My "Christian" Experience
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
hmm. i can't say that salvation is a lifelong process. but i say that, being made holy is a life long process.
we are saved, definitely, but the process of refining our characters to be more like Jesus, is a life long process. we are always going to stumble at one point or another, and each experience makes us stronger, each time we are delivered from our troubles, from our fears, from our struggles, we grow a little bigger, our faith grow a little stronger, our willingness to obey without resisting grows softer.
yup, so there will be those who might wish to split hair on how long the "salvation" process is.the ordo salutis thing is a little over my head.
the thing about such teaching is: how does it benefit the new illiterate believer in some backroads in some Shanxi province in China..... or the old auntie at the market?
we can sit around and postulate all we want because many of us are learned.... is the message of God so complex and profound that there is so many theories behind it? and that because we cannot understand the complexity, our salvation is now worthless?
I received Christ because I believed in Him.
Through His grace, I try to do my best.
Sometimes it doesn't work out that way.
Sometimes I mess up real bad.If I die today, do I still have my salvation?
Or do I deserve to lose my salvation just because I did not have one more day to make it right? -
Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
kidding, i read that already. maybe i didn't read it clearly, cuz i can't remember what it said. too busy with assignments sob
Seriously, once you read it, understand most of it, the argument about whether faith or work is needed for salvation will seem like a joke. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
You do good works 'cos you love God and you love your neighbors.
This principle is enshrined in the 10 commandments. Even Jews who don't have concept of salvation also know that.
That's why Jesus said everything summarised into love God and love neighbors. This is a Torah principle.
ok, corrected. i do it because i love God and i love my neghbours.
but my point is i don't do it because i'm afraid that if i don't do it, my name will be written off the book of life
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
ok, corrected. i do it because i love God and i love my neghbours.
but my point is i don't do it because i'm afraid that if i don't do it, my name will be written off the book of life
i totally agree with you on this one.i don't do good because of the conditions attached to it.
i'd be quite scared if doing good can get me salvation because how good is good?
... even those who heal and prophesized in the name of Christ also cannot enter into the kingdom of God.... i only made sure that the poor old lady is seated safely in the bus...
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
is there a difference between "salvation" and "faith"?
to my totally unlearned mind:
Salvation - a specific point in time that one receives Jesus as Lord and saviour.
Faith - a mindset of belief based on the Bible to enable one to carry on living the way one is suppose to live in congruent to scriptural teachings. (definitions my own, so if I am wrong, don't call me a heretic)
So, can one have faith without works - I don't think so....
But can one have salvation without works - Yes, because salvation is unconditional with the exception of one's desire to be saved.
... i am not even sure if i am even following the trend of argument....
From Websters online dictionary:
Salvation:
(Christianity) the act of delivering from sin or saving from evil.
It means that your sins are forgiven, it happend during baptism, so if you die on the spot after complete baptism, you will be saved from Hell, go straight to Heaven.
Suppose you kill someone after your baptism, then you die, where will you go? Straight to Hell.
Conclusion:
Do you need good work to attain salvation? When you received Jesus, you don't need to do any work to attain salvation.
Will you stay saved until the last day after you receive Jesus? No unless you keep your life holy. -
Originally posted by malcom:
From Websters online dictionary:
Salvation:
(Christianity) the act of delivering from sin or saving from evil.
It means that your sins are forgiven, it happend during baptism, so if you die on the spot after complete baptism, you will be saved from Hell, go straight to Heaven.
Suppose you kill someone after your baptism, then you die, where will you go? Straight to Hell.
Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.
Conclusion:
Do you need good work to attain salvation? When you received Jesus, you don't need to do any work to attain salvation.
Will you stay saved until the last day after you receive Jesus? No unless you keep your life holy.aiyah.... Matt 7:18 was written in the context of false prophets.
murder is obviously quite far left on the classification of sins lah.
say, if you lied to someone - does that invalidate your salvation.... bearing in mind that in God, all sins are the same... because "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"....
who can really keep his life totally holy 24/7.... gimme a break lah.
if nobody can keep his life holy 24/7, then we really have no assurance of salvation do we?
...basically, according to some, the assurance of salvation is to live a holy life 24/7... but we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God... salvation does not automatically make one do good... so sometimes we sin.... and all sins are the same.... so nobody goes to heaven....
heaven is a really empty place.
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Originally posted by malcom:
From Websters online dictionary:
Salvation:
(Christianity) the act of delivering from sin or saving from evil.
It means that your sins are forgiven, it happend during baptism, so if you die on the spot after complete baptism, you will be saved from Hell, go straight to Heaven.
Suppose you kill someone after your baptism, then you die, where will you go? Straight to Hell.
Conclusion:
Do you need good work to attain salvation? When you received Jesus, you don't need to do any work to attain salvation.
