Catholic have more than 1 Bible ?
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Macross is here, got question to askOriginally posted by SingaporeMacross:God has not forgotten about the Jews. At the end of time He will have a way to deal with that. But we do not know.
can a Catholic study the Bible on his/her own? is this encouraged or forbidden?
no other intention one, just want to verify if what I know is correct or wrong.
Thanks -
hmm .. even protestants don't study bible on their own. You read study bible, you go for bible study classes, you discuss bible in Eternal Hope ..
how can studying take place in a vacuum? -
I also have a question for Catholics.
Is there a Catholic study bible that references biblical verse with the CCC or the authoritative interpretation for that verse? -
heng ah... i was about to lock the thread... talk about "new" and "old" covenant until page six then come back to subject.
there's already a thread on "new" and "old" covenant... http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=235720
so discuss there ok? -
Nope.Originally posted by Icemoon:I also have a question for Catholics.
Is there a Catholic study bible that references biblical verse with the CCC or the authoritative interpretation for that verse?
Just the doctrines are authoritative.
Hmm but it will be cool to have a Catechism of Scripture....every verse with a paragraph long explanation HAHA -
The CCC itself has references to Scripture and documents of the Church Fathers.Originally posted by Icemoon:I also have a question for Catholics.
Is there a Catholic study bible that references biblical verse with the CCC or the authoritative interpretation for that verse? -
It is not at all forbidden. Still, all Catholics are encouraged to study the bible in the light of the Church's guidance.Originally posted by vince69:Macross is here, got question to ask
can a Catholic study the Bible on his/her own? is this encouraged or forbidden?
no other intention one, just want to verify if what I know is correct or wrong.
Thanks
Assuming we make a distinction between studying and interpreting, it should be all right. -
This quote is pretty hilarious.
'When anyone asks one of these heretics who presents arguments: Where are the proofs of your teaching that I should leave behind the world-wide and ancient faith of the Catholic Church? He will jump in before you have finished with the question: "It is written" He follows up immediately with thousands of texts and examples...' Vincent of Lerins, Commonitory for the Antiquity and Universality of the Catholic Faith 1,26 (A.D. 434).
I tihnk most catholics ahve experienced it haha....traditions of heretics perhaps haha -
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
hey.. even though there are verses quoting the saints praying, and tt christians should intercede for 1 another, but nowhere did it state tt we can pray to the saints to intercede for us.. moreover, as i mentioned, if the prayers of those in heaven are tt powerful and we're supposed to ask them to intercede for us, the apostles themselves should have been asking moses and elijah to intercede for them.
To show that we are called to intercede for one another
Brothers, pray for us (too). 1 Thess 5:25
1 Thess. 5:17 - Paul says "pray constantly." If Jesus' role as mediator does not apply subordinately to us, why pray at all?
as you help us with prayer, so that thanks may be given by many on our behalf for the gift granted us through the [b]prayers of many. - 2Cor 1;11
Ohh and didnt Elijah and Moses appear in the Transfiguration. If they are unable to help us, why did they appear to Jesus?[/b]
icemoon mentioned tt the apostles can't speak hebrew well, but neither can they speak english rite? so when the catholics pray to the apostles, they're not supposed to pray in english? language is definitely not a barrier here.. -
only God has the ability to hear any languages.
Apostles or saints are still human .. not like they go up liao gain some super powers right? -
Jesus taught them to pray to the Father directly.Originally posted by VivId CrItiQuE:moreover, as i mentioned, if the prayers of those in heaven are tt powerful and we're supposed to ask them to intercede for us, the apostles themselves should have been asking moses and elijah to intercede for them. -
Icey ... for you ..Originally posted by Icemoon:Jesus taught them to pray to the Father directly.
1 Timothy 2:1-7 (NRSV)
1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, so that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all ?this was attested at the right time. 7 For this I was appointed a herald and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth. -
So tell me, why are the Saints praying in heaven?
- They cant be praying for themselves as they are already glorified.
So they must be praying for someone, you concede that they are not superhumans, hence
- its impossible for them to be praying for us without us telling them exactly what intercession we want as they cant read minds
- I am hence left to posit that we MUST TELL them what we want so that they can pray for us.
- Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
-If u disagree, explain to me what the Saints are doing exactly in rev 5.
Secondly, why must Christians pray for another if they can easily intercede to the Father?
