A few Qs
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this won't be first time, brey.Originally posted by breytonhartge:and why is someone a nut just because their ideology does not suit yours...
in other times, other folk's ideology can be because they haven't found the deeper truth
kekekeke -
It came from Luther.Originally posted by breytonhartge:I would be interested in the protestant's view of "understanding the cross"...
A short summary:http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=2646
Hmm .. cross-bearers .. how to be cross-bearers for Christ?
The "theology of the cross," as this phrase is used in Lutheran circles, usually refers to Martin Luther's insight that God reveals himself most clearly, graciously and "gloriously" not through obvious outward "blessings" or "spiritual experiences" or the "wisdom" of human reason (this is how a "theology of glory" seeks after God) but in the "hiddenness" and lowliness of the cross and sufferings--first and foremost, through the cross of Jesus Christ (1 Cor. 1:18-25), and then also through our identification with Christ's cross through faith (Gal. 2:20) and through our sharing in his sufferings as cross-bearers for him. -
Originally posted by specialOps:
Just curious. Who do you think understand Hebrew scriptures better. Rabbinic trained Rabbis or theological college trained nuts??
Before I answer further, are u a Jew?
Have u been to a theological college before?
Or are you just a nut? -
Rabbinical trained Rabbis have knowledge of the Oral Torah, which is an advantage. Many things cannot be appreciated unless one understands the Talmud and other Jewish writings.Originally posted by Creation1656:Just curious. Who do you think understand Hebrew scriptures better. Rabbinic trained Rabbis or theological college trained nuts??
On the other hand, a theological college trained nut with an academic degree in Jewish studies is ultimately not a practising Jew and lacks the spiritual understanding of things. -
Originally posted by breytonhartge:
They get the idea from the new testament.
actually where do the christians get the idea that there will be an eternal hell? -
Originally posted by breytonhartge:
Hell is created for the benefit of unbelievers of the new testament. In 'Hell', its PR will enjoy 24/7 eternal BBQ with eternal fire and maybe c/w broadband.
are you sure there will people burning in hell? -
Hell is preached in the old testament? How come Rabbinic Jews don't believe in "Hell"? Are you saying that Rabbinic Jews don't understand Hebrew scriptures that are written in their own language and cultures???Originally posted by specialOps:Haven't I already said?
It is clearly said in the bible in various parts, in the gospel, in the old testament, in book of Revelation...but its not the main theme.
The theme of the bible is God's love for His people -
Actually they do believe in some sort of hell.Originally posted by Creation1656:Hell is preached in the old testament? How come Rabbinic Jews don't believe in "Hell"? Are you saying that Rabbinic Jews don't understand Hebrew scriptures that are written in their own language and cultures???
In fact, there is a Jewish tradition that says hell was created on the 2nd day of creation because God did not say it was good. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
The Jewish concept of 'Hell' is totally different from the christian concept of 'Hell'.
Actually they do believe in some sort of hell.
In fact, there is a Jewish tradition that says hell was created on the 2nd day of creation because God did not say it was good.
Let me explain: Most Jews believe that Hell is a place God created to help them take care of the mistakes they didn't correct in this world. It is called Gehenom. It's not forever. If it is God's judgment that a person has to enter Gehenom, the maximum amount of time spent there would be one Jewish year. That is the reason Jews say Kaddish, the mourner's prayer, for 11 months.
Shalom -
Then where in the bible do you find this "special Jewish hell" ?
Its not true that only Jews can have the spiritual understanding of the gospel.
In Acts, the Holy Spirit was poured out to all who will receive Him. Understanding of scripture comes from illumination and revelation through the Holy Spirit.
Have you ever considered why from generation to generation in the Old Testament, the Jews went from one backsliding to another, and how in Jesus's days no Jew understood Jesus or the Scripture and had even added another thousand self-made commandments?
I'm not against the Jews, but its just incorrect to say only Jews can understand the Scripture, because the bible NEVER said that, and it has never been so throughout history. -
lol .. Creation1656's plan backfired.
now kenna shoot back like crazy. -
I let Creation1656 handle the backsliding part.Originally posted by specialOps:Have you ever considered why from generation to generation in the Old Testament, the Jews went from one backsliding to another, and how in Jesus's days no Jew understood Jesus or the Scripture and had even added another thousand self-made commandments?
But I question your assertion that Jews added another thousand self-made commandments. This is one point many Christians fail to stop and think and just accept what they hear.
In fact, the gospels constantly present the religious establishment as using the Law of Moses to weigh Jesus down. I do not remember any incident where Jesus said those were not from the Law of Moses.
The stoning of the adulterous woman was from the Law of Moses .. was it not?
(I believe Brey and Creation1656 know the ans .. but let's give the audience a chance to do some critical thinking .. after all Torah learning is an exploratory process
) -
Once again, I let Creation1656 handle the uber-tough question of the "special Jewish hell".Originally posted by specialOps:Then where in the bible do you find this "special Jewish hell" ?
Its not true that only Jews can have the spiritual understanding of the gospel.
And once again, you have misunderstood him. Wah, you seem to misunderstand a lot of people hor, both Christians and non Christians.
Actually what we mean is that Christians are not grounded in Jewish tradition (duh!). Our premise here is that the New Testament has to be interpreted in the light of Jewish tradition. The apostles were Jewish and the gospel was written primarily for a Jewish audience. Whether you are pro-xtian or anti-xtian, the Christian phenomenon cannot be understood without reading the text under a Jewish lens.
We can go into topics if you want. I can show you how many of your preconceived understanding of the Scripture are actually wrong.
