Don't worry I m still alive.
We are probably way too timid when it comes to preaching as compare to our Protestant brothers and sisters. The reason might me that through out history the interpretation of the bible is only limited to religious leaders. As for info, to be a priest you need to spend around 10 years to learn about theology, in short most of us feel we are not qualified, and this leads to lack of understanding of our own faith among us. In the Church layman not suppose to even read the Gospel, only the OT, Acts and Letters, anything other than 4 Gospels.
Not even all Priest considered good preacher, there are certain religious orders are good or specialist at preaching, for example i think it is the Redeptionarist (of the Novena Church)
I won't say that prayer for the dead is weak, and it is not only to comfort the relative of the dead, but I can understand where you are coming from.
Originally posted by malcom:Don't worry I m still alive.
We are probably way too timid when it comes to preaching as compare to our Protestant brothers and sisters. The reason might me that through out history the interpretation of the bible is only limited to religious leaders. As for info, to be a priest you need to spend around 10 years to learn about theology, in short most of us feel we are not qualified, and this leads to lack of understanding of our own faith among us. In the Church layman not suppose to even read the Gospel, only the OT, Acts and Letters, anything other than 4 Gospels.
Not even all Priest considered good preacher, there are certain religious orders are good or specialist at preaching, for example i think it is the Redeptionarist (of the Novena Church)
I won't say that prayer for the dead is weak, and it is not only to comfort the relative of the dead, but I can understand where you are coming from.
good. then do something about it.
Wah, suddenly this topic springs into life liao.....I know that Catholic and Protestant will never agree on this.
If faith leads to good works and salvation is by faith alone - what does that mean?
If it feels good to know that one is saved (like those teaching of once saved always saved) by faith and that's a done deal. So be it.
What I am saying here is that this was not supported by the bible completely. Dumbdumb cannot prove and did not show from biblical point of view....All this about going to church and love God.....from where?
Sorry that dumbdumb feel offended.
If salvation is by faith alone, all Christians will confirm go Heaven. If you says not all Christians have good or correct faith, then you are attaching conditions to faith. An arguement that will contradict your positions right?
Why did Jesus says that : "It is not those who say to me, "Lord, Lord", who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of my father in heaven"?? MT7:21
There are various other instances (some I lready mentionedd in my earlier posts) in the 4 Gospels that Jesus warn us about getting into heaven. Do we even bother to listen to Him?
dumbdumb said he disputed what I said, but which part of the bible was quoted wrongly to support my view? I did not remember reading one....
I am not here to win, just to discuss.....your view and mine but must have basis from the bible. Then we can all reflect and search and find the truth right?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:is there a difference between "salvation" and "faith"?
to my totally unlearned mind:
Salvation - a specific point in time that one receives Jesus as Lord and saviour.
Faith - a mindset of belief based on the Bible to enable one to carry on living the way one is suppose to live in congruent to scriptural teachings. (definitions my own, so if I am wrong, don't call me a heretic)
So, can one have faith without works - I don't think so....
But can one have salvation without works - Yes, because salvation is unconditional with the exception of one's desire to be saved.
... i am not even sure if i am even following the trend of argument....
I believed that salvation is when we believed that Jesus Christ (who died on the cross for us) is our saviour. To believe in this, we need our faith and as you said, "So, can one have faith without works - I don't think so...." so that settle the score right?
Maybe not because that is also my own definitions....
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:Wah, suddenly this topic springs into life liao.....I know that Catholic and Protestant will never agree on this.
If faith leads to good works and salvation is by faith alone - what does that mean?
If it feels good to know that one is saved (like those teaching of once saved always saved) by faith and that's a done deal. So be it.
What I am saying here is that this was not supported by the bible completely. Dumbdumb cannot prove and did not show from biblical point of view....All this about going to church and love God.....from where?
Sorry that dumbdumb feel offended.
If salvation is by faith alone, all Christians will confirm go Heaven. If you says not all Christians have good or correct faith, then you are attaching conditions to faith. An arguement that will contradict your positions right?