Will you stay saved until the last day after you receive Jesus? No unless you keep your life holy.lol. i get angry all the time. i murdered alot of ppl. i'm screwed.
there's a girl in my church.. she became a christian not long ago, and is due to be baptised next week, but she met with a bike accident, and died last sunday i'm going to the wake tonight. oh, she's going to hell, sucks that the salvation plan that God took thousands of years to come up with is so easily twarted by the devil.
lol, if the salvation plan is so easily torn apart, the devil wouldn't have spent so much effort in preventing the coming of the Christ, and God wouldn't take so long to strategise.
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Originally posted by Chin Eng:
aiyah.... Matt 7:18 was written in the context of false prophets.
murder is obviously quite far left on the classification of sins lah.
say, if you lied to someone - does that invalidate your salvation.... bearing in mind that in God, all sins are the same... because "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"....
who can really keep his life totally holy 24/7.... gimme a break lah.
if nobody can keep his life holy 24/7, then we really have no assurance of salvation do we?
...basically, according to some, the assurance of salvation is to live a holy life 24/7... but we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God... salvation does not automatically make one do good... so sometimes we sin.... and all sins are the same.... so nobody goes to heaven....
heaven is a really empty place.
Exactly, Jesus know that it is impossible for us all to be holy all the time, that is why we have confession (sacrament of reconciliation), and weekly sacrifice (the Mass). And of course on our part we have to feel sorry for our sins and show the act of contrition.
Matt 7:
13 'Enter by the narrow gate, since the road that leads to destruction is wide and spacious, and many take it;
14 but it is a narrow gate and a hard road that leads to life, and only a few find it.And if we die on minor sins (non mortal sins), we go to purgatory, in due time eventually will go to Heaven.
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Originally posted by malcom:
Exactly, Jesus know that it is impossible for us all to be holy all the time, that is why we have confession (sacrament of reconciliation), and weekly sacrifice (the Mass). And of course on our part we have to feel sorry for our sins and show the act of contrition.
Matt 7:
13 'Enter by the narrow gate, since the road that leads to destruction is wide and spacious, and many take it;
14 but it is a narrow gate and a hard road that leads to life, and only a few find it.And if we die on minor sins (non mortal sins), we go to purgatory, in due time eventually will go to Heaven.
ah. a catholic.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
lol. i get angry all the time. i murdered alot of ppl. i'm screwed.
there's a girl in my church.. she became a christian not long ago, and is due to be baptised next week, but she met with a bike accident, and died last sunday i'm going to the wake tonight. oh, she's going to hell, sucks that the salvation plan that God took thousands of years to come up with is so easily twarted by the devil.
lol, if the salvation plan is so easily torn apart, the devil wouldn't have spent so much effort in preventing the coming of the Christ, and God wouldn't take so long to strategise.
There is a section in the Mass that pray for the dead, there is also a dedicated day for the dead called All Souls Day.
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Originally posted by malcom:
There is a section in the Mass that pray for the dead, there is also a dedicated day for the dead called All Souls Day.
unfortunately, it wasn't the catholics who reached out to me and my family. for 16 years, it was never the catholics who pro-actively reached out to me. instead it was the christians. and what disgusted me was after getting trashing the christians for a good number of years for reaching out to me, and in turn, getting trashed by my parents for reaching out to them for 2 long years, before they were touched by God and received salvation
THEN the catholics appear out of no where in their groups, brought in by my catholic aunt, to try to bring us to the catholic faith. AFTER the hard work has been done, AFTER all the trashing was over, AFTER the percercution ended. they happily and dantily trotted into my house, and started telling us how great the catholic faith is, how many catholic churches there are compared to christian churches, how superior they are because christianity "started" from them etc.
sorry, but to say otherwise, would be hypocritical, but you all disgust me. and you'll have to forgive me for not taking your practices seriously.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
unfortunately, it wasn't the catholics who reached out to me and my family. for 16 years, it was never the catholics who pro-actively reached out to me. instead it was the christians. and what disgusted me was after getting trashing the christians for a good number of years for reaching out to me, and in turn, getting trashed by my parents for reaching out to them for 2 long years, before they were touched by God and received salvation
THEN the catholics appear out of no where in their groups, brought in by my catholic aunt, to try to bring us to the catholic faith. AFTER the hard work has been done, AFTER all the trashing was over, AFTER the percercution ended. they happily and dantily trotted into my house, and started telling us how great the catholic faith is, how many catholic churches there are compared to christian churches, how superior they are because christianity "started" from them etc.
sorry, but to say otherwise, would be hypocritical, but you all disgust me. and you'll have to forgive me for not taking your practices seriously.
Yeah, undestand, you need to forgive us also for being coward to declare Christ to our neighbours, even though He tells us to go and spread the Gospel to the world.