- You have conceded that it is a must for Christian to intercede for another by quoting the Scripture,1 Timothy 2:1-7 (NRSV)
- Isnt the act of interceding running counter to your argument of one intercessor and that is Christ. So hence, the principle behind the Catholic position is sound.
1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, so that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all ?this was attested at the right time. 7 For this I was appointed a herald and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
- Therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).
- Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians (and the Saints who are glorified Christians) on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on ChristÂ’s role as mediator.
The next argument you brought out was the fact that there is a distinction beween Saints and Christians.
- Clearly the Saints are Christians and are part of the Catholic Church through the Communion of the Saints. They are Christians and are part of the Holy Apostolic Church. Have u not recited the Apostles Creed which clearly states it. The Saints are Christians and since Christians according to Scripture should be praying for another, there is nothing wrong with intercession to the Saints.
Fourthly, you claim the Apostles never interceded to the Saints and why shoudl we.
- Why would they need to ask glorified christians for intercession when they are walking with God.
- Do we not see in Scripture that the Apostles ask for intercession by their fellow Christians. Doesnt this destroy your heresy?
Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly?
- If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.
- Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do
- The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesees and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion.
- Aren't the prayers of the rightoues poweerful? Those Christians in heaven are more righteous, (since they have been made perfect to stand in GodÂ’s presence) than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.
Lastly, have the Church Fathers been living a lie?
"Thus might you console us; but what of the flock? Would you first promise the oversight and leadership of yourself, a man under whose wings we all would gladly repose, and for whose words we thirst more eagerly than men suffering from thirst for the purest fountain? Secondly, persuade us that the good shepherd who laid down his life for the sheep has not even now left us; but is present, and tends and guides, and knows his own, and is known of his own, and, though bodily invisible, is spiritually recognized, and defends his flock against the wolves, and allows no one to climb over into the fold as a robber and traitor; to pervert and steal away, by the voice of strangers, souls under the fair guidance of the truth. Aye, I am well assured that his intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay which obscured it, and holds intercourse naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest Mind; being promoted, if it be not rash to say so, to the rank and confidence of an angel." John Chrysostom, On the Death of his Father, Oration 18:4 (A.D. 374).
"Furthermore, as to mentioning the names of the dead, how is there anything very useful in that? What is more timely or more excellent than that those who are still here should believe that the departed do live, and that they have not retreated into nothingness, but that they exist and are alive with the Master...Useful too is the prayer fashioned on their behalf...For we make commemoration of the just and of sinners: of sinners, begging God's mercy for them; of the just and the Fathers and Patriarchs and Prophets and Apostles and Evangelists and martyrs and confessors, and of bishops and solitaries, and of the whole list of them..." Epiphanius, Panarion, 75:8 (A.D. 377).
Catholic vs. the Protestant approach to relationship with Jesus
Scenario 1: If someone falls in love and they say:
I love you so much. I love you so much that I want to spend all my time with you. I never want to talk to your mother. I never want to see your family or friends. I want you to banish them when they come around, I just want to spend my whole life with you and love you.
That's how I understand the Protestant take on a relationship to Jesus.
Scenario 2: On the other hand he could say:
I love you so much. I love you so much that I want to spend my time with you. Your mom is welcome to visit our home. Your family is my family, your friends are my friends. The people you love, I will love. We are one flesh and I welcome everyone you welcome.
I think the second one sounds like a more authentic love. I think this is the Catholic approach to a relationship with Jesus. -
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
So tell me, why are the Saints praying in heaven?
- They cant be praying for themselves as they are already glorified.
So they must be praying for someone, you concede that they are not superhumans, hence
- its impossible for them to be praying for us without us telling them exactly what intercession we want as they cant read minds
- I am hence left to posit that we MUST TELL them what we want so that they can pray for us.
- Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.
-If u disagree, explain to me what the Saints are doing exactly in rev 5.
Lets see, Rev 5 verse 8,
Rev 5:8 (NRSV)
8 When he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell before the Lamb, each holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Its not the saints that is offering the prayers, its the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders, eventhough its called prayers of the saints. And its not a mental thingy, unless you are saying they cannot talk one, but hoh, one of them talk to John in the same chapter leh.
and also, I put to you that these saints we are speaking of here are not refering to cannonised saints, but believers as a whole, believers that are justified and made righteous by the blood of the Lamb.
(oh... do Catholics also practice the sainthood of the believers or only just those cannonised?).. -
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
Secondly, why must Christians pray for another if they can easily intercede to the Father?
