?
We have seen enough of christians out there telling people that only our God is real and their is not real God (worst - Satan) and they worship idol will go to hell etc..etc... Is that evangelisation? Or is that anti0Christ by driving would be believers away?
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
I think the deeds parts can be found in MT25:31-46 and Jesus said what he did for a reason. Nobody has commented on that yet.
well, if you really want a comment.... and on this issue, there are the other verses regarding salvation without works that you did not comment on.....again the context is important. note the metaphorical use of SHEEP and GOAT.
Sheep has always been the image of the Christian and Jesus is the shepherd (and not the goat herder)....
That being the case, the context of this passage is that it is addressed to two groups of people the Christian and the non-Christian.
The explanation of this passage is simply, for the things that we do unknowingly, Jesus knows. When we are doing good we are doing it unconsciously. Therefore as Christians our good works can be invisible even to us. It has nothing to do with salvation whatsoever.
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Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
Wah lao, unker Chin Eng, long time no see. 1 thing I want to add, if people lose their souls, the world still exists.
sometimes Boh Eng.... this year quite busy. Work load has increased. -
ah no, i meant goat. sorry.
and i compare the 2 parables together, because both of them are talking about the end times.
the sower sow good seeds, and later at night, the enemy sown his bad seeds. and when the sower's farmhands saw that the bad seeds and good seeds were growing together, and asked the sower if they should remove the bad seeds. the sower said it was alright, let them both grow together, and at the end, he will destroy the bad seeds.
in the other parable, Jesus said that he will gather all the people of all nations together, then seperate them as sheep and goat. and the sheep would be those who believed in him, and thus producing good works, from faith.
as for the goats would be non believer, people who attend church, but aren't real believers, after all, you can tell from their fruits. and real believers will always produce good works, because it's a natural process.
I think non-believers can get into the sheep group if they do what Jesus said even if they do not know or accept Jesus now. WHY?
bible verse?
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
I think non-believers can get into the sheep group if what they do (deeds) are in line with what Jesus said (without even knowing this parable) and even if they do not know or accept Jesus now. WHY?
Regardless of faith, when we die, we go see the same God (If you are a christian, you believe that there is only ONE God right?). Can you imagine a person on his last day refusing to accept God when he see him in person? If he does acknowledge God then and accept Him, plus the good deeds he has done (while alive) without even knowing that these are what Jesus taught his disciple to do, do you think he will be saved??
Was he saved by deeds alone ? NO
Was he saved by faith alone ? NO
He was saved by his deeds and last minute acceptance of Jesus (faith) right?
If he still refuse to accept God upon seeing Him, then, good luck to him.
based on standard Bible-speak.... the term sheep is exclusively on Christians. No "goats" can get into the sheep-pen (so to say). The Matthew passage is part of a series of Parables, and for any competent Bible reader, parables are imagery type stories. There are ascribe roles to the different characters in the parables, for example the Bridegroom is always Christ and the bride the church. Hence the sheep are the Christians and the goats are non-Christians. The passage addresses the issue of doing good naturally and unknowningly. It does not mention SALVATION or FAITH specifically. Any additional meaning derived are solely at the discretion of a misguided reader.
when a person dies. the chance dies. whatever he sees on the other side is like "Deal or No Deal" and you choose to deal, if your suit case is $1, too bad so sad.
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:Hope this make sense enough for us to re-think.
who's US? don't be so condesending leh..... you only want the protestants to rethink. You obviously don't wish to rethink your stand either.
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
First of all, I think you should be respectful to your friend who passed away. If you do read The Last Judgement parable as above in proper context, you may be more comforted by it. Where you friend goes is beyond our control. It is between her and God. What we can do is to pray for her and help her beg for God's mercy (since you said she haven't baptised yet) and accept her into Heaven. What else can you do? I already answered your questions. Don't drag her in here.
Secondly, I never say anything about "authentic gods" or "undiluted read deal" - you did.
What I stated are facts backed historically that Catholic Churches are the longest surviving Church and adte back to Jesus's time. We are still thriving worldwide and that's also a fact. I brought this up because you says we don't reach out to non-believers and not for any other purposes.
Can that happen if there is nothing done by Catholics to evangelise? Last Easter alone, we have more than 1000 baptism in Singapore alone (not counting those baptised at other times during the year) and that include some Protestant.
The problem again is what and how you evangelise. Mega Churches also evangelise but so many people complaint. Why?
