Catholic have more than 1 Bible ?
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you have not mentioned that the Jews inherited the covenant of Abraham through their fathers, Isaac and Jacob.Originally posted by Icemoon:I urge anti-semitic people like Mr Pope to read the messianic prophecies in the Old Testament.
During the last days, the Jews will be the focus, not the Church in Rome.
In fact, when the Temple is rebuilt, sacrifice will resume. The eucharist will be superseded by the original and proper sacrifice.
So tell me, who has the Truth?
Our Messiah Jesus Christ is a Jew.
The First Church were made up of Jews and led by Jews.
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But that convenant is voided. The NT said so clearly. Christians are Jews who obeyed the divine revelations. Furthermore, it is the Antichrist who will build up the Temple. And lastly, the Eucharist is the most perfect form of sacrifice. Can there a sacrifice far greater than the body and blood of Christ?Originally posted by vince69:you have not mentioned that the Jews inherited the covenant of Abraham through their fathers, Isaac and Jacob.
Our Messiah Jesus Christ is a Jew.
The First Church were made up of Jews and led by Jews.
And the Church was made of pagan as well like Paul etc. Was the NT written in Hebrew or Greek? A
After 33AD, there is no jews or pagan instead just the condemned and children of God. -
God will void His covenant? Why are you worshipping a God like that?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:But that convenant is voided. The NT said so clearly. Christians are Jews who obeyed the divine revelations. Furthermore, it is the Antichrist who will build up the Temple. And lastly, the Eucharist is the most perfect form of sacrifice. Can there a sacrifice far greater than the body and blood of Christ?
And the Church was made of pagan as well like Paul etc. Was the NT written in Hebrew or Greek? A
After 33AD, there is no jews or pagan instead just the condemned and children of God.
Hah .. Christians are Jews??
Anti-Christ build up the Temple? Gosh!
Paul was a pagan? Gosh!
NT written in Greek, but that 's not an issue. -
Paul? a pagan? the Apostle Paul aka Saul, is a Pharisee.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:But that convenant is voided. The NT said so clearly. Christians are Jews who obeyed the divine revelations. Furthermore, it is the Antichrist who will build up the Temple. And lastly, the Eucharist is the most perfect form of sacrifice. Can there a sacrifice far greater than the body and blood of Christ?
And the Church was made of pagan as well like Paul etc. Was the NT written in Hebrew or Greek? A
After 33AD, there is no jews or pagan instead just the condemned and children of God.
All the Apostles are Jews
The first 3000 converts on the Day of Pentacost are all Jews.
convenant? you mean covenant? do you know what is a covenant?
Far be it that God should go back on Himself, no, God's word is ethernal and He is faithful, so is His covenant with His people, when God said He will, He meant He will.
The Eucharist is the most perfect form of sacrifice? no, its not, its not the most perfect sacrifice, its not even a scarifice, its is at most a reminder of the perfect sacrifice of our Lord.
There is only one scarifice and its at the Cross where Jesus was cruificed almost 2000yrs ago, that scarifices is already done, Christ had already rose from the dead and now seat at the right Hand of God. You cannot bring him down again to be sacrifice again.
Antichrist built the temple? interesting notion? can I check with you where is your source on this? -
Paul said the Old Convenant has been superceded by the New. The New is fulfilment of the Old. And the Eucharist is the most perfect form of sacrifice. The priest changes the bread into the blood of christ and offers it up to the Father. Naturally some Protestant sect reject the Real presence and so its a pity they will never possese the perfect sacrifice. Read the Last Supper and be amazed.Originally posted by vince69:Paul? a pagan? the Apostle Paul aka Saul, is a Pharisee.
All the Apostles are Jews
The first 3000 converts on the Day of Pentacost are all Jews.
convenant? you mean covenant? do you know what is a covenant?
Far be it that God should go back on Himself, no, God's word is ethernal and He is faithful, so is His covenant with His people, when God said He will, He meant He will.
