Ever Virgin???
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so confusing.Originally posted by vince69:Actually, No, you can infer it to be so, but cannot conclude it.
reason being, all this verse said is that Joseph did not have sexual relation with Mary till the day she gave birth to Jesus, the first born.
Now, whether or not they have sexual relation after that, can only be a guess, ie, not necessary that they will have.
cheers
so did Mary have sexual relation before or not?
the verse is confusing because I thought Jesus was conceived without any "input" from Joseph? -
the verse simply said they did not have sexual relation before all the way till Jesus was born.Originally posted by Icemoon:so confusing.
so did Mary have sexual relation before or not?
the verse is confusing because I thought Jesus was conceived without any "input" from Joseph?
the verse did not say anything about them having it or not after Jesus was born. -
well .. either interpretation will contradict the belief that Mary is a perpetual virgin.Originally posted by vince69:the verse simply said they did not have sexual relation before all the way till Jesus was born.
the verse did not say anything about them having it or not after Jesus was born. -
So have you check who started the perpetual virgin concept?Originally posted by Icemoon:well .. either interpretation will contradict the belief that Mary is a perpetual virgin.
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According to Mr Pope .. it exists prior to the church fathers .. maybe the apostles?Originally posted by M©+square:So have you check who started the perpetual virgin concept? 
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The according to Icemoon leh?Originally posted by Icemoon:According to Mr Pope .. it exists prior to the church fathers .. maybe the apostles? -
The Protoevangelium of James was supposedly written in AD 120.Originally posted by M©+square:The according to Icemoon leh? -
Yes. The Virgin MAry must have died in his lifetime and surely her supposed children will be alive.Originally posted by Icemoon:The Protoevangelium of James was supposedly written in AD 120.
Do u trust him or a modern day fundamentlaist who threw away his Reformers teachings?
"Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . 'brothers' really means 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers."
Martin Luther, (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39). -
Who then is this supposed children you are refering to?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Yes. The Virgin MAry must have died in his lifetime and surely her supposed children will be alive.
Do u trust him or a modern day fundamentlaist who threw away his Reformers teachings?
"Christ . . . was the only Son of Mary, and the Virgin Mary bore no children besides Him . . . 'brothers' really means 'cousins' here, for Holy Writ and the Jews always call cousins brothers."
Martin Luther, (Sermons on John, chapters 1-4, 1537-39). -
No idea...some point to James son of Alpheus etc etc.Originally posted by vince69:Who then is this supposed children you are refering to?
But generally such thoughts were not accepted by the Church Fathers nor the Reformers.
Mary was Ever-Virgin. -
definitly not this Apostle James, cause he already dead, executed 62AD.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:No idea...some point to James son of Alpheus etc etc.
But generally such thoughts were not accepted by the Church Fathers nor the Reformers.
so we don't really know who this person is?
how then can we take his account into consideration if we don't even know who he is? -
*fans the flame*Originally posted by vince69:definitly not this Apostle James, cause he already dead, executed 62AD.
so we don't really know who this person is?
how then can we take his account into consideration if we don't even know who he is?
yah lor .. everyone knows that James was the first to be matryred.
tsk tsk .. that 120AD document authentic one or not? -
Did it ever say to be written by the Apostle James??? There are so many James.Originally posted by Icemoon:*fans the flame*
yah lor .. everyone knows that James was the first to be matryred.
tsk tsk .. that 120AD document authentic one or not?
Its authentic....i think it was used by St Jerome to rebut some Marian heresy. -
so who was the author?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Did it ever say to be written by the Apostle James??? There are so many James.
Its authentic....i think it was used by St Jerome to rebut some Marian heresy. -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_JamesOriginally posted by Icemoon:so who was the author?
James the Just....Joseph son.
According to the world-renowned patristics scholar, Johannes Quasten: "The principal aim of the whole writing [Protoevangelium of James] is to prove the perpetual and inviolate virginity of Mary before, in, and after the birth of Christ" (Patrology, 1:120–1). -
I tot James the Just is Apostle James, bishop of Jerusalem Church?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_James
James the Just....Joseph son.
According to the world-renowned patristics scholar, Johannes Quasten: "The principal aim of the whole writing [Protoevangelium of James] is to prove the perpetual and inviolate virginity of Mary before, in, and after the birth of Christ" (Patrology, 1:120–1).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_the_JustSaint James the Just (יעקב "Holder of the heel; supplanter"; Standard Hebrew Yaʿaqov, Tiberian Hebrew Yaʿăqōḇ
furthermore .. according to YOUR wiki url ..