We have seen enough of christians out there telling people that only our God is real and their is not real God (worst - Satan) and they worship idol will go to hell etc..etc... Is that evangelisation? Or is that anti0Christ by driving would be believers away?
it's definitely ugly, and that's the ugly truth. that if it was a catholic instead of a christian. she would never have heard the gospel, would never have faith, and would never have believed.
and i think it's poor comfort to try to salvage the situation by begging for God to take her into heaven, if you never did your job of sharing the good news of salvation.
i mean, don't you think it's of wrong piority. you don't share the gospel, and that person dies, so you pray for the dead.
it's like the chinese tradition of offering joss sticks. my uncle always ask why we don't offer joss sticks to the dead, it's a sign of respect. but the truth is this, isn't it better to show them respect when they're alive, and can benefit from the respect? rather than show respect only after she's dead?
if you can let someone benefit from the gospel, why not do it while they are alive? why wait until someone dies as a non-believer, then pray and beg God to take them in?
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
based on standard Bible-speak.... the term sheep is exclusively on Christians. No "goats" can get into the sheep-pen (so to say). The Matthew passage is part of a series of Parables, and for any competent Bible reader, parables are imagery type stories. There are ascribe roles to the different characters in the parables, for example the Bridegroom is always Christ and the bride the church. Hence the sheep are the Christians and the goats are non-Christians. The passage addresses the issue of doing good naturally and unknowningly. It does not mention SALVATION or FAITH specifically. Any additional meaning derived are solely at the discretion of a misguided reader.
when a person dies. the chance dies. whatever he sees on the other side is like "Deal or No Deal" and you choose to deal, if your suit case is $1, too bad so sad.
who's US? don't be so condesending leh..... you only want the protestants to rethink. You obviously don't wish to rethink your stand either.
that's why it's so annoying. everytime i have to dig up verses, and he won't even consider them. if i don't do so, he says whatever i say is irrelevant because it's not supported by the bible. but when i do, somehow, we'll be talking about other stuff.
i'm still waiting for validation on my passage about the sinful woman annointing Jesus from him.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
well, if you really want a comment.... and on this issue, there are the other verses regarding salvation without works that you did not comment on.....again the context is important. note the metaphorical use of SHEEP and GOAT.
Sheep has always been the image of the Christian and Jesus is the shepherd (and not the goat herder)....
That being the case, the context of this passage is that it is addressed to two groups of people the Christian and the non-Christian.
The explanation of this passage is simply, for the things that we do unknowingly, Jesus knows. When we are doing good we are doing it unconsciously. Therefore as Christians our good works can be invisible even to us. It has nothing to do with salvation whatsoever.
That's another way to look at this - I agree.
But how come the requirement to be sheeps are all related to deeds done while goat for deeds undone? By that, are we trying to say that good deeds can only come from christians and all other faith never do anything good?
Perhaps you take a re-look at my earlier answer as I edited it slightly mom ago. It just happen that it will also fit into your second part on knowingly or unknowingly.
If deeds has nothing to do with salvation, why did Jesus send only sheeps to heaven? Since deeds has nothing to do with salvation, goat also can go what?
Don't you think we need to ponder on this?
I did not avoid accepting those verses that says faith alone. But I did mention what then is faith? And I point to James who says faith without deeds is dead. Did Paul and James contradict? I think that's what we need to look at.
For me, I think they complement each other. Both are teaching and preaching what Jesus taught to his disciples. So, I went back to the 4 Gospels and I am convinced by scriptures that salvation is by faith but faith without deeds is dead (and this parable we are talking about is a clear indication by Jesus to us). Therefore, I find that salvation by faith and deeds makes more sense to me.
This of course is my personal choice and you do not need to agree. But I think there are grounds for us to ponder right?
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
t's definitely ugly, and that's the ugly truth. that if it was a catholic instead of a christian. she would never have heard the gospel, would never have faith, and would never have believed.
and i think it's poor comfort to try to salvage the situation by begging for God to take her into heaven, if you never did your job of sharing the good news of salvation.
i mean, don't you think it's of wrong piority. you don't share the gospel, and that person dies, so you pray for the dead.
it's like the chinese tradition of offering joss sticks. my uncle always ask why we don't offer joss sticks to the dead, it's a sign of respect. but the truth is this, isn't it better to show them respect when they're alive, and can benefit from the respect? rather than show respect only after she's dead?
if you can let someone benefit from the gospel, why not do it while they are alive? why wait until someone dies as a non-believer, then pray and beg God to take them in?
