Too Many Teachings On Love
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No, it's oni you la. Got teach God's wrath wad....... but emphasis is greater on His love lor because it's wad all of us lack ma!
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Mr Pope, I summarise the two positions for you.
Catholic
faith + works == justification
Protestant
justification == faith + works. -
the sequence is wrong.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Both positions are very similiar...its the chicken adn the egg fallacy.
Prot: Works are merely the products of Faith
CC: Works justify Faith.
Similiarities: NO work = no faith = no salvation.
Correct me if I am wrong.
As a result, the Lutherans and the Catholics have resolved thier differences over the Doctrine of Justification.
JOINT DECLARATION
ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION
by the Lutheran World Federation
and the Catholic Church
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_31101999_cath-luth-joint-declaration_en.html
Not too sure whether this has been affirmed by the Magisteruim or accepted by Protestants.
No faith = No Grace = No acceptable works
Justification by Faith. Faith produce Works and Works is the display of the Faith(not justify faith).
Here is the common agreement :
Justification is by Faith alone, and the assurance that a believer have that he/she have this faith that brought about justification is by the fruit that this faith produce (good works).
example: a prince. is he a prince because of the clothes he wears or how he behave? or by birth (being son of a king)? although what he wears or how he behave shows that he is a prince, these does not determine who he really is.
similarily, Justification is by Faith, but what kind of faith you have is shown is what kind of fruits you bear.
cheers
** OT a bit, good good,
Nick, I can see you are moving off from just quoting others' teachings to starting to puting in more of your own opinion... well done, keep it up...
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As I said, this issue has already been resolved by many learned minds.Originally posted by Icemoon:There is no chicken or egg in classical Protestant theology.
The Ordo Salutis is very clear which one comes first.
CC:
It would be possible to construct a Catholic understanding of the Ordo Salutis...the core elements of one might look like this:God's initiative of grace enabling an individual to respond to his call.
Step4 and 5 include things like falling from grace and being restored to it. They also include growth in justification, and purification in purgatory for some but not necessarily all people. The Catholic Theology is actually far more complex with elements such as losing grace etc which are not dealt in Calvinism.
Conversion (faith and repentance)
Baptism
Regeneration/Justification/Sanctification
Glorification in heaven.
Naturally the best Ordo Salutis will be according to Scripture, that is
Repent, believe, and be baptized. If you fall into mortal sin then repent, believe, and go to confession -
What do you think of the Joint Declaration?
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you wrong lahOriginally posted by Icemoon:Mr Pope, I summarise the two positions for you.
Catholic
faith + works == justification
Protestant
justification == faith + works.
Catholic
faith and works produce justification
Protestant
faith produce justification and works -
you mean this?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:What do you think of the Joint Declaration?
15.In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works37.We confess together that good works - a Christian life lived in faith, hope and love - follow justification and are its fruits. When the justified live in Christ and act in the grace they receive, they bring forth, in biblical terms, good fruit. Since Christians struggle against sin their entire lives, this consequence of justification is also for them an obligation they must fulfill. Thus both Jesus and the apostolic Scriptures admonish Christians to bring forth the works of love.
In short
Justification by Faith in Christ through grace alone and not because of any merit on our part.
When a believer live in faith, he live in Christ and acting in grace receive the ability to bring forth good works. -
And dont forget-Originally posted by vince69:you wrong lah
Catholic
faith and works produce justification
Protestant
faith produce justification and works
CC : ongoing justification
Prot: one time justification. -
wrong :Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:And dont forget-
CC : ongoing justification
Prot: one time justification.
CC : ongoing justification
Prot (non-OSAS) : ongoing justification
Prot (OSAS): one time justification
haha
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38.According to Catholic understanding, good works, made possible by grace and the working of the Holy Spirit, contribute to growth in grace, so that the righteousness that comes from God is preserved and communion with Christ is deepened. When Catholics affirm the "meritorious" character of good works, they wish to say that, according to the biblical witness, a reward in heaven is promised to these works. Their intention is to emphasize the responsibility of persons for their actions, not to contest the character of those works as gifts, or far less to deny that justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace.
Examine the meaning behind it with Trent Docs.
The Catholic teaching still stands.
Canon 32 of Trent:
"If anyone shall say that the good works of the man justified are in such a way the gifts of God that they are not also the good merits of him who is justified, or that the one justified by the good works, which are done by him through the grace of God and the merit of Jesus Christ (whose living member he is), does not truly merit increase of grace, eternal life, and the attainment of that eternal life (if he should die in grace), and also increase of glory: let him be anathema."
Conservative Lutherans rejects this declaration. Most of the Lutheran synods are liberal and pro-ecunemism hence this led to the signing haha. POlitics not theology prevailed. -
Still at Faith and Works debate arh.
OT liao leh. -
Ok ... Pope, think MC just pointed out, both of us OOT liao ...Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:The Catholic teaching still stands.
Conservative Lutherans rejects this declaration. Most of the Lutheran synods are liberal and pro-ecunemism hence this led to the signing haha. POlitics not theology prevailed.
just ponder over this.... (over the 2 quotes you put here)
If Justification remains an unmerited gift of grace, why is merit required to upkeep and maintain it?
in other words, why is merit required to maintain an unmerited gift?
cheers ... -
my apologies. I got the protestant part mixed up.Originally posted by vince69:you wrong lah
Catholic
faith and works produce justification
Protestant
faith produce justification and works
Mr Pope say chicken and egg until I really put them like chicken and egg. -
Hmm .. step 1 .. I smell the debatable doctrine of prevenient grace.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:God's initiative of grace enabling an individual to respond to his call.
Conversion (faith and repentance)
Baptism
Regeneration/Justification/Sanctification
Glorification in heaven.
Step4 and 5 include things like falling from grace and being restored to it. They also include growth in justification, and purification in purgatory for some but not necessarily all people. The Catholic Theology is actually far more complex with elements such as losing grace etc which are not dealt in Calvinism.
Har .. just because you have elements like losing grace so you say it is more complex?
Then what? Mormons have their own bible so they champion liao? -
Just thought of this, since we are on the topic about love.
a father's love...
(in singlish mode)
A father happy happy buy a toy for his young son (say 5years old lah). (assuming under normal relationship situation, don't think those exception crazy cases lah)
1) Do you think the boy will ask,
(a)why this old man want to give me a toy hah? what he want from me hah?
OR
(b)He will just take and go enjoy it?
2) Do you think the father bother if the boy got say thank you or not?
3) which do you think the father will be pleased more or give him more pleasure;
(a)the boy take the toy and enjoy playing with it?
OR
(b)the boy just stare at it, don't dare to touch it or even scare of it cause he think the father will take it away anytime?
cheers