- You have conceded that it is a must for Christian to intercede for another by quoting the Scripture,
- Isnt the act of interceding running counter to your argument of one intercessor and that is Christ. So hence, the principle behind the Catholic position is sound.
- Therefore, although Jesus Christ is the sole mediator between God and man, there are many intercessors (subordinate mediators).
- Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians (and the Saints who are glorified Christians) on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on ChristÂ’s role as mediator.
you quote me here,
1 Timothy 2:1-7 (NRSV)
1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, so that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and dignity. 3 This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, himself human, 6 who gave himself a ransom for all ?this was attested at the right time. 7 For this I was appointed a herald and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
ok,
1) read the verses probably, it says one mediator between God and humankind, Christ Jesus, it did not says one intercessor.
Nic, you are confused with your thoughts, in Protestants practices, there is no dispute about praying for each other, or asking someone else you trust to pray for you.
Here is the differences...
the dispute is, can one who is alive, ask someone who is dead to pray or interceed? to some of us, this is not possible and should not be done.
of course, to a catholic, its ok to pray to the dead saints to pray to Christ to pray to the Father... -
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
both your examples are not appropretiate and to a certain extend biased.
Catholic vs. the Protestant approach to relationship with Jesus
Scenario 1: If someone falls in love and they say:
I love you so much. I love you so much that I want to spend all my time with you. I never want to talk to your mother. I never want to see your family or friends. I want you to banish them when they come around, I just want to spend my whole life with you and love you.
That's how I understand the Protestant take on a relationship to Jesus.
Scenario 2: On the other hand he could say:
I love you so much. I love you so much that I want to spend my time with you. Your mom is welcome to visit our home. Your family is my family, your friends are my friends. The people you love, I will love. We are one flesh and I welcome everyone you welcome.
I think the second one sounds like a more authentic love. I think this is the Catholic approach to a relationship with Jesus.
1) we are talking about prayers, and whether a dead person is to be asked to interceed or not here.
we are not talking about relating or treatment (And nobody talk about banishing anyone here... )
2) My take of a better scenario will be to take... a example someone once put here (with a bit of twist)
You need a favor from the rich Son
a) You can go direct to the Son and ask, believing that He is generous and good, and knowing He and you are in good terms.
b) You can go to His friends or mother to ask them to plead on your behalf because either you scared that you not in good term with Him or you think He is petty and horrible so maybe by going to His mother you can so call twisted His arm a bit.
--- To each his own, which do you think you are, (a) or (b)? you decide. -
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
Since this is 'Lastly'
Lastly, have the Church Fathers been living a lie?
Nope, the early church fathers are not lying, they are simply conveying their ideas, their understanding based on either what was taught to them or what they had choose to believe to be the acceptable norm or logic.
Another thing to note that the church fathers as well as all theologians are human, yes, human. Human being human are subject to the influences from their
1) surroundings
2) experiences
3) brought up
4) their needs and wants
Hence its natural to expect that in their writtings/teachings are subjected to all these influences, people want to convey their ideas, to convince others of what they believe in.
In short, they are biased, biased towards their own leanings, towards what they want others to believe in, towards how they want to influence others to agree with them... This is how communication works ...
And YES, I am biased... -
So the ONE SOLE difference in our position is whether the DEAD SAINTS can intercede for us...
My answer to that is that God is God of the living and hence those who have gained eternal life are far more ALIVE than us.
Objection 1: The Saints are dead and are hence separated from us both physically and spiritually.
Rebuttal: Saints are alive and glorified Christians. They have eternal life and are nearer to God and hence can intercede for us as other Christians on Earth do. Scripture clearly shows that those in heaven who offer to God our prayers arenÂ’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:
. The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth. Saints are hence not separated from the Church but are part of it. And they will continue to help and pray for the Church Militant on Earth. It is most repulsive to say Saints are separated from us when we are ONE in christ.
Clearly Scripture shows that the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.Luke 15:7,10
Objection 2: Its not the saints that is offering the prayers, its the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders, eventhough its called prayers of the saints.
I tell you, in just the same way there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous people who have no need of repentance...In just the same way, I tell you, there will be rejoicing among the angels of God over one sinner who repents."
Rebuttal: On the contrary, Scripture clearly points that is the Saints who offers and give those prayers.Rev 8:3
2 separate verses clearly proves that it is the Saints who are offering and giving up prayers to God. These prayers “rise up” before God and elicit various kinds of earthly activity. God responds to his children’s requests, whether made by his children on earth or in heaven. Logically, there is no denying that it is the Saints who makes the prayers.