Do you need to feel guilty that you did not reach out to each and everyone? I don't think so because it is impossible.
You keep saying that Catholic do not reach out but then how come we still survive and having baptsim year after year? Where did they come from? Reject of your preaching?
I think Malcom tried to explained before. The Catholic Churches pray every week for the sick and for those who departed. Not only when someone dear pass away. The prayers are meant for everybody. And in stituation like yours, you don't even feel like saying a prayer for your friend? If you think she is in heaven, why not also say a prayer of thanks to our Lord? Pls do not think I am implying that you friend is not in heaven - I don't as I have already explained.
If someone can benefit from the Gospel, why don't they benefit it when they are alive? That's a good question but we always have to know that not everyone will be converted and that's a fact. There is so only so much that we can do and we do our best.
Isn't our God great, loving and unforgiving that even non-believers now can stand a chance to go to heaven?
Being christian is an honour and we should live our life as much as possible they way Jesus wants us to. That is to love our God with everything and also to love our neighbour. The last judgement parable is also to re-inforce the love our neighbour part.
Is that so difficult a task that we cannot do? Why wait when all of us can start take the first step.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
based on standard Bible-speak.... the term sheep is exclusively on Christians. No "goats" can get into the sheep-pen (so to say). The Matthew passage is part of a series of Parables, and for any competent Bible reader, parables are imagery type stories. There are ascribe roles to the different characters in the parables, for example the Bridegroom is always Christ and the bride the church. Hence the sheep are the Christians and the goats are non-Christians. The passage addresses the issue of doing good naturally and unknowningly. It does not mention SALVATION or FAITH specifically. Any additional meaning derived are solely at the discretion of a misguided reader.
when a person dies. the chance dies. whatever he sees on the other side is like "Deal or No Deal" and you choose to deal, if your suit case is $1, too bad so sad.
who's US? don't be so condesending leh..... you only want the protestants to rethink. You obviously don't wish to rethink your stand either.
"based on standard Bible-speak...." from where is your source and who decides the standard? If you can convince me that Jesus is teaching us (from scriputre) that only Christians (Sheeps) can do good deeds and Non-Christians (Goats) cannot do good deeds, I will retink......
If going to heaven is not salvation ?? then what is ??
How to rethink - based on hearsay??
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
The context of Matt 7 - Matthew 7 is a series of extremely short messages - almost like a one liner -that started with Matthew 5.The portion where Verse 21 is has got to do with false prophets, therefore the context of the verse is about the people at that time prophesizing in Jesus' name, and when read, it has to be read together with verses 22 and 23:
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
If one is tempted to link this verse to normal folks, then I think we are in deep trouble because, the people mentioned inthis verses "prophesy in" Jesus name, and in Jesus' name "drive out demons and perform many miracles". None of us come close to that, and yet these folks are told that Jesus "never knew" them.
The chapters from 5 onwards carry a huge amount of analogies, one of which is:
29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
So do we take this literally? Obviously not!
so mrlim... is your salvation assured? based on your definition, none of our salvation is assured, because it all hinges in the good works that we've done, and who's to say it's enough?
or how about, I've spent the last month doing good work, and today I sinned, shortly later I die.... do I have salvation?
to paraphrase dumb2.... this kind of salvation plan - quite cocked up.
What Jesus means by "Many" in Mat 7:22 is us... the believers who know Him, who tell people about Him. It is us who believe in His name. It cannot be the unbelievers, why would the unbelievers do all those things in Jesus name, but yet Jesus called them evildoers, why? Because only he who does the will of my Father who is in Heaven will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
And for Matt 5:29-30, unfortunatelly, Jesus means it literally. I can back it up, but it is a Catholic thing, if you don't open your mind, you won't believe it.
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i think those christian friends of urs can just go to hell. quit that christian grp. it sound more like a cult to me. next time they question u on why u hang out with ur non-christian friends and other crap stuff, just shoot them back saying, "IF MY PARENTS ARE NON-CHRISTIANS, YOU WANT ME TO SEVER TIES WITH THE?!" that shld shut them up.
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malcolm, r u one of those catholics who believe tat wadever has been taught to u scripturally is inerrant n perfect??? if tats where u r coming from, then i dun tink the protestants inside here will be willing to listen...u see, protestants believe tat no church is perfect n no pastor, pope or priest can claim to have the 100% perfect doctrine of the entire bible...tats y sometimes we dun like to discuss doctrinal stuffs wif catholics cos they keep tinking onli they r rite...
