Ever Virgin???
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That post was meant for MC2 alone.Originally posted by Icemoon:You got it all wrong.
I am not a Christian. If you read my posting, I lean towards Judaism more. So I care nothing about church father or reformers. Quote from the Talmud if you want to convince me.
vince is not a traditional protestant. In fact he will be hard pressed to quote anything from the greats. Maybe you can ask him to quote Hagin or Copeland.
Mc2 is the most learned among the three of us. He read Calvin's Institutes and other Protestant works. He doesn't reject them, only questions them. -
Triumphed doesn't mean anything. It could be because of luck and ingenuity. Like Microsoft, if not for the PC-DOS, will Bill Gates be so successful today? Maybe not.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:But the proto-orthodox truimphed....
Anyways, the scripture verses (MAt1:25, Luke1:31 and John) which we clashed, I provided 3 Church Fathers which uses the same arguments as Apologist John Salza.
Remember, God shows His glory in weaknesses. It is the destroy also cannot be destroyed things that truly shows the glory and preservation of God.
I am referring to the Jewish nation.
And why did they survive? Because of the Law! The very thing the Church Fathers were trying to demolish in the new faith called Christianity.
And what did Tradition give birth? Schism. Crusades. Inquisition. Reformation. -
And ur ideals gave birth to Zionism.Originally posted by Icemoon:Triumphed doesn't mean anything. It could be because of luck and ingenuity. Like Microsoft, if not for the PC-DOS, will Bill Gates be so successful today? Maybe not.
Remember, God shows His glory in weaknesses. It is the destroy also cannot be destroyed things that truly shows the glory and preservation of God.
I am referring to the Jewish nation.
And why did they survive? Because of the Law! The very thing the Church Fathers were trying to demolish in the new faith called Christianity.
And what did Tradition give birth? Schism. Crusades. Inquisition. Reformation.
Tradition did not give birth to any of those.
Schism - Rejection of Church Authority
Crusades - Military and politcal might
Inquisition - Protect Europe from secret Muslims and Jews who captured church hierachy.
Reformation: A rejection of Tradition -
correction,Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:And ur ideals gave birth to Zionism.
Tradition did not give birth to any of those.
Schism - Rejection of Church Authority
Crusades - Military and politcal might
Inquisition - Protect Europe from secret Muslims and Jews who captured church hierachy.
Reformation: A rejection of Tradition
Reformantion was started off as a protest of errant church practices, not a rejection of tradition, Luther's 95thesis was sparked off by the practice of selling/buying of indulgence. Orginally, he had no intention to split from the church (personally I feel that he was actually booted out), probably why you can find that they actually still holds on to a lot of church traditions. -
Luther was anathema i think.Originally posted by vince69:correction,
Reformantion was started off as a protest of errant church practices, not a rejection of tradition, Luther's 95thesis was sparked off by the practice of selling/buying of indulgence. Orginally, he had no intention to split from the church (personally I feel that he was actually booted out), probably why you can find that they actually still holds on to a lot of church traditions.
But he had a choice of recanting his theologies.
He replied to Johann Eck in the Diet that he rejects Tradition and Councils and Popes as they contradict each other.
I dont think any protestant hold on to oral tradition (besides written ones like scripture and church fathers). -
Yes, reformation is a wake up call for the corrupted Church AT THAT TIME.Originally posted by vince69:correction,
Reformantion was started off as a protest of errant church practices, not a rejection of tradition, Luther's 95thesis was sparked off by the practice of selling/buying of indulgence. Orginally, he had no intention to split from the church (personally I feel that he was actually booted out), probably why you can find that they actually still holds on to a lot of church traditions.
To me, Luther is still a Catholic.
Icemoon, i didn't read much on Luther... -
Actually i don't care if Mary is a virgin after Jesus's birth or not(It was not documented clearly, or scripturally supported on either views). That's why didn't bother to argue about it.
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Actually Zionism is not supported in traditional Judaism you know .. kekeOriginally posted by Pope Nicholas:And ur ideals gave birth to Zionism.