Why did Jesus says that : "It is not those who say to me, "Lord, Lord", who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of my father in heaven"?? MT7:21
There are various other instances (some I lready mentionedd in my earlier posts) in the 4 Gospels that Jesus warn us about getting into heaven. Do we even bother to listen to Him?
dumbdumb said he disputed what I said, but which part of the bible was quoted wrongly to support my view? I did not remember reading one....
I am not here to win, just to discuss.....your view and mine but must have basis from the bible. Then we can all reflect and search and find the truth right?
just came back from the wake. Yes! i dispute what you say that good works are needed for salvation!
Fine, i'll quote an entire paragraph for you. Since you're too thick to understand my quote.
Jesus annointed by a sinful woman. (Luke 7:36 - 50)
I'll retype this instead of quoting word for word, for convenience sake.
Here, it is written, that Jesus was invited to a Pharisee's house for dinner. The pharasees as we know, are one of the schools of thought of judaism, icemoon, can probably explain better, but i'll just classify them as a religious leader of sorts.
the pharasees were religious people, people of rules and regulations, they were strict about following the laws of God, definitely holy people. They fast, they pray, they obey God's commandments. They're the equalvalent of the modern day priest, or pastor.
And what do we see here? Out of nowhere, a sinful woman appeared, most probably a prostitute, and peered into the crowd, trying to spot Jesus. The bible says that she learned that Jesus would be having dinner at this religious leader's house. How did she hear it? I don't know, most probably she heard Jesus preaching and overheard the pharisee inviting Jesus. She was definitely not invited. But what drove her to Jesus' house? She's a prostitute, and she knows that everyone knows that she's a prostitute. If I am a prostitute, I would definitely not go to a place filled with holy people. But why did she do that? Did she hear Jesus preach in the streets? Was the message a message of fear and condemnation, that if she didn't follow His way, she was doomed to the pits of hell? or did she hear the message of love and acceptance?
I'm sure it's because she heard the message of love and acceptance from Jesus. Because it's evident from her actions. She brought along with her a jar of really expensive perfume, probably her only jar, which costed her everything, and showered Jesus with love. Using her tears to wet his feet, and her hair to dry them. And annointed His feet with the perfume.
And all the holy people were shocked, the bible reveals to us the private thoughts of the pharisee. "Iook at that disgusting SINFUL prostitute! How can Jesus, the self-proclaimed son of God, allow such a sinful person to touch Him?? Does He know who she has touched or what she has done with those hands which are touching His feet? How disgusting!"
And Jesus heard it, and simply replied, that this woman, does what she does, because she is driven by the love of God.
This pharisee, also heard the same message that Jesus preached. But look at the content of his heart. Sure, he does everything right, and according to the laws of God and the prophets, but his heart is empty of love. He does good works his entire life, but he didn't do it because he loves God.
Washing of feet is customary to the jews of that time, again, icemoon please confirm for me, it's an act of courtesy. The pharisee, and the sinful woman, both heard the same message, and yet, they both responded differently from each other. The sinful woman's heart was filled with love, and automatically, good works pour out from her.
The pharisee, on the other hand, who was holy in the sight of man, who did good works his entire life (in modern terms - going to church, going to cell, praying, fasting, blah blah blah) didn't even show common courtesy to Jesus. His works weren't driven by love, but probabily by obligation, and become routine for him.
And Jesus honoured the woman above the pharisee. And He said this loving words to her, "Your sins are forgiven, Your faith has saved you, go in peace"
And the object lesson which Jesus pointed out is this:
He who has been forgiven much, loves much, He who has been forgiven little, loves little.
Forgiveness comes first, then love sets in, and good works will come after that. That's how it is.
Again, I will mention, to those obviously deaf and blind to the love of God, - A christian, who loves God, will goto church, but a christian who goes to church, may not love God. A person who is saved, and knows the cost of salvation, and rests securely in love, and loves in return, will automatically produce good works of love. But a person who does good works, may not be saved.