The Eucharist is the most perfect form of sacrifice? no, its not, its not the most perfect sacrifice, its not even a scarifice, its is at most a reminder of the perfect sacrifice of our Lord.
There is only one scarifice and its at the Cross where Jesus was cruificed almost 2000yrs ago, that scarifices is already done, Christ had already rose from the dead and now seat at the right Hand of God. You cannot bring him down again to be sacrifice again.
Antichrist built the temple? interesting notion? can I check with you where is your source on this?
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, Â… Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed , the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." 2 Thess 2:3-4 -
Some Muslims even consider Paul to be the antichrist for distorting Christ Gospel....
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Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
please check your dictionary
Paul said the Old Convenant has been superceded by the New. The New is fulfilment of the Old. And the Eucharist is the most perfect form of sacrifice. The priest changes the bread into the blood of christ and offers it up to the Father. Naturally some Protestant sect reject the Real presence and so its a pity they will never possese the perfect sacrifice. Read the Last Supper and be amazed.
"Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, Â… Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed , the man doomed to destruction. He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that [b]he sets himself up in God's temple, proclaiming himself to be God." 2 Thess 2:3-4
[/b]
fulfilled not means removed. It can also means to fulfill the requirements for the covenant to be enforced.
To be honest, its not the real presence that some is having problem with, its the part 'The priest changes the bread into the blood of christ and offers it up to the Father', the sacrifice had already been offered, Christ had already rose from the dead, why is there a need to offer Him again and again (neverending story ah?) or you don't dare to ask this question? No, Christ had offered Himself Once and for all, there is no need to repeat His death over and over again.
The communion is not about offering Him again to the Father, its about us partaking in His death and also in His resurrection.
Its not reminding God about Christ's sacrifice (God never forget), Its about reminding us again and again least we lose focus of the Cross of Christ.
on the last part, read your quotes again, yes, the part in bold, and ask yourself these questions. where did he sets himself up? its in God's Temple. are saying God's Temple built by the antichrist? can good come out from evil? -
Its everyone's guess, its obvious the church do not agree with this (not even Catholic Traditions)Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Some Muslims even consider Paul to be the antichrist for distorting Christ Gospel.... -
It's amazing how you guys are still keeping up with the pope.
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1) The issue of the Sacrifice of the Mass is beyond this thread....read the Last Supper and revelations is rather enlightening as well.Originally posted by vince69:please check your dictionary
fulfilled not means removed. It can also means to fulfill the requirements for the covenant to be enforced.
To be honest, its not the real presence that some is having problem with, its the part 'The priest changes the bread into the blood of christ and offers it up to the Father', the sacrifice had already been offered, Christ had already rose from the dead, why is there a need to offer Him again and again (neverending story ah?) or you don't dare to ask this question? No, Christ had offered Himself Once and for all, there is no need to repeat His death over and over again.
The communion is not about offering Him again to the Father, its about us partaking in His death and also in His resurrection.
Its not reminding God about Christ's sacrifice (God never forget), Its about reminding us again and again least we lose focus of the Cross of Christ.
on the last part, read your quotes again, yes, the part in bold, and ask yourself these questions. where did he sets himself up? its in God's Temple. are saying God's Temple built by the antichrist? can good come out from evil?
2) God's Temple was destroyed in 70AD. For the AntiChrist to set himself upon the Temple and claim to be God, he has to build one. Was it not man who built and detroyed his temple....can man not build it again...especially the Son of Perdition? -
The only place where the phrase “Old Covenant” is used in the New Testament is in Paul’s letter to the Corinthians, and Paul says that “through Christ it is taken away” (2 Cor. 3:14). Referring to the 'voidance' of the Old Covenant, Paul tells the Hebrews that “a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness” (Heb. 7:1
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The phrase “set aside” (from the Greek aphetesis) means to annul. Again, referring to the Old Covenant, Paul says “He abolishes the first in order to establish the second” (Heb. 10:9). The word “abolish” (from the Greek anaireo) means to abrogate or destroy. Paul uses very specific language to teach that the Old Covenant has been rendered null and void by the New Covenant of Jesus Christ (see also Heb. 8:7).
