Catholic have more than 1 Bible ?
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and in the same chapter, Paul also said that God could have easily graft them back, and also that Israel will be saved.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Yup...the New Convenant wont be like the Old Convenant. Very true.
Jesus is the Deliverer who comes from Zion to establish the New Covenant with His Incarnation. Just as Isaiah said that the Deliverer will “banish ungodliness from Jacob,” so Gabriel tells Mary at the Annunnciation that Christ would “reign over the house of Jacob” (Luke 1:33). Just as Isaiah said the Deliverer will “take away sins,” so Zecharaih says that Jesus would grant “the forgiveness of sins” (Luke 1:77). Just as Jeremiah (who Paul quotes in Romans 11:27) said that God will establish his “covenant” with the Jews, Zechariah says that God has remembered “his holy covenant” in Christ (Luke 1:72). All these parallels, and many more, proves Christ is the Messiah and the establishment of the New Convenant.
Paul warned the Jews that they were cut off the vine because of thier UNBELIEF.... -
how will they be saved?Originally posted by vince69:and in the same chapter, Paul also said that God could have easily graft them back, and also that Israel will be saved. -
Christian not same as Messianic Jew, the latter are Jews who embrace Yeshua as messiah, the former are more like adopted children.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:A christian is something like a messianic jew. He doesnt have to follow the Laws as it is voided but instead follow the Laws of Christ which is in accordance with the principle of the OT LAws....
As far as the Jews are concerned, the Laws was never abolished and can never be voided.
by the way, please make up you mind, how can you say the laws are voided and yet still follow its principles?
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He is confused because he assumed the laws were meant for gentiles also.Originally posted by vince69:by the way, please make up you mind, how can you say the laws are voided and yet still follow its principles?
So Jews have 613 commandments. He thought if there is no Jesus Christ, gentiles also must follow the 613. -
Different people have different idea and theory, I must confess, I also have not fully understand this part yet, even though I am also very interested to know.Originally posted by Icemoon:how will they be saved?
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No way to reconcile the "if you don't believe in Christ you are doomed" slogan.Originally posted by vince69:Different people have different idea and theory, I must confess, I also have not fully understand this part yet, even though I am also very interested to know.
Also Jews are also subjected to the same judgement as us. They also do not have enough righteousness to stand before God.
To say they can be saved by some other mysterious means (and which is not available to us) is just apologetic. -
confusing hur?Originally posted by Icemoon:He is confused because he assumed the laws were meant for gentiles also.
So Jews have 613 commandments. He thought if there is no Jesus Christ, gentiles also must follow the 613.
not under law but must follow its principles
save by grace of God through faith in Jesus Christ, but also must add in works, as if God's grace not enough so must add in man's work.
God's covenant can anyhow void like God keep changing His mind.
funny siah ...
no actually not funny, if its funny, I can stop here, but its quite insulting to God to say He not good enough and also to say He cannot make up His mind. -
There is a school of thought that this 'Israel' refers to the 'remenant' that will in the last days embrace Yeshua and be saved (Messanic Jews) ... etcOriginally posted by Icemoon:No way to reconcile the "if you don't believe in Christ you are doomed" slogan.
Also Jews are also subjected to the same judgement as us. They also do not have enough righteousness to stand before God.
To say they can be saved by some other mysterious means (and which is not available to us) is just apologetic.
Like you said, these are just apologetic at best, hence I also cannot really can tell. maybe I have to dig deeper. -
Actually he is making God the biggest failure. God's experiment to cultivate righteous human through the Laws have failed!Originally posted by vince69:no actually not funny, if its funny, I can stop here, but its quite insulting to God to say He not good enough and also to say He cannot make up His mind.
Amazingly .. God's recurring failure through the generations, from Adam to Moses to the Prophets, suddenly became a resounding success with the birth of the Church!
Like I've said - he believes in a treacherous God. A God that demands 100% perfect compliance of the Laws. Oh, you mean God didn't know human beings were depraved at Sinai? And yet He continued to give the stone tablets!