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
ah no, i meant goat. sorry.
and i compare the 2 parables together, because both of them are talking about the end times.
the sower sow good seeds, and later at night, the enemy sown his bad seeds. and when the sower's farmhands saw that the bad seeds and good seeds were growing together, and asked the sower if they should remove the bad seeds. the sower said it was alright, let them both grow together, and at the end, he will destroy the bad seeds.
in the other parable, Jesus said that he will gather all the people of all nations together, then seperate them as sheep and goat. and the sheep would be those who believed in him, and thus producing good works, from faith.
as for the goats would be non believer, people who attend church, but aren't real believers, after all, you can tell from their fruits. and real believers will always produce good works, because it's a natural process.
bible verse?
I did not see Jesus saying sheeps are believers while goats are not. If you are basing on your own interpretation, then how to go on?
You might as well include Catholics into the goat...... since it's is up to you to say.
If Jesus wants to says believers and non-believers, He would have just said that.
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QUOTE: Originally posted by dumbdumb!: haha could u be so helpful to post the quotes that says works are needed for salvation? i'm kind of rushing assignments now UNQUOTE
Are you not the one who ask for quotes to support what I said? Did I not give to you? Did you comments?
That was 17.05.08. Your comments came only today 22.05.08....
Why are you complaining that I am giving you the quotes? You asked for it right?
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
But how come the requirement to be sheeps are all related to deeds done while goat for deeds undone? By that, are we trying to say that good deeds can only come from christians and all other faith never do anything good?
Perhaps you take a re-look at my earlier answer as I edited it slightly mom ago. It just happen that it will also fit into your second part on knowingly or unknowingly.
If deeds has nothing to do with salvation, why did Jesus send only sheeps to heaven? Since deeds has nothing to do with salvation, goat also can go what?
Isaiah 53:6 - For we all like sheep has gone astray
Psalms 23 - The Lord is my shepherd etc etc
plus tons of other verses linking followers of Jesus to be sheep....
the context of the Matthew verse is about deeds that we do UNKNOWINGLY.
.... however you can choose not to accept that explanation.
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:I did not avoid accepting those verses that says faith alone. But I did mention what then is faith? And I point to James who says faith without deeds is dead. Did Paul and James contradict? I think that's what we need to look at.
For me, I think they complement each other. Both are teaching and preaching what Jesus taught to his disciples. So, I went back to the 4 Gospels and I am convinced by scriptures that salvation is by faith but faith without deeds is dead (and this parable we are talking about is a clear indication by Jesus to us). Therefore, I find that salvation by faith and deeds makes more sense to me.
This of course is my personal choice and you do not need to agree. But I think there are grounds for us to ponder right?
Sure I can ponder, but can you? Note: no one, dumb2 and myself included are saying that we should NOT DO good works. We are saying that good works and salvation do not necessary go hand in hand.... to go beyond the DIFFERENCE in DEFINITION of FAITH, I think that there is a great divide over what we think SALVATION is.
Originally posted by malcom:What Jesus means by "Many" in Mat 7:22 is us... the believers who know Him, who tell people about Him. It is us who believe in His name. It cannot be the unbelievers, why would the unbelievers do all those things in Jesus name, but yet Jesus called them evildoers, why? Because only he who does the will of my Father who is in Heaven will enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
And for Matt 5:29-30, unfortunatelly, Jesus means it literally. I can back it up, but it is a Catholic thing, if you don't open your mind, you won't believe it.
You assume that the "Many" in Matt 7:22 are believers? If they are believers how can Jesus not know them? Haven't you heard of cults, or people who incorporate Christianity into other religions?
Matt 5:29-30? You Opus Dei?
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:"based on standard Bible-speak...." from where is your source and who decides the standard? If you can convince me that Jesus is teaching us (from scriputre) that only Christians (Sheeps) can do good deeds and Non-Christians (Goats) cannot do good deeds, I will retink......
If going to heaven is not salvation ?? then what is ??
How to rethink - based on hearsay??
Did I say that only Christians can do good deeds and non-Christians cannot do good deeds? I am saying that in this analogy, the FIRST differentiation is NOT really about the good works, but the fact that the people were already divided in Christians and non-Christians. People who are Christians already found salvation and the result of that salvation is that they do good works. Otherwise why use the imagery of sheep and goats....?? Why not white sheep and black sheep??