Scripture is clear that God owes the Jews nothing more, and suggests that the Jews are suffering the consquences of rejecting Jesus Christ. They have been “broken off” of the root of Christ “because of their unbelief” (Rom. 11:19-20). However, Paul says that the Jews can be grafted in again, “if they do not persist in their unbelief,” for God has the power to do so (Rom. 11:23) -
Originally posted by M©+square:It's amazing how you guys are still keeping up with the pope. I sure can't keep up.....
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1st, please, go and study what is a covenant.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:The only place where the phrase “Old Covenant” is used in the New Testament is in Paul’s letter to the Corinthians, and Paul says that “through Christ it is taken away” (2 Cor. 3:14). Referring to the 'voidance' of the Old Covenant, Paul tells the Hebrews that “a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness” (Heb. 7:1.
The phrase “set aside” (from the Greek aphetesis) means to annul. Again, referring to the Old Covenant, Paul says “He abolishes the first in order to establish the second” (Heb. 10:9). The word “abolish” (from the Greek anaireo) means to abrogate or destroy. Paul uses very specific language to teach that the Old Covenant has been rendered null and void by the New Covenant of Jesus Christ (see also Heb. 8:7).
Scripture is clear that God owes the Jews nothing more, and suggests that the Jews are suffering the consquences of rejecting Jesus Christ. They have been “broken off” of the root of Christ “because of their unbelief” (Rom. 11:19-20). However, Paul says that the Jews can be grafted in again, “if they do not persist in their unbelief,” for God has the power to do so (Rom. 11:23)
2nd, please understand, in the OT there are more than 1 covenant, and what is it that says we are grafted in as Abraham's decendant, and what is God's covenant with Abraham (Isaac, Jacob) about, and while you are there, also go figure out what is God's covenant with Noah, and also with David.
This is serious, cause for any of these to be abolished, its also means Christianity also kapish, gone case.
don't understand?
1) we are now join-heir to the promises to Abraham (God's covenant with Abraham)
2) Its God's promises to David that there will be a decendant on his throne (Christ)
3) Its the covenant with Noah that God promises continuity and never to destroy the earth, and the promise is this, this is in effect as long as the seasons continues and heaven and earth exist, and whenever He sees a rainbow, He will remember this covenant.
meaning, if the first 2 is gone, Christianity also gone (Church also no use), for the third to be gone, will means chaos in weather and earth and everyone wipe out.
.... these are just examples....
oh ... you may need to do some research on what is this 'Old Covenant' that Paul is actually refering to ... Bible reading time? -
orh ... unker, do something leh ... laggi sianz already ... can add in somethings or not... actually we are all OOT liao...Originally posted by Chin Eng: I sure can't keep up..... -
Please ask yourself a foundation question - what kind of God is He who abolishes a Covenant?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:The phrase “set aside” (from the Greek aphetesis) means to annul. Again, referring to the Old Covenant, Paul says “He abolishes the first in order to establish the second” (Heb. 10:9). The word “abolish” (from the Greek anaireo) means to abrogate or destroy. Paul uses very specific language to teach that the Old Covenant has been rendered null and void by the New Covenant of Jesus Christ (see also Heb. 8:7).
If your God can abolish the "Old" Covenant, what is stopping Him from abolishing your "New" Covenant sometime in the future? Maybe the next Covenant will be called the "Final" Covenant ..
Do you want to worship such a God? -
We are no longer under the OTlaws, but we must still uphold the OT principles. This is because, with the death and resurrection of Christ, we are no longer in the system of law but the system of grace, if we approach God with faith in Jesus Christ.Originally posted by Icemoon:Please ask yourself a foundation question - what kind of God is He who abolishes a Covenant?
If your God can abolish the "Old" Covenant, what is stopping Him from abolishing your "New" Covenant sometime in the future? Maybe the next Covenant will be called the "Final" Covenant ..
Do you want to worship such a God?