Was it the woman's faith, when she accepted and fully trusted the love of Jesus, which saved her? Or her good works which saved her? Because if you're talking about good works, She only did one good work, at that point of time, the rest of her life was in sin.
Whereas the pharisee, who lived his entire life in good work, was put to shame by Jesus.
So now, about you? Do you think at this point in life, you are saved by God?
and the reason why you, can't understand that concept, is because you probably never yet, felt dry and empty. or maybe you never even noticed, or maybe you don't even care.
but i have. it's a long story, but i'll give a summarized version. once i had to help out someone every sunday, to goto church. i had to wake up especially early, travel down to the person's house, carry that person down a few flight of stairs, because that person was wheelchair bound, so that the person can go to church.
it was fine for the first few weeks, but after months and months, ugly thoughts start to seep in. annoyance, and frustration. complains from me started to appear in the form of low mutters and annoyed looks on my face. but i still did my duty.
but i found the burden so heavy, i was so sick of going to church, all sweaty and sticky, especially after i just showered up.
but it was very timely that the sermon of that day was talking abt Jesus sacrifice for us. Who are we to complain, when the King did so much more for us. I was touched, and I renewed that love, and I stop finding my duty a burden, in fact I did it with joy.
the point is. i was already doing good work. but the heart of the good work is different. before, i was doing it out of duty and obligation.. after, i did it out of love.
LimKopi, you'd be a fool to think that anyone who goes to church or does good works, are showing signs of a true christian. Because you don't know why they're doing it.
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.
It is a gift. Salvation is a gift. Do you pay for the gift someone gives you for free? Zzz.
ok la, tell you what. you can go ahead and live your life, forever trying to please God, wondering if you've made the mark, wondering if you're even saved to begin with, if that's what you want.
I'll live my life, knowing first, that I'm saved, loved and accepted for who I am, and resting in that love, and allow Christ who started a good work in me, to finish it. And I believe that as God's love grow in me, I'll automatically desire to do good works, knowing that it will please Him, and never having to worry that God's going to cut me off from the family fortune, if I slip up.
Jesus loves me so much, he gave all for me.
vs
I love Jesus so much, i'll give all for him.
Would u say one's more Christ-centred than the other? What would u deem less self-centred?
We were told, stop asking so much, it's time to give. I say, i'd stay basking in Christ's love for me. I'd stay asking from Him who is my Source. My love is limited. My love can fail. My works/ministries/givings are not perfect, i can't count on them.
BUT
Christ's work is perfect, Christ's love never fails, Christ can be counted on, the same yesterday, today, and forever! =D
I'd choose the former as Christ-centredness. Who can do it the way he does? We've all fallen short. :) The secret of the Apostle John - the disciple whom Jesus loves (that phrase only found in his own gospel) - is knowing he's loved. Peter may boast abt his loyalty, but John had the revelation. :P
Christianity isn't about works, and what you can do for God, but its about faith and what God has done for you.
I just got back from the wake. This is her testimony I'd like to share on her behalf.
On 4th August 07, while waiting for my best friend to finish her
meeting with her fellow shareholders of the cafe. Another friend of
hers, named Lorina had a chat with me. She then started sharing the
gospel with me. I was simply amazed by the many miraculous things that
He has made in our lives. The things that He has created is just so
simple yet beautiful. Personally, I feel that believing in this words
(Bible), is actually a way of teaching us and/or moulding us to become
a better person. How can we find the right way of teaching? By the word
of mouth of our parents or elderly. Yet, all the right teaching is
actually recorded entirely in the Holy Bible.
This is the truth to me.
During the conversation with Lorina, I had felt a strong presence (Holy
Spirit) that is with me. I had this urge to know more about Him, and I
trust that Jesus is our risen Savior. Hence, Lorina asked if I trust in
Christ; do I believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins? I
replied her "I do". Having said that, Lorina guided me to say a prayer
- At that moment, when I finished my last sentence, I just felt a very
strong calming presence and peace was with me. I am very happy
throughout the trip to Sydney. Sometimes I feel that this is God's
arrangement for me to know Him and building my faith in Him. This is so
wonderful bcause before I known Him, He has already known me. Praise
the Lord!