Christians only see Jesus Christ. They are *blind* to the treacherous God orchestrating the whole affair from behind the curtain. -
then you have to find a strong proof from the Jewish Scripture.Originally posted by vince69:There is a school of thought that this 'Israel' refers to the 'remenant' that will in the last days embrace Yeshua and be saved (Messanic Jews) ... etc
If it is so important, God MUST have put it in the Jewish Scripture .. right or not?
How can God speak [almost like a nagging woman] about the laws and then is silent about Yeshua? -
and I agree with you, remember I started off saying I am not really sure and ended with the need to dig deeper?Originally posted by Icemoon:then you have to find a strong proof from the Jewish Scripture.
If it is so important, God MUST have put it in the Jewish Scripture .. right or not?
How can God speak [almost like a nagging woman] about the laws and then is silent about Yeshua? -
vince .. that theory is making the treacherous god even more treacherous!
to expect the Jews to find something 'hidden' in Scripture, which no sages or scholars have been able to decipher through the ages! -
hmmmm,,, why did God give the Ten commandments?Originally posted by Icemoon:Actually he is making God the biggest failure. God's experiment to cultivate righteous human through the Laws have failed!
Amazingly .. God's recurring failure through the generations, from Adam to Moses to the Prophets, suddenly became a resounding success with the birth of the Church!
Like I've said - he believes in a treacherous God. A God that demands 100% perfect compliance of the Laws. Oh, you mean God didn't know human beings were depraved at Sinai? And yet He continued to give the stone tablets!
Christians only see Jesus Christ. They are *blind* to the treacherous God orchestrating the whole affair from behind the curtain.
the only clue I have had so far is this ... The children of Israel says this (just before the ten commandments was given)
Like this question is like what you had said earlier, man struggle with sin from day 1 since the day of Adam. but without the Laws, how will these be brought out into the open? and If we did not know about these, how will we be driven to acknowledge in regards to sin in us?
Its like, the laws show the depravity of man.
*********just my personal opinion. -
treacherous or not, you opinion is as good as mindOriginally posted by Icemoon:vince .. that theory is making the treacherous god even more treacherous!
to expect the Jews to find something 'hidden' in Scripture, which no sages or scholars have been able to decipher through the ages!
but to says something is hidden may also not be true, sometime, things can be just too plain and simple that the 'wise' discard it as not important, or simply put, they may have been looking for the wrong thing cause this is could be just too obvious to be true.
* its just human nature. -
Like I said before also .. there is no such thing as the 10 commandments!Originally posted by vince69:hmmmm,,, why did God give the Ten commandments?
the only clue I have had so far is this ... The children of Israel says this (just before the ten commandments was given)
Like this question is like what you had said earlier, man struggle with sin from day 1 since the day of Adam. but without the Laws, how will these be brought out into the open? and If we did not know about these, how will we be driven to acknowledge in regards to sin in us?
Its like, the laws show the depravity of man.
*********just my personal opinion.
Furthermore the sins to do with transgressions of the laws are only specific to the laws, as in there is no place for them outside the law.
Hmm .. how to explain? It is like kosher laws, failure to observe Sabbath, all the 'Jewish' stuff .. they have no meaning outside the Torah. Tell a chinese it is a sin to eat ba kwa and kway chup .. he answer you siao!
To answer the reason for giving the "10 commandments", we have to examine the relationship between them and the Torah.
Hint: How did Rabbi Hillel summarize the Torah? How do Jews view the "10 commandments"? -
From another perspective, sometimes things are so plain and simple but Christians just want to twist and turn to fit their pre-conceived theology.Originally posted by vince69:but to says something is hidden may also not be true, sometime, things can be just too plain and simple that the 'wise' discard it as not important, or simply put, they may have been looking for the wrong thing cause this is could be just too obvious to be true.
* its just human nature.
One example (Mr Pope's favourite example in fact) is Peter declared as the rock and given the keys and told to feed the sheeps. Look how Protestants try to "twist" the plain and simple words in red to deny papal authority and apostolic succession.