, also called James Adelphos, James of Jerusalem, or the Brother of the Lord[1] and sometimes identified with James the Lesser, (died AD 62) was an important figure in Early Christianity. According to tradition, he was the first bishop or Patriarch of Jerusalem, the author of the Epistle of James in the New Testament, and the first of the Seventy of Luke 10:1-20. Scholars have established that, based on the style of the language, and the fact that the author is apparently not aware of contemporary Jewish customs while James the Just certainly was, the work is pseudepigraphical (written by someone other than the person it claims to be written by).
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Yes .. authentic 1st century letter.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Its authentic....i think it was used by St Jerome to rebut some Marian heresy.
An authentic pseudepigrapha. -
Haha so settle the perputual virginity of mary issue for nowOriginally posted by Icemoon:Yes .. authentic 1st century letter.
An authentic pseudepigrapha.
I have a question, Icemoon.
I came across this quote, whcih made me wonder.
"In his [Origen] first book on Matthew's Gospel, maintaining the Canon of the Church, he testifies that he knows only four Gospels, writing as follows: Among the four Gospels, which are the only indisputable ones in the Church of God under heaven, I have learned by tradition that the first was written by Matthew, who was once a publican, but afterwards an apostle of Jesus Christ, and it was prepared for the converts from Judaism, and published in the Hebrew language. The second is by Mark, who composed it according to the instructions of Peter, who in his Catholic epistle acknowledges him as a son, saying, 'The church that is at Babylon elected together with you, saluteth you, and so doth Marcus, my son.' And the third by Luke, the Gospel commended by Paul, and composed for Gentile converts. Last of all that by John." Origen, Commentary on Matthew, fragment in Eusebius Church History, 6:25,3 (A.D. 244).
Does that means we ahve really no idea who wrote the Gospel and that Apostolic Tradition alone is governing this Truth??? -
James the Just, Joseph son... is the one who you had been refering to as Jesus' supposed brother, also know as James the Apostle, Bishop of Jerusalem, who was excuted around the year 62AD.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of_James
James the Just....Joseph son.
According to the world-renowned patristics scholar, Johannes Quasten: "The principal aim of the whole writing [Protoevangelium of James] is to prove the perpetual and inviolate virginity of Mary before, in, and after the birth of Christ" (Patrology, 1:120–1).
wah ... you guys....
James the Just
is he the son of Joseph? son of Adelphos?
is he step brother of Jesus? or a cousin?
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The Gospels were written anonymously, unlike the epistles of Paul.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Does that means we ahve really no idea who wrote the Gospel and that Apostolic Tradition alone is governing this Truth???
So you are right .. we have no idea who wrote the Gospel.
As to the Apostolic Tradition question .. I'm not sure. I haven't study that yet. -
The step brother theory also kinda debunked.Originally posted by vince69:wah ... you guys....
James the Just
is he the son of Joseph? son of Adelphos?
is he step brother of Jesus? or a cousin?
Because it is hard to believe the Holy family tugged the children along .. to Egypt . to Bethehem etc.
If they are step siblings .. then they must be older than Jesus right? -
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=154829Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:I was shocked last nite when a protestant debater friend questioned me on the perputal virginity of Mary but pointing to a verse in Scripture that says Jesus had brothers. While i refuted him pointing to the term aldephos means cousins as well etc etc.
I am curious, is this a Protestant view or just his demented denomination viewpoint which also believes if u cannot speak in tongues, u will not be saved. If Im not mistaken Luther, Calvin also beleived in the Ever Virgin Mary. -
It's so strange that today we debate over this.
When the Prots fathers founded their churches, they didn't have issues on Every Virgin (see my link in my earlier reply).
But it seems that today, when you ask a Prot what is the difference between the two, he will like say "We worship Jesus and they Catholics "worship" Mary".
Did Martin Luther, J Calvin, King Henry etc found new churches because of this "difference"? - No.
Did they stop honouring Mary after they successfully founded a new church? - No. -
But the Protestant Fathers give us Sola Scriptura.
So where did the fathers get their Marian ideas from? -
All Prots fathers were Catholics and even after founding new churches, their understanding of Mariology still remained.Originally posted by Icemoon:But the Protestant Fathers give us Sola Scriptura.
So where did the fathers get their Marian ideas from?