Tradition did not give birth to any of those.
Schism - Rejection of Church Authority
Crusades - Military and politcal might
Inquisition - Protect Europe from secret Muslims and Jews who captured church hierachy.
Reformation: A rejection of Tradition
Schism - why is there an authority in the first place? An authority that people buay song?
LOL .. Jews captured church hierarchy?
Reformation - once again, an authority that people buay song. -
yah lor .. his eucharist is neither here nor there one.Originally posted by M©+square:To me, Luther is still a Catholic. -
so did they contradict each other?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:He replied to Johann Eck in the Diet that he rejects Tradition and Councils and Popes as they contradict each other.
why didn't they show Luther they didn't contradict each other? -
Johann Eck did. He succeeded in gaining victory over Luther in a debate over the papacy, penance and purgatory.Originally posted by Icemoon:so did they contradict each other?
why didn't they show Luther they didn't contradict each other?
Here is the part where Luther said they contradict.
Counsellor Eck, after countering that Luther had no right to teach contrary to the Church through the ages, asked Luther to plainly answer the question: "Would Luther reject his books and the errors they contain?"
Luther replied: "Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason—I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other—my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe."
According to tradition, Luther is then said to have spoken these words: "Hier stehe ich. Ich kann nicht anders. Gott helfe mir. Amen." ("Here I stand. I have no choice. God help me. Amen.") Some scholars now question whether these famous words were actually spoken, however, since only the last four appear in contemporary accounts. -
So did he convince Luther they dont contradict?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Johann Eck did. He succeeded in gaining victory over Luther in a debate over the papacy, penance and purgatory.
why or why not? -
Actually, based on Historical accounts, Johann Eck did not really succeeded in gaining victory over Luther, all that he said was that Luther do not have the authority to contridict the church (ie... shut up, you no right to say this), which is in essence an end to all argument.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Johann Eck did. He succeeded in gaining victory over Luther in a debate over the papacy, penance and purgatory.
Here is the part where Luther said they contradict.
Counsellor Eck, after countering that Luther had no right to teach contrary to the Church through the ages, asked Luther to plainly answer the question: "Would Luther reject his books and the errors they contain?"
Luther replied: "Unless I am convicted by Scripture and plain reason—I do not accept the authority of popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other—my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and will not recant anything, for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe."
According to tradition, Luther is then said to have spoken these words: "Hier stehe ich. Ich kann nicht anders. Gott helfe mir. Amen." ("Here I stand. I have no choice. God help me. Amen.") Some scholars now question whether these famous words were actually spoken, however, since only the last four appear in contemporary accounts.
incidently, one of Luther's contention on the teaching of Pipe Leo X at that time was shown to be true, and was declared an unlawful practice some 50years later, by Pope Pius V in 1567.
btw Johann Eck's mission is not about winning an arugment with Luther, his is a mission to demand Luther to recant his theology by the authority and command of the Pope. -
I merely gave the story of the Diet.Originally posted by vince69:Actually, based on Historical accounts, Johann Eck did not really succeeded in gaining victory over Luther, all that he said was that Luther do not have the authority to contridict the church (ie... shut up, you no right to say this), which is in essence an end to all argument.
incidently, one of Luther's contention on the teaching of Pipe Leo X at that time was shown to be true, and was declared an unlawful practice some 50years later, by Pope Pius V in 1567.
btw Johann Eck's mission is not about winning an arugment with Luther, his is a mission to demand Luther to recant his theology by the authority and command of the Pope.
Here is the titanic clash:
The disputation between Eck and Karlstadt began at Leipzig on 27 June 1519. In the first four sessions Eck maintained the thesis that free will is the active agent in the creation of good works, but he was compelled by his opponent to modify his position so as to concede that the grace of God and free will work in harmony toward the common end. Karlstadt then proceeded to prove that good works are to be ascribed to the agency of God alone, whereupon Eck yielded so far as to admit that free will is passive in the beginning of conversion, although he maintained that in course of time it enters into its rights; so that while the entirety of good works originates in God, their accomplishment is not entirely the work of God.