Another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a gold censer. He was given a great quantity of incense to offer, along with the prayers of all the saints, on the gold altar that was before the throne. The smoke of the incense along with the prayers of the saints went up before God from the hand of the angel.
Rev 5:8
When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the saints.
Objection 3: The Saints are merely praying for themselves.
Rebuttal: The Saints will not be praying for themselves or any heavenly being as they are already glorified. There is no need to pray for any other glorifed christian. Hence they must be praying for someone. There is only 2 possible areas to pray for:
The Damned - But the damned are already punished and its impossible to save them
The Church Militant - Possible to pray for them as they are fighting of Satan and are in need of heaven's help
It is hence clear that they must be praying for us, the Chuch Militant. Their prayers and intercession can benefit the Church Militant by helping us grow stronger in faith. It is hence impossible for them to pray for either the damned or those in heaven.
Objection 4: We can go to Jesus directly and still obtain it.
Rebuttal: Of course one should pray directly to Jesus! But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, the "go-directly-to-Jesus" objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us. Do you see the ironies of your position...the contradictory nature of your stance.
If your position is true, there will be no need to ask others to pray for you hence making St Paul's continous asking for prayer merely superficious. Instead we are told by James that prayers of the righteous are powerful. Why would he say that is the 'go directly to Jesus' school of thought is true? So how much more powerful is the prayer of one who is already Glorified in heaven and closer to God.
Objection 5: It is possible for the Church Fathers to err.
I totally agree with this. The Church Fathers are not infallible. However, what i seek to prove is to show that the Church has held such a position and taught it since the first few centuriess. Christ has promised to be with his Church and not leave us orphan nor let the gates of hell prevail against it. Surely if the doctrine is false, then every Christian was being taught a lie and are material heretics. Such a stance is accusing the Apostle Paul of being a liar when he called the Church the pinnacle of Truth. Ultimately, are u accusing the One and Only Church at that time to be teaching heresy?
In conclusion, our key difference is that the Catholic beleive in the communion of the saints and those on Earth wheras the Protestant condemns them as dead and death and naturally, mute. -
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
Luke 15:7,10
Objection 1: The Saints are dead and are hence separated from us both physically and spiritually.
Who are doing the rejoicing, the saints or the angels of God (read your own quotes)
Rev 8:3
Who is the one doing the offering? the Angel or the Saints (read your own quotes)
Rev 5:3
Who is the one doing the offering? the Elders or the Saints (read your own quotes)
Objection 2,3 : The Saints here refering to those that are dead or those that were made while they are still alive?
(this is the distinction between us)
Like you said, the key different is whether the one we talk to are alive with us, or dead (or as paul said, asleep), and no, we don't condemn them, just stating the fact about their physical 'situation'.
Objection 4: We can go to Jesus directly and still obtain it.
Rebuttal: Of course one should pray directly to Jesus! But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, the "go-directly-to-Jesus" objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us. Do you see the ironies of your position...the contradictory nature of your stance.
If your position is true, there will be no need to ask others to pray for you hence making St Paul's continous asking for prayer merely superficious. Instead we are told by James that prayers of the righteous are powerful. Why would he say that is the 'go directly to Jesus' school of thought is true? So how much more powerful is the prayer of one who is already Glorified in heaven and closer to God.
[quote]
Objection 5: It is possible for the Church Fathers to err.
I totally agree with this. The Church Fathers are not infallible. However, what i seek to prove is to show that the Church has held such a position and taught it since the first few centuriess. Christ has promised to be with his Church and not leave us orphan nor let the gates of hell prevail against it. Surely if the doctrine is false, then every Christian was being taught a lie and are material heretics. Such a stance is accusing the Apostle Paul of being a liar when he called the Church the pinnacle of Truth. Ultimately, are u accusing the One and Only Church at that time to be teaching heresy?
[quote]
hm... you like to be confrontational, ok allow me to point this out to you straight, you cannot say if the church teaches this, then it cannot be wrong, no even the Apostle Paul encourage others to question his own teachings and he even commended them for doing so.... make it this way, questioning the teachings of church fathers is not about accusation?