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Originally posted by malcom:
Yeah, undestand, you need to forgive us also for being coward to declare Christ to our neighbours, even though He tells us to go and spread the Gospel to the world.
then you will be kind enough to remain the coward and continue keeping your own views of salvation to yourself,
or, don't be the coward and share your views of salvation to your unbelieving neighbours.
but don't tell me what i believe in is wrong, because it came from people who cared about God, and people who cared about me. And NONE OF THEM, despite their proudly professed grand number of believers, were catholics,
in another words, earn your right to preach.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
then you will be kind enough to remain the coward and continue keeping your own views of salvation to yourself,
or, don't be the coward and share your views of salvation to your unbelieving neighbours.
but don't tell me what i believe in is wrong, because it came from people who cared about God, and people who cared about me.
in another words, earn your right to preach.
We do evangelize, but not the way other Christians do. By spreading good works to others, example: go to hospitals to pray for the sick, to prisons etc. We are doing that in hope that unbeliever feel the love of God, and then eventually seek God through us, then that is when we tell others about Christ and our faith.
Through out the history, we built Catholic schools, hospitals, foundations but never ask them to join our faith, unless they are moved by our actions and actively seek the Truth.
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Originally posted by malcom:
We do evangelize, but not the way other Christians do. By spreading good works to others, example: go to hospitals to pray for the sick, to prisons etc. We are doing that in hope that unbeliever feel the love of God, and then eventually seek God through us, then that is when we tell others about Christ and our faith.
Through out the history, we built Catholic schools, hospitals, foundations but never ask them to join our faith, unless they are moved by our actions and actively seek the Truth.
and on a personal level?
doing all these is right. good works reflect Christ-love. but it's not complete. if you don't extend an invitation of faith, if you never even let them know that there is such an invitation, it isn't effective. but, what about yourself, on a personal level, what have you done?
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Originally posted by malcom:
Exactly, Jesus know that it is impossible for us all to be holy all the time, that is why we have confession (sacrament of reconciliation), and weekly sacrifice (the Mass). And of course on our part we have to feel sorry for our sins and show the act of contrition.
Matt 7:
13 'Enter by the narrow gate, since the road that leads to destruction is wide and spacious, and many take it;
14 but it is a narrow gate and a hard road that leads to life, and only a few find it.And if we die on minor sins (non mortal sins), we go to purgatory, in due time eventually will go to Heaven.
...so if it impossible to be holy all the time, the point in time for our demise has to be measured correctly, otherwise when we are stuck between sins and kenna langar by car and die, too bad, so sad.
...obviously because of your interpretation of scripture through the Catholic, you'd use this verse to support purgatory.... but please quote a verse in the Bible that talks about major and minor sins.
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
and on a personal level?
doing all these is right. good works reflect Christ-love. but it's not complete. if you don't extend an invitation of faith, if you never even let them know that there is such an invitation, it isn't effective. but, what about yourself, on a personal level, what have you done?
On personal level, through my actions in school, works and family has brought few friends to the Catholic faith, but 1 of them crossed to the Protestant, perhaps we don't look 'on fire' like some of our Protestant brothers and sisters. Perhaps also we never measured by the number of people we convert.
We may look passive, but the faithfuls will always ready to offer help to others.
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Originally posted by malcom:
On personal level, through my actions in school, works and family has brought few friends to the Catholic faith, but 1 of them crossed to the Protestant, perhaps we don't look 'on fire' like some of our Protestant brothers and sisters. Perhaps also we never measured by the number of people we convert.
We may look passive, but the faithfuls will always ready to offer help to others.
and that's why i'm a protestant today. so please. don't tell me that the girl who put her trust in Jesus but died in a car accident went to hell, because she needs the prayers from the likes of you
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Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
.....sucks that the salvation plan that God took thousands of years to come up with is so easily thwarted by the devil.
lol, if the salvation plan is so easily torn apart, the devil wouldn't have spent so much effort in preventing the coming of the Christ, and God wouldn't take so long to strategise.
i was going to say the same thing.....
God so love the world that he wants everyone to believe in Him, but he places a precondition that everyone must be holy and sinless 24/7 in order to continue to receive salvation...
in the first place, is salvation a process or is it a one time thing?
ordo salutis, to me, sounds like another piece of work by some really bored scholars.
my condolences to your friend and her family....
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Relack lah, dumbdumb and malcom.
dumbdumb, you have to understand that both sides can learn from one another.
Caring about God is not limited to preaching, or Catholics would have failed miserably. After so many years, not a single Catholic stop me to talk about the four spiritual laws. Or talk about Christ to me. I never receive any tract from them. Wah leow.
