do all christians go heaven?
-
Poor metaphor.Originally posted by davidche:so what should it be??
My stand is: salvation is a free ticket. We dont have to do good to get into heaven.
BUT, after we believe, we consequently do good.
You cannot use ticket to describe salvation.
For one, a ticket is transferrable, salvation is not.
-
edit: salvation is free.Originally posted by Icemoon:Poor metaphor.
You cannot use ticket to describe salvation.
For one, a ticket is transferrable, salvation is not. 
-
Matthew 7:13-14 NIV
Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.Matthew 25:41-43 NIV
For the many that choose the easy path and thinks that salvation is free - eternal fire awaits.
Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.' -
what's the implication?Originally posted by davidche:edit: salvation is free.
we can reject it? -
Salvation is a gift from God.Originally posted by Icemoon:what's the implication?
we can reject it?
Take it or lose it.
In ''gift'', i mean we didnt do anything to earn it.
Then why did God give this gift then? Because God is Love, he sees us fall. -
So arminian!!Originally posted by davidche:Salvation is a gift from God.
Take it or lose it.
I guess you believe in synergism then .. -
Gen. 22:1-18 – Abraham is further justified here, this time by works, when he offered his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God. James 2:21 proves this as James writes, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” James then confirms this by writing, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (James 2:23). These verses prove that justification before God is an on-going process, not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, and is accomplished by faith and works
Luke 6:20-38 - again, beatitudes, the love of enemies, giving to the needy, forgiving, bearing fruit - all these good works justify a man before God
Matt. 5:2-11 - Jesus' teaching of the beatitudes goes beyond faith - being pure, merciful, and peacemakers are all good works. They are acts of the will that are necessary for a right relationship with God.
Matt. 5:16 - Jesus confirms this by teaching, "let your light shine before men that they may see your 'good works' and give glory to God." Good works glorify God and increase our justification before the Father
Matt. 6:12 - forgive us our sins, not by how much faith we have, but as we forgive those who trespass against us.
Matt. 7:19-23 - just saying "Lord, Lord" and accepting Jesus as personal Savior is not enough. We must also bear the fruit of good works.
Matt. 19:16-22 - Jesus teaches the man to sell all he has and give it to the poor. It is not just about accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. We also need good works by keeping Jesus' commandments. -
kao!Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Gen. 22:1-18 – Abraham is further justified here, this time by works, when he offered his son Isaac as a sacrifice to God. James 2:21 proves this as James writes, “Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar?” James then confirms this by writing, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness” (James 2:23). These verses prove that justification before God is an on-going process, not a one-time event of accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, and is accomplished by faith and works
Luke 6:20-38 - again, beatitudes, the love of enemies, giving to the needy, forgiving, bearing fruit - all these good works justify a man before God
Matt. 5:2-11 - Jesus' teaching of the beatitudes goes beyond faith - being pure, merciful, and peacemakers are all good works. They are acts of the will that are necessary for a right relationship with God.
Matt. 5:16 - Jesus confirms this by teaching, "let your light shine before men that they may see your 'good works' and give glory to God." Good works glorify God and increase our justification before the Father
Matt. 6:12 - forgive us our sins, not by how much faith we have, but as we forgive those who trespass against us.
Matt. 7:19-23 - just saying "Lord, Lord" and accepting Jesus as personal Savior is not enough. We must also bear the fruit of good works.
Matt. 19:16-22 - Jesus teaches the man to sell all he has and give it to the poor. It is not just about accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. We also need good works by keeping Jesus' commandments.
may i know whats your bible version? -
Originally posted by davidche:
Jesus died so that those who did not offer burnt offering as sacrifice can be saved too. Thus not only Jews can go to heaven, but everyone else as well.
Salvation is a gift from God.
Take it or lose it.
In ''gift'', i mean we didnt do anything to earn it.
Then why did God give this gift then? Because God is Love, he sees us fall.
Salvation is not the gift from God, but rather the power of free will to choose our own eternal destiny. i.e formerly we were slaves to sin, but Jesus has redeemed us with his blood. Now we are free. How we make use of this freedom is up to us. We can still become slaves again, but because of the value of Jesus' blood we are redeemed in the future as well. Only at the end of time during the judgement will God judge our entire lives and see if our character and deeds are worthy enough to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Being holy is not overnight, but rather requires constant cultivation of character. As long as we desire in our hearts to be holy, we will find ourselves sinning less and less and doing more good deeds as time goes by and our strength of inner character increases.
Note: The value of Jesus blood is such that it redeems us past, present and future. Thus our souls belong to Jesus both retrospectively and prospectively in the timeline of our entire existence. As long as we desire to be holy and have pure character, our deeds will reflect this and God will judge our worthiness to enter the kingdom of heaven accordingly. -
skibi .. did you copy and paste from your previous replies?