Despite the fact that Eck was thus virtually forced to abandon his position, he succeeded, through his good memory and his dialectic skill, in confusing the heavy-witted Karlstadt and carried off the nominal victory. He was far less successful against Luther, who, as Eck himself confessed, was his superior in memory, acumen, and learning. After a disputation on the absolute supremacy of the papacy, purgatory, penance, etc., lasting twenty-three days (4 July–27 July), the arbitrators declined to give a verdict, but the general impression was that victory rested with Eck. He did succeed in making Luther admit that there was some truth in the Hussite opinions and declare himself against the pope, but this success only embittered his animosity against his opponents, and from that time his whole efforts were devoted to Luther's overthrow. Eck was greeted as victor by the theologians of the University of Leipzig, who overwhelmed him with honors and sent him away with gifts. -
can don't copy and paste or not?
engage people using your own words.
So did he convince Luther that they don't contradict? Why or why not. -
Thats the debate which johann eck truimphed over Luther. I am trying to find excerpts of the debate if possible.Originally posted by Icemoon:can don't copy and paste or not?
engage people using your own words.
So did he convince Luther that they don't contradict? Why or why not. -
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
read the part in bold, against Karlstadt, Eck have a nominal victory,
I merely gave the story of the Diet.
Here is the titanic clash:
The disputation between Eck and Karlstadt began at Leipzig on 27 June 1519. In the first four sessions Eck maintained the thesis that free will is the active agent in the creation of good works, but he was compelled by his opponent to modify his position so as to concede that the grace of God and free will work in harmony toward the common end. Karlstadt then proceeded to prove that good works are to be ascribed to the agency of God alone, whereupon Eck yielded so far as to admit that free will is passive in the beginning of conversion, although he maintained that in course of time it enters into its rights; so that while the entirety of good works originates in God, their accomplishment is not entirely the work of God.
Despite the fact that Eck was thus virtually forced to abandon his position, he succeeded, through his good memory and his dialectic skill, in confusing the heavy-witted Karlstadt and carried off the nominal victory. He was far less successful against Luther, who, as Eck himself confessed, was his superior in memory, acumen, and learning. After a disputation on the absolute supremacy of the papacy, purgatory, penance, etc., lasting twenty-three days (4 July–27 July), the arbitrators declined to give a verdict, but the general impression was that victory rested with Eck. He did succeed in making Luther admit that there was some truth in the Hussite opinions and declare himself against the pope, but this success only embittered his animosity against his opponents, and from that time his whole efforts were devoted to Luther's overthrow. Eck was greeted as victor by the theologians of the University of Leipzig, who overwhelmed him with honors and sent him away with gifts.
against Luther, he was far less successful, meaning far less than a even a nominal victory (doesn't sound like a thrashing to me). also Eck himself admit that Luther was his superior in memory, acumen, and learning (meaning Eck admit defeat in all three area).
'the arbitrators declined to give a verdict, but the general impression was that victory rested with Eck", meaning no verdict, meaning no one was declare a winner (seriously doubt they dare declare Luther the winner)
the last part "Eck was greeted as victor by the theologians of the University of Leipzig, who overwhelmed him with honors and sent him away with gifts", what else do you expect those theologians do to Eck? remember he is representing the Pope, don't like him also must give some 'face' to the Pope. -
Ech confessed Luther was superior BEFORE the debate. And yet with such qualites, Luther could not defeat Johann Eck.Originally posted by vince69:read the part in bold, against Karlstadt, Eck have a nominal victory,
against Luther, he was far less successful, meaning far less than a even a nominal victory (doesn't sound like a thrashing to me). also Eck himself admit that Luther was his superior in memory, acumen, and learning (meaning Eck admit defeat in all three area).
'the arbitrators declined to give a verdict, but the general impression was that victory rested with Eck", meaning no verdict, meaning no one was declare a winner (seriously doubt they dare declare Luther the winner)
the last part "Eck was greeted as victor by the theologians of the University of Leipzig, who overwhelmed him with honors and sent him away with gifts", what else do you expect those theologians do to Eck? remember he is representing the Pope, don't like him also must give some 'face' to the Pope.
