do all christians go heaven?
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One more thing .. please read about Sola Scriptura from reputable Protestant authors. Do not rely on the explanation given from the Catholic side.
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One more thing. I realize you like to quote Matthew 16:18.
8And I tell you, you are Peter,* and on this rock* I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.Â’
Do you know why the verse cannot be used to support your interpretation for the papacy?
Because the author of Matthew has put a safeguard just a few verses down.
Can you quote verse 23 for us? Thank you. -
THEORY
1) God isnt bound by laws.
He is higher than law.
1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath."
3He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6I tell you that one[a] greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,'[b] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."
2) Good isnt bound by law.
1Another time he went into the synagogue, and a man with a shriveled hand was there. 2Some of them were looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, so they watched him closely to see if he would heal him on the Sabbath. 3Jesus said to the man with the shriveled hand, "Stand up in front of everyone."
4Then Jesus asked them, "Which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to kill?" But they remained silent.
5He looked around at them in anger and, deeply distressed at their stubborn hearts, said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was completely restored. 6Then the Pharisees went out and began to plot with the Herodians how they might kill Jesus.
-So does Jesus want the thief to go to heaven or hell?
-Is God supposed to follow the law(if there is), that all believers should be baptised? -
Here, Icey, summarised for you,Originally posted by Icemoon:One more thing .. please read about Sola Scriptura from reputable Protestant authors. Do not rely on the explanation given from the Catholic side.
The Five Solas of the Reformation
Sola Scriptura - Part 1
Preached by Brett Baker
EASTSIDE EVANGELICAL FELLOWSHIP
A Biblical Defense of Sola Scriptura
"But you must continue in the things which you have learned and been assured of, knowing from whom you have learned them, and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:14-17 NKJV
This Latin phrase which translated means "Scripture alone" is the starting place for our study because from it emanates our other topics. Before we consider what this means, letÂ’s consider what it does not mean.
It does not mean that the Bible is the only place where truth can be found.
It does not mean that the Bible is equally clear to all people.
It does not mean that the instruction of Church is not helpful and authoritative.
It does mean however, that the Scriptures are our only ultimate and infallible authority for faith and practice.
We are not talking here however about "solo Scriptura" which might be what we would call those who want themselves to be the only teachers (the "just-gimme-me-and-my-Bible" group) and to repudiate all others.
We are however saying that the Scriptures are our final authority and that they are infallible. All other authorities, even though equally as valid, are subordinate to the Scriptures and are fallible.
Central to the question of Sola Scriptura is the question of sufficiency. The Protestant understanding is that the Scriptures are complete and that they are absolutely sufficient for all that we need for instruction in righteousness, faith and salvation. There is a distinction to be made between formal sufficiency and material sufficiency. The first pertains to whether the Scripture alone (apart from instructors, parents, and church discipline) is sufficient for all training. The second concept states that the message or content of the Scripture is sufficient. The Protestant position is that God has given the offices and authority to the Church as a blessing for her. However in all cases the content of the Scriptures is ultimately authoritative. -
vince, NCC got christmas eve service or not? anything special?
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Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
You make it sound as if to get into Heaven, you have to not only believe in Christ, but also be good. That's not exactly true. When Jesus died on the cross, he took all of our sins. His last words were "tetelestai" -- paid in full. Thus, by saying that you have to have a "full cup with clean water" before you can go to Heaven, you're saying that going to Heaven is still dependent on your good deeds, which leads to saying that when Jesus died, he wasn't good enough to take away all of our sins. Jesus WAS good enough, however.
Sounds like John Calvin haha.
Catholicism believes that baptism removes original sin and gives a state of grace. Mortal sins destroy this state of grace while venial sins adds impurites which can either be claensed through penance or in purgatory.
Analogy:
In baptism, a cup is filled with water. When one commit mortal sin, the water is emptied and the cup becomes empty. During the rite of Penance, water is filled back and the person is in the state of grace. If a person commits venial sins, the water gets dirtied (but there is still water). Doing penance or indulgnece or prayers will act like a filter to remove this impurities, making the water pure again.
[b]If u die and ur cup is filled with clean water, u go to heaven.
If u die and ur cup is empty (mortal sin), u go to Hell
If u die and ur cup is filled with DIRTY water, u will go to PURGATORY to be cleansed b4 u go to heaven.
[/b]
Romans 10:9
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. -
nothing special, just a single combined service at Indoor Stadium, one more coming Sunday (new Year Eve).Originally posted by Icemoon:vince, NCC got christmas eve service or not? anything special?
* cause Rock Auditorium being used for the combined Chinese/Hokien Service for this two Sundays.
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*sob sob* .. I am so touched .. vince often help me summarise things without me asking.Originally posted by vince69:Here, Icey, summarised for you
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is NCC expanding into other premises?Originally posted by vince69:nothing special, just a single combined service at Indoor Stadium, one more coming Sunday (new Year Eve).