Lastly, Lorina told me about this verse in Psalm 23:1.
That Jesus is our Sheperd, He will not leave you alone.
..
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:I believed that salvation is when we believed that Jesus Christ (who died on the cross for us) is our saviour. To believe in this, we need our faith and as you said, "So, can one have faith without works - I don't think so...." so that settle the score right?
Maybe not because that is also my own definitions....
here's where the problem is....
"I believed that salvation is when we believed that Jesus Christ (who died on the cross for us) is our saviour." - this to me, points to a one time event. So, yes, I need the faith AT THIS POINT of time to believe. The belief do not stop, but the faith may wane sometime or other..... so when faith wanes and the works fluctuates.... does that take away the salvation... that had happened one time in the past?
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:Why did Jesus says that : "It is not those who say to me, "Lord, Lord", who will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the person who does the will of my father in heaven"?? MT7:21
The context of Matt 7 - Matthew 7 is a series of extremely short messages - almost like a one liner -that started with Matthew 5.
The portion where Verse 21 is has got to do with false prophets, therefore the context of the verse is about the people at that time prophesizing in Jesus' name, and when read, it has to be read together with verses 22 and 23:
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
If one is tempted to link this verse to normal folks, then I think we are in deep trouble because, the people mentioned inthis verses "prophesy in" Jesus name, and in Jesus' name "drive out demons and perform many miracles". None of us come close to that, and yet these folks are told that Jesus "never knew" them.
The chapters from 5 onwards carry a huge amount of analogies, one of which is:
29If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.
So do we take this literally? Obviously not!
so mrlim... is your salvation assured? based on your definition, none of our salvation is assured, because it all hinges in the good works that we've done, and who's to say it's enough?
or how about, I've spent the last month doing good work, and today I sinned, shortly later I die.... do I have salvation?
to paraphrase dumb2.... this kind of salvation plan - quite cocked up.
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:If faith leads to good works and salvation is by faith alone - what does that mean?
the key words are: ALONE and LEADS TO.... they are quite different in meaning and takes place in different time zone.
...having said all that.... I don't believe this discussion is going anywhere as you have already pointed out, that there is a great difference in the matter between Catholics and Protestants.
...perhaps, at the end of the day... it doesn't really matter.
...God will welcome all of us in, the learned and the ignorant, the poor and the rich, the scholars and the illiterate villager...
and another thing. the thief who got pked beside Jesus. He didn't have any works to show for it, except a life of sin - stealing, killing, destroying. All he had was the mustard seed of faith mustered in him, when he saw the sign "King of the Jews", and that same small faith drove him to ask Jesus if He loved him enough to remember him.
And Jesus did. No works, no baptism, no nothing. Except faith. Faith that only Jesus could see.
and that's very comforting, but sure, if you want to make life difficult for yourself, like most other catholics do, be my guest.
and i'll repeat all these for your sake. Since you pointed out the following verses
Regarding MT 5:13-16 - A little article that you may find interesting:
Luke 14:34-35 AMP Salt is good [an excellent thing], but if salt has lost its strength and has become saltless (insipid, flat), how shall its saltness be restored? (35) It is fit neither for the land nor for the manure heap; men throw it away. He who has ears to hear, let him listen and consider and comprehend by hearing!
The Living Bible gives a modern slant to Jesus’ warning:
“What good is salt that has lost its saltiness? Flavorless salt is fit for nothing - not even for fertilizer. It is worthless and must be thrown out. Listen well if you would understand my meaning.”
It may sound unusual to read of salt losing its saltiness, yet salt has different grades of quality and purity. Even today, only the highest grade of salt reaches the dining table. Most poorer grades of salt are used in industrial processes.