But, note, Catholics are the only Christian denomination making a public stand for pro-life. Perhaps there are Methodists and Anglicans doing similar work, but just not as passionate like the Catholics. You know what Protestants are passionate about? 6 Days Creation! Anti Evolution! So they have this annual creation seminar held at St. Andrews Cathedral New Sanctuary. And many other smaller events, organized by certain denominations like the BPs.
Seriously .. for what? I rather they save their energy and saliva for more worthy causes like the Catholics.
So they cherish the sanctity of life. The sanctity of human marriage. They cherish what God holds dear.
They cherish tradition. While Protestant Christians are aligning more and more to secular forms of worship, Catholics are going back to their roots. The current Pope, he says the Latin Mass is ok.
It is hard to stop 'changes' creeping in. Many Protestants do not agree with the megachurches' way of worship. BUT you add one guitar today. Tomorrow you play it louder. Unknowingly.
This, if you agree with me, shouldn't be the way. You should be worshipping God. Non believers should THINK you are worshipping God. Those who can't see you, but hear your worship, should THINK you are worshipping God. If they THINK you are holding a concert or practising for the next Sg idol, then your worship is screwed up. You may disagree. But note the Bible says Christians should be the light and salt of the Earth.
If non believers see your worship and think of you as a tang kee, tell me, how is your evangelism going to succeed?
A hundred may respond to the altar call. But a thousand may have seen the NPNT peektures of christians in a trance (taken in CHC?) and think, what the heck is that?
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malcom, you, and your brethrens, doom people to hell, by not preaching the Word, then come around telling them that they are doomed because they didn't live their christian lives, your way. if people are doomed to hell, it would be your fault, because salvation comes from faith, and faith comes from hearing the Word. And the people who should preach it, didn't.
they were doomed because of ignorance, and you hastened the journey.
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
You know what Protestants are passionate about? 6 Days Creation! Anti Evolution! So they have this annual creation seminar held at St. Andrews Cathedral New Sanctuary. And many other smaller events, organized by certain denominations like the BPs.
i am not one of those....
i am the old earth creation type of folks....
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
Relack lah, dumbdumb and malcom.
dumbdumb, you have to understand that both sides can learn from one another.
Caring about God is not limited to preaching, or Catholics would have failed miserably. After so many years, not a single Catholic stop me to talk about the four spiritual laws. Or talk about Christ to me. I never receive any tract from them. Wah leow.
But, note, Catholics are the only Christian denomination making a public stand for pro-life. Perhaps there are Methodists and Anglicans doing similar work, but just not as passionate like the Catholics. You know what Protestants are passionate about? 6 Days Creation! Anti Evolution! So they have this annual creation seminar held at St. Andrews Cathedral New Sanctuary. And many other smaller events, organized by certain denominations like the BPs.
Seriously .. for what? I rather they save their energy and saliva for more worthy causes like the Catholics.
So they cherish the sanctity of life. The sanctity of human marriage. They cherish what God holds dear.
They cherish tradition. While Protestant Christians are aligning more and more to secular forms of worship, Catholics are going back to their roots. The current Pope, he says the Latin Mass is ok.
It is hard to stop 'changes' creeping in. Many Protestants do not agree with the megachurches' way of worship. BUT you add one guitar today. Tomorrow you play it louder. Unknowingly.
This, if you agree with me, shouldn't be the way. You should be worshipping God. Non believers should THINK you are worshipping God. Those who can't see you, but hear your worship, should THINK you are worshipping God. If they THINK you are holding a concert or practising for the next Sg idol, then your worship is screwed up. You may disagree. But note the Bible says Christians should be the light and salt of the Earth.
If non believers see your worship and think of you as a tang kee, tell me, how is your evangelism going to succeed?
A hundred may respond to the altar call. But a thousand may have seen the NPNT peektures of christians in a trance (taken in CHC?) and think, what the heck is that?
he annoys me.
lol i'm not totally comfortable with chc's style either. but i'll just quote my dad's experience.
before knowing Christ - he thinks all christians are out to brainwash me.
after knowing Christ - he's singing a different tune, and is now "brainwashing" people.
point is.. non christians are forever going to say stuff. until they know the truth for themselves.
and as for being pro-life. nothing wrong with that really. but why can't you be pro-life, and preach the Word too? my church preach against smoking, to divorce, to abortion, to homosexuality, but their number one concern will ALWAYS be the non-believers and their salvation.
EXACTLY! see, malcom? right from icemoon's mouth himself.
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in the end, non-believers are on a one way flight to the land of barbecue, because they didn't know. but catholics, they stamped the passport for them. clap clap, well done.
oh, even better yet! after someone dies, THEN they do something by offering something weak like prayers for the dead. it really sounds like a weak way of comforting your conscience THAT YOU COULD HAVE DONE SOMETHING ABOUT IT, WHILE THEY WERE ALIVE?
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grr