* cause Rock Auditorium being used for the combined Chinese/Hokien Service for this two Sundays.
has the overflow room been overflowed?
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So you mean to say because Christ took away our sins, we don't have to be good? We can continue committing sins all we want, cuz Christ took away our sins.Originally posted by da-cheese-freakk:You make it sound as if to get into Heaven, you have to not only believe in Christ, but also be good. That's not exactly true. When Jesus died on the cross, he took all of our sins. His last words were "tetelestai" -- paid in full. Thus, by saying that you have to have a "full cup with clean water" before you can go to Heaven, you're saying that going to Heaven is still dependent on your good deeds, which leads to saying that when Jesus died, he wasn't good enough to take away all of our sins. Jesus WAS good enough, however.
Romans 10:9
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. -
then we wonder who is Christ to you.Originally posted by Honeybunz:So you mean to say because Christ took away our sins, we don't have to be good? We can continue committing sins all we want, cuz Christ took away our sins.
the cleaning lady in the toilet? Clean toilet bowl liao and you still pee all over the place. -
That's what I heard, overflow room? which one are you refering to?Originally posted by Icemoon:is NCC expanding into other premises?
has the overflow room been overflowed?
currently we have Main Audi (Rock Audi)+ 6th floor overflow + 4th floor overflow (for 4 services)
+ 2 theater room from EngWah during 1st Service only as overflow.
(no, not hear anything about building a church building yet) -
so many overflow .. I've only been to one. the one they use for midweek.Originally posted by vince69:That's what I heard, overflow room? which one are you refering to?
currently we have Main Audi (Rock Audi)+ 6th floor overflow + 4th floor overflow (for 4 services)
+ 2 theater room from EngWah during 1st Service only as overflow.
(no, not hear anything about building a church building yet)
huh .. theater room? meaning the cinema itself?? got movie screen that one??
I think the practice now is to rent venues, like Expo or Suntec exhibition halls. I remember FCBC used to have combined services at Suntec. -
Yup, last time, CHC also, now both at Expo.Originally posted by Icemoon:so many overflow .. I've only been to one. the one they use for midweek.
huh .. theater room? meaning the cinema itself?? got movie screen that one??
I think the practice now is to rent venues, like Expo or Suntec exhibition halls. I remember FCBC used to have combined services at Suntec.
Think the next thing will be satellite church like Lighthouse -
wah .. even FCBC at Expo now?!Originally posted by vince69:Yup, last time, CHC also, now both at Expo. -
Christian should be the correct term,Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Well, there is onli kinds of Christians...its a diverse grp wif 36 000 protestant sect (3/4 of them wierd cults in Europe).
All those who have trinitarian and chacelodian baptism are christians.
But personally, i find the term christian a pretty useless term. I rather catholic or methodist etc etc.
example:
The Disciples from the early church were first called Christian (not Catholic nor Methodist ...etc, these were names given after the reformation to differentiate between Roman Catholic and Postestants)
Acts 11:26
And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
The Apostle Peter also use this term to describe the believers.
1Peter4:16Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. -
nope. since when I said or meant that?Originally posted by Icemoon:then we wonder who is Christ to you.
the cleaning lady in the toilet? Clean toilet bowl liao and you still pee all over the place. -
yup, thats what I heardOriginally posted by Icemoon:wah .. even FCBC at Expo now?! -
of course you don't.Originally posted by Honeybunz:nope. since when I said or meant that?
it was a response to the hypothetical person who still continue to sin 'cos Christ took away his sins. -
well that's what da-cheese-freakk meant to tell us, isn't it?Originally posted by Icemoon:of course you don't.
it was a response to the hypothetical person who still continue to sin 'cos Christ took away his sins.
So was your response to da-cheese-freakk's msg? -
to be fair, he did not say the person believe in Christ and continue to sin willfully. Or believe in Christ in order to sin with a free ticket.Originally posted by Honeybunz:well that's what da-cheese-freakk meant to tell us, isn't it?
So was your response to da-cheese-freakk's msg? -
Originally posted by Icemoon:to be fair, he did not say the person believe in Christ and continue to sin willfully. Or believe in Christ in order to sin with a free ticket.Originally posted by da-cheese-freakk:You make it sound as if to get into Heaven, you have to not only believe in Christ, but also be good. That's not exactly true. When Jesus died on the cross, he took all of our sins. His last words were "tetelestai" -- paid in full. Thus, by saying that you have to have a "full cup with clean water" before you can go to Heaven, you're saying that going to Heaven is still dependent on your good deeds, which leads to saying that when Jesus died, he wasn't good enough to take away all of our sins. Jesus WAS good enough, however.
Romans 10:9
If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. -
the hightlighted part agrees with my statement.
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I agree with IcemoonOriginally posted by Icemoon:the hightlighted part agrees with my statement.
Cheese's msg is orthodox. -
so what should it be??
My stand is: salvation is a free ticket. We dont have to do good to get into heaven.
BUT, after we believe, we consequently do good.