In ancient times, salt was rarely pure. During Biblical times, most salt in Israel came from the Dead Sea and was often mixed with impurities, making the salt less salty. There were also conditions in which salt could be leached out or made less effective, through exposure to water, air, excessive sunlight or even other chemicals. The Victor Bible Background Commentary informs us:
“In Israel salt was mined from a great ledge of rock salt lying near the Dead Sea and evaporated from that Sea’s waters. The rock salt deteriorated in high temperatures, and moisture could leach the salt from the rock. Thus this important product could lose its saltiness - and become absolutely worthless.“
In a similar vein, “flakes of salt form on the rock shores of the Dead Sea at night. In the morning the sun rises. Under its heat the salt loses is saltiness. It blends with the shore and loses its distinctiveness.”
To illustrate this leaching process, Marvin Vincent quotes the following story:
“A merchant of Sidon, having farmed of the government the revenue from the importation of salt, brought over a great quantity from the marshes of Cyprus - enough, in fact, to supply the whole province for many years. This he had transferred to the mountains, to cheat the government out of some small percentage of duty. Sixty-five houses were rented and filled with salt. Such houses have merely earthen floors, and the salt next the ground was in a few years entirely spoiled. [L]arge quantities of it [were] literally thrown into the road to be trodden under foot of men and beasts. It was ‘good for nothing.”
Salt can lose its saltiness if it is adulterated with inferior substances. In the same way, your distinctiveness as a follower of Jesus can be watered down if you mix a biblical lifestyle with the world’s lifestyle.
We are indeed called to be salt and light of this world, but this doesn't have anything to do with salvation. It is the result of salvation, it is the result of experiecing the love of God and thus we are able to do good works - driven by love and purpose. it doesn't say that if we're not the salt and light of this world, we lose our salvation. But it is right, that we become useless, if we lose that light or salitiness. Having seen people who got seduced by the material world, they forget that they're only in this world temperorily, and they got sucked into it.
Regarding Matthew 7:21-27
Correct, not everyone who calls him Lord, will enter heaven. But do you know what the will of the Father is? the only time this phrase is explicitly explained is this:
John 6:40
For my Father's will is
that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have
eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last
day."
Not everyone who calls Jesus, "Lord", or attends church, attends cell group or sing christian songs, attends planetshakers concerts and yes, even doing christian work like evangelism etc, will be allowed into heaven. The only way into heaven is through Jesus, through looking to the Son and believing in Him. That's the only condition, that's the only salvation plan. The only name given unto men which we must be saved.
Regarding JAS 2:14-20:
Like I said before, works are not part of salvation. But works reflect the faith in the believer. A Christian who loves god, will do good works, but a person who does good work, may not love God, or may not even be a christian.
Once I attended FCBC, and I heard the speaker (it should be that pastor lawrance) gave a short testimony. once he joined this christian organization, and he fooled the people into thinking he's a christian (he got say why, but I forgot). He does evangelism, prays, attends bible studies etc. And he actually rose among their ranks, and became the head. What a surprise for everyone when one day, during an evangelism rally, he walked up to receive the Lord.
And I have a personal friend, when I was in Hope of God (and that's why that church is horrendous, they are so desperate for leaders that they'll let anyone to be leader) with him, he actually became a cell leader without actually believing in Christ. I mean, he confessed to me later that, he believe the existance, but he don't.. believe believe, you know? Sure you can cast out demons in Jesus' name, but you may not be a believer. You may do good works, but what drives the good works? Unless it is the love for God, which is born by the faith in Christ's FINISHED work, that drives the good works, then it is right. You won't lose your salvation if you choose not to rise as a cell leader etc. That's christ's finished work. But when you have really received and gain confidence in that finished work, good works will automatically come out of you, which is the faith, accompanied by action. What are the signs? I think these could be part of it.
When people are talking "christianese", you get excited, you have testimonies to share, you want to give glory to God. When people get on your nerves, and you lose your temper, you consciously remember that Christ asked us to love everyone, and you ask for forgiveness for it, and you try to remember not to do it again, but knowing that you will slowly change for the better in Christ. When there is an opportunity to preach Christ to a searching person, you take it, and when someone receives Christ, you feel so joyful inside.