And the Catholic Church that you know about today is not the ONE AND ONLY Church.... face it. -
Luke 15:7,10
Rebuttal: Firsty, your position contradicts ur stance as if what u say is true, then the Go Directly to Jesus school of thought is false and u ahve conceded that it is the Angels and the Elders who offer up prayers. Secondly, the question is not who is bringing the prayers to God but rather is the prayer of the Saints in heave efficacious. Clearly even you must aknowledge it is the Saints who does the praying and hence the intercessing.
Who are doing the rejoicing, the saints or the angels of God (read your own quotes)
Rev 8:3
Who is the one doing the offering? the Angel or the Saints (read your own quotes)
Rev 5:3
Who is the one doing the offering? the Elders or the Saints (read your own quotes)Like you said, the key different is whether the one we talk to are alive with us, or dead (or as paul said, asleep), and no, we don't condemn them, just stating the fact about their physical 'situation'
So we clearly see a shift in your position. That is from 'going directly to jesus as he is sufficient' to 'its good to have other mediators on earth'.
Show me where in Scripture does it say the glorified Christians are separated from us. I have shown u that they are alive in Christ. Furthermore Angelic heavenly beings rejoice in hearing the salvation of souls. This destroy your position that those in heaven are separated from us. For if those in heaven are separated then the Angels (and hence the Saints) will not be able to rejoioce (nor to intercede for us).hm... you like to be confrontational, ok allow me to point this out to you straight, you cannot say if the church teaches this, then it cannot be wrong, no even the Apostle Paul encourage others to question his own teachings and he even commended them for doing so.... make it this way, questioning the teachings of church fathers is not about accusation?
1) So are u saying that Scripture is open to questioning as they might contain lies?
And the Catholic Church that you know about today is not the ONE AND ONLY Church.... face it.
2) Can you please name me which Church existed in 300AD?
3) Did Christ desert Christians from 90AD - Reformation? -
2. Church of Jesus Christ - existed since the Pentecost.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:2) Can you please name me which Church existed in 300AD?
3) Did Christ desert Christians from 90AD - Reformation?
3. He did not. But He also said there would be wheat and chaff, so I suggest don't bother looking for the one and only church or the true church. -
and I say to you... the prayers of the saints mentioned are those that are made when they are alive and the saints mentioned here are all believers and not just those cannonised saints.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:1) So are u saying that Scripture is open to questioning as they might contain lies?
2) Can you please name me which Church existed in 300AD?
3) Did Christ desert Christians from 90AD - Reformation?
and face it, the Catholic church today is not the same as the church that exist before 90AD, and may not even be the same as the church during the first 3 centuries.
and I am saying, church doctrines are open to questioning, and church doctrine not equal to Scriptures, questioning church doctrines and church fathers teachings are not questioning the Scriptures, question also need to have some basis, don't anyhow lump them together.
church doctrines to me are just understandings of man regarding Scritpural teachings.
Did Christ desert Christians from 90AD? nope, but many times, Christians have deserted Christ, or should I say, 'Christians' instead, even in the early church, during the times of the Apostles, false doctrines had began to slip into the church and many had been led astray away from Christ.
I shall end my discussion with you here, reason being there is nothing to discuss with you, as I do not like unnessary confrontation, least I say things I do not like to say. And as it is, you had your mind made up that there is nothing to discuss about in matters regarding to doctrines and theology and no questionings in allow. -
2. Well strangely i believe that is the Catholic Church. Even Orthodox brethen acknowledge that and the Reformers too.Originally posted by Icemoon:2. Church of Jesus Christ - existed since the Pentecost.
3. He did not. But He also said there would be wheat and chaff, so I suggest don't bother looking for the one and only church or the true church.
3. If he had no deserted then why do protestants accuse the Christians of the first few centuries of heresy? -
Icey,Originally posted by Icemoon:2. Church of Jesus Christ - existed since the Pentecost.
3. He did not. But He also said there would be wheat and chaff, so I suggest don't bother looking for the one and only church or the true church.
he is all yours, don't think he insterested in discussing doctrine or theology.
Oh, if you or anyone found the one perfect church, do let me know, so I will avoid it at all cost (if not, I go join it and make it imperfect
) -
Actually from what I read, the early "Church" was quite disunited. Rome was just one of the many patriarchy that claim apostolic succession. The bishop of Rome was respected, but it did not have primacy over other patriarchs. I respect you doesn't mean you can lord over my head.
As a bishop of Rome, you would naturally use Scripture to claim primacy over other patriarchs. Why not? You think all the patriarchs buddy buddy with each other?
Ok .. let's not go into another debate on this. Just want to point out to Mr Pope .. read history with an objective eye.