-
New American Version....Well the Latin Vulgate is the most superior one thoughOriginally posted by davidche:kao!
may i know whats your bible version? -
Originally posted by Icemoon:
No, but i've been explaining it so many times until commited to memory already.
skibi .. did you copy and paste from your previous replies? -
Rubbish. The Latin Vulgate has lots of mistakes. Please do proper research.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:New American Version....Well the Latin Vulgate is the most superior one though
Saying the Latin Vulgate is most superior is like saying the KJV is the best. -
haha, and the version that rick warren uses in his bookOriginally posted by Icemoon:Rubbish. The Latin Vulgate has lots of mistakes. Please do proper research.
Saying the Latin Vulgate is most superior is like saying the KJV is the best. -
Originally posted by Skibi:
You have bible verses to support this(the good deeds part)? NIV would be good.
Jesus died so that those who did not offer burnt offering as sacrifice can be saved too. Thus not only Jews can go to heaven, but everyone else as well.
Salvation is not the gift from God, but rather [b]the power of free will to choose our own eternal destiny. i.e formerly we were slaves to sin, but Jesus has redeemed us with his blood. Now we are free. How we make use of this freedom is up to us. We can still become slaves again, but because of the value of Jesus' blood we are redeemed in the future as well. Only at the end of time during the judgement will God judge our entire lives and see if our character and deeds are worthy enough to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Being holy is not overnight, but rather requires constant cultivation of character. As long as we desire in our hearts to be holy, we will find ourselves sinning less and less and doing more good deeds as time goes by and our strength of inner character increases.
Note: The value of Jesus blood is such that it redeems us past, present and future. Thus our souls belong to Jesus both retrospectively and prospectively in the timeline of our entire existence. As long as we desire to be holy and have pure character, our deeds will reflect this and God will judge our worthiness to enter the kingdom of heaven accordingly.[/b]
as for the bolded, i dont see the difference between salvation and no salvation. -
Originally posted by davidche:
Can refer to this thread for quotes.
You have bible verses to support this(the good deeds part)? NIV would be good.
as for the bolded, i dont see the difference between salvation and no salvation.
http://sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=225836 -
In other words, although inner character(love God and man) is the most important, deeds are necessary too. Note that the Bible does not command us to have faith. Faith is a by-product of loving God. Faith by itself without true love for God and deeds to show is worthless.
but this is not what im taught leh... -
We don't HAVE to be good, but because God is in our hearts, we want to be more like Jesus. Being good is not something that will take us to Heaven, 'cause no matter how good we are, we still wouldnt be good enough. Instead, becoming a better person is a process that happens after we have Jesus in our hearts.Originally posted by Honeybunz:So you mean to say because Christ took away our sins, we don't have to be good? We can continue committing sins all we want, cuz Christ took away our sins. -
Its not our choice , but you lay down before the lord and pray that everyone does go to heaven.
-
You need to be clear of 2 things.Originally posted by davidche:
Faith that leads to Salvation.
And
Faith that leads to godliness(godly deeds, charity)
Threadstarter should also be objective. -
go heaven do what har?
-
Does it mean that there is only one way to be a good or better person?Originally posted by da-cheese-freakk:We don't HAVE to be good, but because God is in our hearts, we want to be more like Jesus. Being good is not something that will take us to Heaven, 'cause no matter how good we are, we still wouldnt be good enough. Instead, becoming a better person is a process that happens after we have Jesus in our hearts. -
You can have all the nice babes you want in heaven. All the blondes, asians, redheads and brunettes. It's gonna be a party over thereOriginally posted by dragg:go heaven do what har? -
Hmm, very long discussion on many pertinent points.
I picked up the overall key issue. Whether is salvation is temporal, or permanent, and whether deeds (or penance) is necessary to maintain salvation.
Very heavy issues.
For one, I believe that salvation has a permanency, for Christ has declared his work on the cross is complete. For things that has passsed, and things that has yet to come. All sins. His blood is not that of oxen and lambs where repeated sacrifice is necessary. His sacrifice is considered perfect.
With that, works, deeds and penance cannot make you anymore saved or anymore saved.
However, it is further mentioned, that being saved means being known by God. This implied walking with Him on a daily basis. This means having a relationship. To have a constant renewal of your mind. This means that it is not your deeds or the need for any good works to accompany your salvation. Rather it is your continual personal walk with God to exists for you to be regarded as a 'true Christian'.
Not those that declare him as God and Christ has saved him, and yet live a life that clearly depicts that rejects all that has been given to him.
Therefore, there is no one concrete physical means to determine a person is saved. It all has to do with ones intimate moments with God. Only God knows.
It is very tricky, but one thing is for sure. If in your mind, you are clearly doing deeds/penance to make yourself right with God - that is self-righteousness and in no way related to salvation. Your righteousness is solely that of Christ.
I would have thought the baptism issue is a done deal - both for all Christians and Catholics. It is not necessary for salvation. Salvation is very simple, no need for any traditions or even people.
Tied in very closely to salvation is love. God's love for you. Consider that aspect. Do remember that God has revealed through Christ that he is not 'Lord', but Father to us. The preceding versus indicating 'Lord' could be used to describe the Jewish perception and relationship of God. This is not directly applicable to us under the new covenant.