In the end. I still say this. A christian who loves God, will go to church, but a christian who goes to church, may not love God.
Hi,
I think both Catholic and Protestant believed in the same thing. Yes, I believed that our salvation is assured.
Catholic : Salvation by faith and deeds
Protestant : Salvation by faith alone (and faith leads to works).
I think the deeds parts can be found in MT25:31-46 and Jesus said what he did for a reason. Nobody has commented on that yet.
It simply means deeds = compassion, care and love for your neighbour.
Never had I said that salvation is by works alone and never had I said one will be judge by the works alone.
One should never worried about their salvation because it is the spirit of doing that deeds that counts as Jesus said : If you have done it to one of my brothers or sisters, you have done it to me.
I applaud dumbdumb for what he did to help someone to church which are deeds that I am talking about. Not attending church, reading bible, joining cellgroups etc....
One should worry about the salvation if they never intend to do any deeds as what Jesus as taught.
Even if one does out of fear (of God), I think it is still better than one who simply don't care because he think he has been saved.
MT 7:21-27 is about true disciple and not false prophets - read till the end.
The act of Jesus washing his disciple's feets is a show of his humility as well as what he meant when He said that the son of God is here to serve, not be served. Doing it for the disciple, he tells them that If the Lord can serve you (by washing your feet), you have no excuse not to serve others.
Of course Jesus is compassionate, loving, forgiving and since when was that disputed.
I prefer to listen and follow Jesus. No I am never unsecured about my salvation or busy working for it. If you prefer to "wait for your faith" to "lead you" to works (going to church, join cell group bla bla bla) it's your choice. Like James said, faith without deeds is DEAD!
dumbdumb should also know that Catholics are Christians. I will not join you in names calling and hurling abuses.
I agree with Chin Eng that this discussion is going nowhere unless we try to see each other's point with an open mind.
God bless all.
lol, oh so now we're on equal grounds? before that you branded me a heretic! and swept aside everything i've said as nonsense which isn't supported by the bible! and you still haven't acknowledged what i've pointed out in luke! and why would you think that your salvation is assured? based on what? have you done enough? maybe you got angry today, or you snubbed someone (like me?), how? sin already wat. what if you didn't know, and you didn't confess it? is God going to take note that you slipped up at this point?
so it's ok, if you brand me a heretic and totally misquoting the bible, AND blatently saying that i'm running away from answering your questions, when it's you who can't get anything into your thick skull, but it's not ok for me to point out that catholics are totally USELESS in evangelism? (which is true by the way), you two-headed snake.
and yes, the sheep and the goats, did he say that they're all christians? He said eveyone from all nations will be gathered before him. There will be believers, and non-believers. the good and the wicked.. the seeds sown by Jesus, and the seeds sown by the devil. That's how i see it, faithless as i am.
Originally posted by despondent:u must understand tat there r christians who have been taught tat catholics r not christians simply cos they dun follow christ but follow virgin mary…i dun agree wif such a stand but i noe where they r coming from…n some catholics realli believe in gd works so much tat it seems to dilute the original doctrine of salvation…
anyway, TS mentioned tat he has chosen to remain stubborn on the issue concerning 2cor6:14…he mentioned tat his church members have told im to leave the gal…wad r all ur comments on tis???
lol i left that church, what do you think my comment is? =x
ok la, seriously. it is very difficult to grow as a christian, if your gf isn't one. in the end, she'll ask you to choose between God and her. so how?
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:Hi,
I think both Catholic and Protestant believed in the same thing. Yes, I believed that our salvation is assured.
Catholic : Salvation by faith and deeds
Protestant : Salvation by faith alone (and faith leads to works).
I think the deeds parts can be found in MT25:31-46 and Jesus said what he did for a reason. Nobody has commented on that yet.
It simply means deeds = compassion, care and love for your neighbour.
Never had I said that salvation is by works alone and never had I said one will be judge by the works alone.