10min ago, i went thru most of the sites here.
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geuu2Se7VFfiABz.9XNyoA?p=johann+eck+luther+debate&ei=UTF-8&fr=yfp-t-501&fp_ip=SG&x=wrt&meta=0
All of them declared Johann Eck was victorious. Johann Eck victory though infuriated Luther against the Papacy.
In Newadvent, Johann eck is protrayed to be more important (biased source)
In there, it says Eck alone refuted the COnfessions by Zingli.
Zwingli also had presented at Augsburg a Confession of Faith and this Eck alone refuted. Eck then drew up 404 heretical theses upon which he challenged the Protestant theologians to public debate. The challenge was not accepted; the only answer from the Protestant party was a torrent of abuse. -
Originally posted by vince69:
He was not a representative of the Pope. In 1519, he was merely a theolgican. It was only after the victory, did he gain prominence.
[b
the last part "Eck was greeted as victor by the theologians of the University of Leipzig, who overwhelmed him with honors and sent him away with gifts", what else do you expect those theologians do to Eck? remember he is representing the Pope, don't like him also must give some 'face' to the Pope.[/b] -
so he represented himself?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:He was not a representative of the Pope. In 1519, he was merely a theolgican. It was only after the victory, did he gain prominence.
he is what denomination one? -
I'm sorry .. but do you expect any opposition or dissenter to triumph in our court of law against the government?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Ech confessed Luther was superior BEFORE the debate. And yet with such qualites, Luther could not defeat Johann Eck.[/i]
Remember the judiciary is independent from the executive.
Ahem .. you get my point. -
Actually I'm not interested in the debate.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Thats the debate which johann eck truimphed over Luther. I am trying to find excerpts of the debate if possible.
I just want my answer - did or did not Eck convince Luther that there was no contradiction. -
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Ech confessed Luther was superior BEFORE the debate. And yet with such qualites, Luther could not defeat Johann Eck.
[/i]
English language, sentance structure.
Despite the fact that Eck was thus virtually forced to abandon his position, he succeeded, through his good memory and his dialectic skill, in confusing the heavy-witted Karlstadt and carried off the nominal victory. He was far less successful against Luther, who, as Eck himself confessed, was his superior in memory, acumen, and learning.
1) read the whole statement as a whole.
a) Eck against Karlstadt, Eck was forced to abandon his position, yet still declare a nominal victory (wonder how someone who gave up his position can be declare a winner).
b) Eck against Luther, the statement here says, the result was far less sucessful than, meaning Eck perform even far worst than when he had done with Karlstadt, and the reason given for this poor performance is that Luther , was his superior in memory, acumen, and learning.
so this admission of Luther being superior is not before, but rather its after the debate.
2) History, Eck was sent by the Pope to debate with Luther, meaning he represent the Pope, the highest authority in the Church.
Don't give face to Eck, also must give face to the Pope he is representing.
Its human for all of them declared Johann Eck was victorious, I seriously anyone of them dare to go against the Pope (represented by Eck) and declare Luther the winner (unless they also want to be assossiate with Luther and get themselves excommunicated). -
Duh...a catholic theologican. but he was not sent by the Pope to counter Luther. The only person I am aware of being sent to counter Luther was Cardinal Cajetan who wasnt successful at all.Originally posted by Icemoon:so he represented himself?
he is what denomination one?
Johann Eck is a brilliant catholic theologican who challenged the Reformers himself in 1519.
He destroyed Zwingli theologies on couple of occasions. He was victoriius in defending the doctrine of transubstitution with Thomas Murner against Johann Oecolampadius in 1526. -
make it this way, to declare Luther the winner, would means indirectly supporting him in saying the Church under Pope Leo X is corrupted.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:He was not a representative of the Pope. In 1519, he was merely a theolgican. It was only after the victory, did he gain prominence.