This was God's original purpose in giving the Jews the law - to move them to love God and their neighbor as themselves. But like STPaul so often writes about, the Jews began to boast about their relationship with God in the law because they had the law written on tablets, and the Gentiles did not. In so doing, the Jews began to view God in a legalistic sense, like a debtor who owed them for their works, rather than a Father who owed them nothing, but would love them if they were to be faithful. When we donÂ’t apprpoach God as our loving Father through faith in Jesus Christ, we convert our relationship with God from a covenantal to a contratcual one. Thus, our works become based on law (contract), not grace (covenant).
Therefore, to answer the question: we are no longer under the "letter" of the law, but are under the "principle" of the law. This is the New Covenant, which is the "law of Christ". It has retained all that was good and holy in the Old Covenant, and has perfeyced those laws in love. -
Please read Jeremiah for a proper understanding of the New Covenant. Yes, the 'New Covenant' is biblical .. even the OT has it.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Scripture is clear that God owes the Jews nothing more, and suggests that the Jews are suffering the consquences of rejecting Jesus Christ. They have been “broken off” of the root of Christ “because of their unbelief” (Rom. 11:19-20). However, Paul says that the Jews can be grafted in again, “if they do not persist in their unbelief,” for God has the power to do so (Rom. 11:23)
Jeremiah 31 (NRSV)
I don't mean you stop at 31:31-32. Read further. Read other chapters too.
31 The days are surely coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. 32It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt—a covenant that they broke, though I was their husband,* says the Lord. -
Don't be silly. When are you ever under the OT laws?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:We are no longer under the OTlaws, but we must still uphold the OT principles. This is because, with the death and resurrection of Christ, we are no longer in the system of law but the system of grace, if we approach God with faith in Jesus Christ.
Please grab any rabbi and ask, are gentiles ever under the OT laws??
Edit: I'm sure the Jewish rabbis and sages read the Tanakh more than you read your OT, and they read it in the original Hebrew. How come they can arrive at a different conclusion from you? -
A christian is something like a messianic jew. He doesnt have to follow the Laws as it is voided but instead follow the Laws of Christ which is in accordance with the principle of the OT LAws....Originally posted by Icemoon:Don't be silly. When are you ever under the OT laws?
Please grab any rabbi and ask, are gentiles ever under the OT laws??
Edit: I'm sure the Jewish rabbis and sages read the Tanakh more than you read your OT, and they read it in the original Hebrew. How come they can arrive at a different conclusion from you? -
Yup...the New Convenant wont be like the Old Convenant. Very true.Originally posted by Icemoon:I don't mean you stop at 31:31-32. Read further. Read other chapters too.
Jesus is the Deliverer who comes from Zion to establish the New Covenant with His Incarnation. Just as Isaiah said that the Deliverer will “banish ungodliness from Jacob,” so Gabriel tells Mary at the Annunnciation that Christ would “reign over the house of Jacob” (Luke 1:33). Just as Isaiah said the Deliverer will “take away sins,” so Zecharaih says that Jesus would grant “the forgiveness of sins” (Luke 1:77). Just as Jeremiah (who Paul quotes in Romans 11:27) said that God will establish his “covenant” with the Jews, Zechariah says that God has remembered “his holy covenant” in Christ (Luke 1:72). All these parallels, and many more, proves Christ is the Messiah and the establishment of the New Convenant.
Paul warned the Jews that they were cut off the vine because of thier UNBELIEF.... -
OT a bit .. actual God's original purpose in giving the Jews the law is not so much to move them to love God and their neighbor. Because if you look at history, the Israelites and later the Jews are constantly falling into idolatory!Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:This was God's original purpose in giving the Jews the law - to move them to love God and their neighbor as themselves. But like STPaul so often writes about, the Jews began to boast about their relationship with God in the law because they had the law written on tablets, and the Gentiles did not. In so doing, the Jews began to view God in a legalistic sense, like a debtor who owed them for their works, rather than a Father who owed them nothing, but would love them if they were to be faithful. When we donÂ’t apprpoach God as our loving Father through faith in Jesus Christ, we convert our relationship with God from a covenantal to a contratcual one. Thus, our works become based on law (contract), not grace (covenant). So what now? Jeer at God for His failed experiment in cultivating righteous human?