One should never worried about their salvation because it is the spirit of doing that deeds that counts as Jesus said : If you have done it to one of my brothers or sisters, you have done it to me.
I applaud dumbdumb for what he did to help someone to church which are deeds that I am talking about. Not attending church, reading bible, joining cellgroups etc....
One should worry about the salvation if they never intend to do any deeds as what Jesus as taught.
Even if one does out of fear (of God), I think it is still better than one who simply don't care because he think he has been saved.
MT 7:21-27 is about true disciple and not false prophets - read till the end.
The act of Jesus washing his disciple's feets is a show of his humility as well as what he meant when He said that the son of God is here to serve, not be served. Doing it for the disciple, he tells them that If the Lord can serve you (by washing your feet), you have no excuse not to serve others.
Of course Jesus is compassionate, loving, forgiving and since when was that disputed.
I prefer to listen and follow Jesus. No I am never unsecured about my salvation or busy working for it. If you prefer to "wait for your faith" to "lead you" to works (going to church, join cell group bla bla bla) it's your choice. Like James said, faith without deeds is DEAD!
dumbdumb should also know that Catholics are Christians. I will not join you in names calling and hurling abuses.
I agree with Chin Eng that this discussion is going nowhere unless we try to see each other's point with an open mind.
God bless all.
and my point is this. i did the good work, at first out of obligation, and i did it unwillingly and complained and whined, what worth is that? will that earn me my salvation? if salvation is based on faith and work?
it was ONLY AND ONLY AFTER i realised what Christ did for me, and how much MORE i have received, how much MORE He gave up, and AFTER i compared my situation and His, then i changed my perspective. and that came after i am already resting securely on my salvation. I didn't do it with the thought of earning my place. I wouldn't need to. If you're trying to earn your place, you will do it, with the purpose on earning your place, meaning the good work is insincere, in a way
that's good work, driven by love.
i mean, really la, if Jesus could see my heart, and see that I did good work, not because I love my fellow neighbour, but it's more like a weak way of carrying balls to earn some points, as some trade off of sorts, He'd be disgusted also la.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:lol, oh so now we're on equal grounds? before that you branded me a heretic! and swept aside everything i've said as nonsense which isn't supported by the bible! and you still haven't acknowledged what i've pointed out in luke! and why would you think that your salvation is assured? based on what? have you done enough? maybe you got angry today, or you snubbed someone (like me?), how? sin already wat. what if you didn't know, and you didn't confess it? is God going to take note that you slipped up at this point?
so it's ok, if you brand me a heretic and totally misquoting the bible, AND blatently saying that i'm running away from answering your questions, when it's you who can't get anything into your thick skull, but it's not ok for me to point out that catholics are totally USELESS in evangelism? (which is true by the way), you two-headed snake.
and yes, the sheep and the goats, did he say that they're all christians? He said eveyone from all nations will be gathered before him. There will be believers, and non-believers. the good and the wicked.. the seeds sown by Jesus, and the seeds sown by the devil. That's how i see it, faithless as i am.
when did I brand you anything ? I only says you never support what you say from the bible as you keep stressing people go to church bla bla bla.......but never did explain.
You provide answers only after I says that you are escaping....Can you blame others for coming to such conclusion? Only now did you raise your views on the last judgement.
You are right that He says sheeps and goats and not Christians or beleivers (something I pointed to you when I quote to you) - so not all Christians are saved? It seems like you are saying non-christians also can be saved if they belong to the group "sheep" - right? How did one get to sheep or goat side? By faith alone?
Or did I read you wrongly again?
Everything else about you is revealed by yourself (not by me branding you) - perhaps from guilt. Read thru and see for yourself - you are getting too personal.
My stand from the start has never changed. No, I will not join you in name callings etc....
If you refuse to read and search with an open mind, it's up to you.
The truth speaks for itself and Catholic Churches is the oldest surviving Church that dated back to Jesus's time (dispute all you want) And still thriving all around the world. Useless ? You judging ? Ha..Ha..Ha..