Don't give the crap that the Holy Spirit can enlighten you with the understanding. Don't you realize the Spirit has a bad track record, if you look at history? 36000 Protestant denominations .. what do you think? -
Originally posted by specialOps:
Perhaps, specialOps would like to know that when we discussed the 'Jewish concept of Hell', it was discussed in the context of the 'Oral Traditions' I hope specialOps understand the meaning of 'Oral Tradition' before he shoot his mouth "Show me from the written bible(Torah)". I think he has a big problem with comprehension. Nevertheless I will try my best to enlighten him on the reverent of the 'Oral Tradition' to the written Torah.
Then where in the bible do you find this "special Jewish hell" ?
Its not true that only Jews can have the spiritual understanding of the gospel.
I'm not against the Jews, but its just incorrect to say only Jews can understand the Scripture, because the bible NEVER said that, and it has never been so throughout history.
Jude wrote in the NT. "But Micheal the archangel disputed with the devil(Satan) and argured about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgement, but said 'The LORD rebuke you'" Jude 1:9 NASB
Let us also examine the scriptures about the death and burial of Moses.
"So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. And He buried him in the valley in the land of Moab, opposite Beth-peor; but no man knows his burial place to this day." Deuteronomy 34:5-6 NASB
How did Jude know that Satan disputed with archangel Micheal over the body of Moses? The bible only say the 'He buried Moses'. There is such a thingy called 'Oral Tradition'; Stories handed down from the generations. These traditions are reflected in the customs and culture of the Jewish people.
Let us also consider these scriptures regarding the death of Aaron and Moses.
"Take Aaron and hs son Eleazer and bring them up mount Hor.........So Aaron will be gathered to his people, and he will die there........When all the congregation saw that Aaron had died, all the house of Isreal wept for Aaron thirty days." Number 20:25-29 NASB
"So the sons of Isreal wept for Moses in the plain of Moab thirty days; then the days of weeping and mourning for Moses came to an end." Deuteronomy 34:8 NASB
The children of Isreal mourn for both Moses and Aaron 30 days. Why 30 days? Why not 40 or 60 days? Let us look at the Jewish Tradition on mourning the dead, we may know our answer.
In Jewish tradition the dead are mourned in 3 stages.
Stage 1. Shiva. The first 7 days.
Stage 2. Shloshim. The first 30 days. After the completion of Shloshim, offical mourning ends for mourners who are mourning anyone except their parent.
Stage 3. 1 year period. For those mourning their parent.
From the 'Oral Traditions', we understand that the children of Isreal observed 'Shloshim' after the death of Aaron and Moses. This Jewish customs explained the 30 days mourning period after the death of Moses and Aaron.
So, if we want to discuss the Jewish concept of 'Hell' and afterlife, it must be discussed in the context of the 'Oral Traditions' or 'Oral Torah'.
Shalom -
wah leow eh .. the example given by Creation1656 (to support the Oral Tradition) so foreign .. even I not heard before.
I mean I've heard better ones. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
We try our best to be original. This is what Torah study is about. Everybody contribute weird ideas, then we learn.
wah leow eh .. the example given by Creation1656 (to support the Oral Tradition) so foreign .. even I not heard before.
I mean I've heard better ones. -
Torah study is also about using appropriate examples for the level of the student .. like giving easier examples for beginners.Originally posted by Creation1656:We try our best to be original. This is what Torah study is about. Everybody contribute weird ideas, then we learn.
Moreover the audience you have now is not keen on learning. So how? This is not a yeshiva where students are keen on learning.
When students are not keen on learning, how should you motivate them and pique their interest? -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
You are correct. But I need arty support from you leh.
Torah study is also about using appropriate examples for the level of the student .. like giving easier examples for beginners.
Moreover the audience you have now is not keen on learning. So how? This is not a yeshiva where students are keen on learning.
When students are not keen on learning, how should you motivate them and pique their interest? 155mm support even better. -
hope you don't get killed by ......................... friendly fire.Originally posted by Creation1656:You are correct. But I need arty support from you leh. -
This Icemoon has a history of killing allies with friendly fire.
I have killed Catholics, Protestants and Jewish-Christians supporters alike. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
Don't worry, I will try to take cover. Also worse come there is no 'Hell'.
hope you don't get killed by ......................... friendly fire. Don't worry, there is no 24/7 BBQ. -
I hope you have taken your cover .. 'cos HERE I COME.Originally posted by Creation1656:Don't worry, I will try to take cover. Also worse come there is no 'Hell'. Don't worry, there is no 24/7 BBQ.
*switches to nuke all allies mode*
I think you are a bit qiang1 ci1 duo2 li3. 'cos you have not provided argument that there is no 24/7 BBQ .. and you are asking the audience not to worry?
Edit: I mean to say it is better to leave out statements that will attract enemy fire. Be safe. Take proper cover. Use leap and bound to the objective. Don't charge at the MG nest. -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
Hope that you nuke "made in North Korea".
I hope you have taken your cover .. 'cos HERE I COME.
*switches to nuke all allies mode*
I think you are a bit qiang1 ci1 duo2 li3. 'cos you have not provided argument that there is no 24/7 BBQ .. and you are asking the audience not to worry? Then really don't have to worry too much. -
Originally posted by Creation1656:
yah lor .. you don't have to worry 'cos it is no use worrying.
Hope that you nuke "made in North Korea". Then really don't have to worry too much. [/b]
you are finished! -
ok .. coast is clear.
specialOps never ka jiao liao.
But I like discussions related to Judaism leh.