Yeah .. Mr Pope is certainly wise. Somewhere in the Torah it is mentioned the laws/covenant will be eternal. I think there are many places in the OT that say the torah/laws/covenants will be eternal. Wonder why Mr Pope, the 'wise', choose to discard them? -
I have no idea who is Rabbi Hillel nor do I really know the Torah.Originally posted by Icemoon:Like I said before also .. there is no such thing as the 10 commandments!
Furthermore the sins to do with transgressions of the laws are only specific to the laws, as in there is no place for them outside the law.
Hmm .. how to explain? It is like kosher laws, failure to observe Sabbath, all the 'Jewish' stuff .. they have no meaning outside the Torah. Tell a chinese it is a sin to eat ba kwa and kway chup .. he answer you siao!
To answer the reason for giving the "10 commandments", we have to examine the relationship between them and the Torah.
Hint: How did Rabbi Hillel summarize the Torah?
I only know the OT and my knowledge regarding this had been very limited (self confession). -
I apologize. What Rabbi Hillel said is quite indirect. It is not a hint actually.Originally posted by vince69:I have no idea who is Rabbi Hillel nor do I really know the Torah.
IMHO, we can find out how Jews view the "10 commandments" and try to do some sythesis from there.
Actually how Jews view them is uncanny similar to how Jesus view the laws of the prophets.
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on the laws/covenant, you can find this mentioned in the NT even.Originally posted by Icemoon:From another perspective, sometimes things are so plain and simple but Christians just want to twist and turn to fit their pre-conceived theology.
One example (Mr Pope's favourite example in fact) is Peter declared as the rock and given the keys and told to feed the sheeps. Look how Protestants try to "twist" the plain and simple words in red to deny papal authority and apostolic succession.
Yeah .. Mr Pope is certainly wise. Somewhere in the Torah it is mentioned the laws/covenant will be eternal. I think there are many places in the OT that say the torah/laws/covenants will be eternal. Wonder why Mr Pope, the 'wise', choose to discard them?
on the rock and the feed the sheep part, personally feel that both side are simply reading between the lines and twisting the words to suit their own version. -
actually protestants in general don't study patristics. even those who are versed in the protestant greats don't study patristics.Originally posted by vince69:on the rock and the feed the sheep part, personally feel that both side are simply reading between the lines and twisting the words to suit their own version.
do you think Ironside study patristics?
read how the rock and sheep is explained in patristics, and later by the Papal authority. -
God has not forgotten about the Jews. At the end of time He will have a way to deal with that. But we do not know.Originally posted by Icemoon:No way to reconcile the "if you don't believe in Christ you are doomed" slogan.
Also Jews are also subjected to the same judgement as us. They also do not have enough righteousness to stand before God.
To say they can be saved by some other mysterious means (and which is not available to us) is just apologetic. -
It is better that the gospel is not preached.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:God has not forgotten about the Jews. At the end of time He will have a way to deal with that. But we do not know.
Because once you know and you reject, bye bye for you.
Christians are *blind* to the other side of the coin. The gospel is a sure ticket to heaven .. hmm actually not really 'cos Catholics believe you can lose your salvation.
But the gospel is a sure ticket to the burning lake of fire, if you reject.
Proof verse:Mark 16 (NIV)
I dunno what condemn means here, but it is surely not saved.
15He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation. 16Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. -
how about the 'will be saved' part? is this a definite article? or something that says 'may be only?'Originally posted by Icemoon:I dunno what condemn means here, but it is surely not saved.
ok. when He says
'Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved'
He means will be saved? or He means may be saved only? -
hmm .. the english says "will be" .. means WILL BE.Originally posted by vince69:how about the 'will be saved' part? is this a definite article? or something that says 'may be only?'
Oh shucks .. this is affirmation for OSAS theory? -
unless, people says He also can change His mind one loh ... or He not sure what He is talking about?Originally posted by Icemoon:hmm .. the english says "will be" .. means WILL BE.
Oh shucks .. this is affirmation for OSAS theory?