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:and my point is this. i did the good work, at first out of obligation, and i did it unwillingly and complained and whined, what worth is that? will that earn me my salvation? if salvation is based on faith and work?
it was ONLY AND ONLY AFTER i realised what Christ did for me, and how much MORE i have received, how much MORE He gave up, and AFTER i compared my situation and His, then i changed my perspective. and that came after i am already resting securely on my salvation. I didn't do it with the thought of earning my place. I wouldn't need to. If you're trying to earn your place, you will do it, with the purpose on earning your place, meaning the good work is insincere, in a way
that's good work, driven by love.
i mean, really la, if Jesus could see my heart, and see that I did good work, not because I love my fellow neighbour, but it's more like a weak way of carrying balls to earn some points, as some trade off of sorts, He'd be disgusted also la.
Originally posted by Mrlimkopi:when did I brand you anything ? I only says you never support what you say from the bible as you keep stressing people go to church bla bla bla.......but never did explain.
You provide answers only after I says that you are escaping....Can you blame others for coming to such conclusion? Only now did you raise your views on the last judgement.
You are right that He says sheeps and goats and not Christians or beleivers (something I pointed to you when I quote to you) - so not all Christians are saved? It seems like you are saying non-christians also can be saved if they belong to the group "sheep" - right? How did one get to sheep or goat side? By faith alone?
Or did I read you wrongly again?
Everything else about you is revealed by yourself (not by me branding you) - perhaps from guilt. Read thru and see for yourself - you are getting too personal.
My stand from the start has never changed. No, I will not join you in name callings etc....
If you refuse to read and search with an open mind, it's up to you.
The truth speaks for itself and Catholic Churches is the oldest surviving Church that dated back to Jesus's time (dispute all you want) And still thriving all around the world. Useless ? You judging ? Ha..Ha..Ha..
of course i'm angry! you swept everything i've said aside as rubbish, and only accepted them when i took the time to dig out the paragraph on luke! which means i went one big round to prove what I said was valid! and when i didn't, you said i was running away! how can i not be roused to anger and take it personally! i'm angry not because i feel guilty, but because my intelligence have been insulted!
and how dare you tell me to read and search with an open mind, when you couldn't even accept what I said, which was totally logical, and actually supported by the bible. But because you don't see the related bible verse, you automatically write it off as rubbish, heck, i don't even know if you bother reading though that big chunk i typed! You've never seen dry clueless christians before? People going to church, just for the sake of "marking attendance", and not because they love God and want to be in His presence? How can ANYONE not understand the concept I kept repeating?
and with regards to the sheep and goat. if i apply what He said about the seeds he sown, and the seeds the enemy sown, can i safely say that non believers are actually classified as sheep? seems safe to say so.
and of course. Unless you wish to contest that catholics are deeply involved in evangelism. then why in my entire life, catholics have always been admitting that they don't do evangelism, they believe religion is a personal thing. why it is always the christians who reach out to me and my family, while the catholic church stay silent.
And for my friend who passed away. if it was a catholic who was sitting beside her that day, would my friend pass away as a believer or a non-believer?
from the start, that's all you can say about the catholic church. that you're the greatest in number, the authentic goods, the real true undiluted real deal. i've heard it all, usually AFTER, christians did the sowing.
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:and of course. Unless you wish to contest that catholics are deeply involved in evangelism. then why in my entire life, catholics have always been admitting that they don't do evangelism, they believe religion is a personal thing. why it is always the christians who reach out to me and my family, while the catholic church stay silent.
if you look at it, protestants are the odd ones out. the odds are stacked against you?
Originally posted by Chin Eng:....which in itself, is a matter of concern....
....as some of us had suggested... shop around.
....a Christian, and to a larger extend the congregation (ie, the church) is called to be the light of the world and salt of the earth.... hence, we are called to be visible representation of God to the world of unbelief. If the candle loses it's light and the salt it's taste, then the representation no longer exists.
Wah lao, unker Chin Eng, long time no see. 1 thing I want to add, if people lose their souls, the world still exists.