Salvation is, strictly speaking, NOT ABOUT GOING TO HEAVEN. Going to heaven is a byproduct of salvation.
Salvation is, in simple English, accepting Jesus as your personal saviour and in doing so, having one's life cleanse from sin and allowing Christ to take over your life.
If you can prove that you are sinless and blameless 24/7, than we can talk more about salvation with works.
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Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:
I did not see Jesus saying sheeps are believers while goats are not. If you are basing on your own interpretation, then how to go on?
You might as well include Catholics into the goat...... since it's is up to you to say.
If Jesus wants to says believers and non-believers, He would have just said that.
this one quite funny hor.....
then why did Jesus call himself the Bridegroom and the church His Bride? Duh!
let me then ask you a question.... your own interpretation is based on why hah?
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
Isaiah 53:6 - For we all like sheep has gone astray
Psalms 23 - The Lord is my shepherd etc etc
plus tons of other verses linking followers of Jesus to be sheep....
the context of the Matthew verse is about deeds that we do UNKNOWINGLY.
.... however you can choose not to accept that explanation.
Not disputing that the Lord is our Shepherd but in this parable, how did sheeps auto become christians or believers?
UNKOWING is when you have done to one of your brothers or sisters, you have done it to me OR meaning if you have shown love to one of your brothers and sisters, you have shown love to me.
Isn't it clear that Jesus is telling us that those are the things we are to do? Isn't doing those an act of loving our neigbhour?
If you says UNKNOWING, are you saying those goats are those who UNKNOWING did not do all those things?
And if they did not do UNKNOWING, why they did not go heaven leh?
Or is Jesus now telling us point blank that this is what we must do - so no more UNKOWING EXCUSES ?
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
You assume that the "Many" in Matt 7:22 are believers? If they are believers how can Jesus not know them? Haven't you heard of cults, or people who incorporate Christianity into other religions?
Matt 5:29-30? You Opus Dei?
It not assume, it is hinted very obvious already, it is very simple to understand. If Jesus mean it is unbeliever, He would say something like "If you don't believe me , away from me evildoers".
What Jesus trying to tell us is, we may know Him and do all those things in His name, but if we don't do the will of my Father, I don't know you, go away.
You just need open your mind and use simple reasoning, don't let your imagination run wild :)
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
Sure I can ponder, but can you? Note: no one, dumb2 and myself included are saying that we should NOT DO good works. We are saying that good works and salvation do not necessary go hand in hand.... to go beyond the DIFFERENCE in DEFINITION of FAITH, I think that there is a great divide over what we think SALVATION is.
I did not says that you guys said "should NOT DO good works". dumbdumb have been repeating faith leads to good works. So if faith don't lead to good work? Will they be saved?
I never dispute salvation is by faith but I don't think faith alone. As James had said, faith without deeds is DEAD!
So now we need to ponder what salvation is......
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
Did I say that only Christians can do good deeds and non-Christians cannot do good deeds? I am saying that in this analogy, the FIRST differentiation is NOT really about the good works, but the fact that the people were already divided in Christians and non-Christians. People who are Christians already found salvation and the result of that salvation is that they do good works. Otherwise why use the imagery of sheep and goats....?? Why not white sheep and black sheep??
Salvation is, strictly speaking, NOT ABOUT GOING TO HEAVEN. Going to heaven is a byproduct of salvation.
Salvation is, in simple English, accepting Jesus as your personal saviour and in doing so, having one's life cleanse from sin and allowing Christ to take over your life.
If you can prove that you are sinless and blameless 24/7, than we can talk more about salvation with works.
Your explanation did not gel with that parable.....why not believer and non-believer?
So now going to heaven is not salvation. Salvation means can go to hell too? So Jesus says eternal life in hell? Where is the kingdom of God?
Since when that I said must be sinless and blameless 24/7? What has that got to do with salvation and deeds ?
Deeds is simply to show love and compassion as per this parable.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
this one quite funny hor.....
then why did Jesus call himself the Bridegroom and the church His Bride? Duh!
let me then ask you a question.... your own interpretation is based on why hah?
Yes, very funny if we twist the parable to suite our cause by this and that when it is clear what the parable is all about.
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Originally posted by kopiosatu:
religion is bullshit - george carlin
i'm a christian but i still have a sense of humour.
exact reason why I "converted" from a christian to an Atheist.