There are reasons why the law was given. In Judaism, nothing is taken for granted, no one is told to suspend his or her belief. In fact, there are reasons why the 10 statements (which Christians call the 10 commandments) are given. If you understand it, it is actually very beautiful. Well, obviously Christians don't understand it. That's why they think the law is a curse, since no one can fulfill even the 10 commandments.
Anyway, one reason why the law was given is that God wanted to set aside a group of people to be the light of the world. During the Messianic age, they will be the people gentiles will turn to. Before that, they will be a witness to God. For example, the observance of Sabbath, one of the "10 commandments", is to commemorate the creation of the world. Are they successful? I'd say so. Now most people associate Sabbath with "they rest because God rested on the seventh day of creation".
Historically the law is what kept the Jewish people alive. The law is their identity. It doesn't matter whether you are a Jew in Spain, or a Jew in Poland, you keep the same law. If you convert to Christianity or renounce your faith, too bad for you, you are out of the league. Just think for a moment - if the Jews mass-convert to Christianity in 33AD .. will there still be Israel in 1948? Will there still be the holocaust? Most probably not .. because you can't identity who is Jewish and who is not!
To this day, they are the only nation that has been destroyed and came back again. The credit goes to the Torah. -
This is rubbish.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:A christian is something like a messianic jew. He doesnt have to follow the Laws as it is voided but instead follow the Laws of Christ which is in accordance with the principle of the OT LAws....
Messianic Jews follow the Laws in the OT. The Laws are not voided to them!
The difference is that they embrace Yeshua as well. Go ask Brey.
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I ask you to read Jeremiah. You so fast finish and read/quote other books liao?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Yup...the New Convenant wont be like the Old Convenant. Very true.
Jesus is the Deliverer who comes from Zion to establish the New Covenant with His Incarnation. Just as Isaiah said that the Deliverer will “banish ungodliness from Jacob,” so Gabriel tells Mary at the Annunnciation that Christ would “reign over the house of Jacob” (Luke 1:33). Just as Isaiah said the Deliverer will “take away sins,” so Zecharaih says that Jesus would grant “the forgiveness of sins” (Luke 1:77). Just as Jeremiah (who Paul quotes in Romans 11:27) said that God will establish his “covenant” with the Jews, Zechariah says that God has remembered “his holy covenant” in Christ (Luke 1:72). All these parallels, and many more, proves Christ is the Messiah and the establishment of the New Convenant.
Paul warned the Jews that they were cut off the vine because of thier UNBELIEF.... -
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
wonder how much of these you put into practice or even believe in?
We are no longer under the OTlaws, but we must still uphold the OT principles. This is because, with the death and resurrection of Christ, we are no longer in the system of law but the system of grace, if we approach God with faith in Jesus Christ.
This was God's original purpose in giving the Jews the law - to move them to love God and their neighbor as themselves. But like STPaul so often writes about, the Jews began to boast about their relationship with God in the law because they had the law written on tablets, and the Gentiles did not. In so doing, the Jews began to view God in a legalistic sense, like a debtor who owed them for their works, rather than a Father who owed them nothing, but would love them if they were to be faithful. When we donÂ’t apprpoach God as our loving Father through faith in Jesus Christ, we convert our relationship with God from a covenantal to a contratcual one. Thus, our works become based on law (contract), not grace (covenant).
[b]Therefore, to answer the question: we are no longer under the "letter" of the law, but are under the "principle" of the law. This is the New Covenant, which is the "law of Christ". It has retained all that was good and holy in the Old Covenant, and has perfeyced those laws in love. [/b] -
Actually I realize you never answer the question.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:A christian is something like a messianic jew. He doesnt have to follow the Laws as it is voided but instead follow the Laws of Christ which is in accordance with the principle of the OT LAws....
I asked whether gentiles are to follow the Laws. How come you reply is about Christians?