do all christians go heaven?
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Baptism doesn't not guarantee salvation. Anyone can go for baptism, but God only predestinated some people to be saved.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Anyone who is baptised will go to heaven like the heretical doctrine of Once Saved, Always Saved ( OSAS)
Is that wad ua re saying
Many baptised people have backslided. It is doubtful whether they are saved in the first place if they continue to backslide to the end. -
To be cleansed of all impurites and sins as nothign that is unclean will enter the Kingdom of God.Originally posted by Icemoon:Bad Christians go purgatory to be cleansed first (the Catholic answer).
This is assumignt hose Christians are already saved as any Christian who die in the state of mortal sin will perish in Hell. -
Sounds like John Calvin haha.Originally posted by Icemoon:Baptism doesn't not guarantee salvation. Anyone can go for baptism, but God only predestinated some people to be saved.
Many baptised people have backslided. It is doubtful whether they are saved in the first place if they continue to backslide to the end.
Catholicism believes that baptism removes original sin and gives a state of grace. Mortal sins destroy this state of grace while venial sins adds impurites which can either be claensed through penance or in purgatory.
Analogy:
In baptism, a cup is filled with water. When one commit mortal sin, the water is emptied and the cup becomes empty. During the rite of Penance, water is filled back and the person is in the state of grace. If a person commits venial sins, the water gets dirtied (but there is still water). Doing penance or indulgnece or prayers will act like a filter to remove this impurities, making the water pure again.
If u die and ur cup is filled with clean water, u go to heaven.
If u die and ur cup is empty (mortal sin), u go to Hell
If u die and ur cup is filled with DIRTY water, u will go to PURGATORY to be cleansed b4 u go to heaven. -
nope, im focusing more on the definition of christian.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Anyone who is baptised will go to heaven like the heretical doctrine of Once Saved, Always Saved ( OSAS)
Is that wad ua re saying
some people even if he is not batised, he will also go heaven. -
Don't care whether Calvin or Luther. You can decide who has the best interpretation of Scripture and yet at the same time, preserve the sovereignity of God.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Sounds like John Calvin haha.
Catholicism believes that baptism removes original sin and gives a state of grace. Mortal sins destroy this state of grace while venial sins adds impurites which can either be claensed through penance or in purgatory.
How can baptism remove original sin when clearly there are some people who died unbaptised? Like the thief on the cross.
Actually I'm not sure whether it is right to say original sin can be removed. Hmm .. I rather stick with the Protestant use of justification. -
Well, there is onli kinds of Christians...its a diverse grp wif 36 000 protestant sect (3/4 of them wierd cults in Europe).Originally posted by davidche:nope, im focusing more on the definition of christian.
some people even if he is not batised, he will also go heaven.
All those who have trinitarian and chacelodian baptism are christians.
But personally, i find the term christian a pretty useless term. I rather catholic or methodist etc etc. -
Actually Christian is useful term because it reminds you that you are first and foremost a believer in Christ. After that comes your church or denomination.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:But personally, i find the term christian a pretty useless term. I rather catholic or methodist etc etc.
So even if the Catholic Church excom you .. you can still be a believer in Christ. -
Personally i feel that u must possese a correct or orthodox belief of Christ and that u must be in the Church he instituted. I always sae: Rather Catholic than Christian.Originally posted by Icemoon:Actually Christian is useful term because it reminds you that you are first and foremost a believer in Christ. After that comes your church or denomination.
So even if the Catholic Church excom you .. you can still be a believer in Christ.
Excommunication does mean u aint catholic. U jsut cannot take Holy Communion and lose all ur positions. Its a painful punishment for a Catholic. -
So sad .. you actually place your Church above Christ.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Personally i feel that u must possese a correct or orthodox belief of Christ and that u must be in the Church he instituted. I always sae: Rather Catholic than Christian.
Note that Christ comes before the Church, even in alphabetical order. (Chr comes before Chu).
Your belief is not supported in the Bible.
Romans 109because* if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For one believes with the heart and so is justified, and one confesses with the mouth and so is saved. 11The scripture says, ‘No one who believes in him will be put to shame.’ 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; the same Lord is Lord of all and is generous to all who call on him. 13For, ‘Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.’
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1) The Church is the Body of Christ and his Bride. Rejecting the Church is rejecting Him.Originally posted by Icemoon:
Eph. 5:23-27, Col. 1:18 - Christ is the head of the Church, His Bride, for which He died to make it Holy and without blemish. There is only one Church, just as Christ only has one Bride
2) Christ founded a Church and gave it his authority
Matt. 10:1,40 - Jesus declares to His apostles, "he who receives you, receives Me, and he who rejects you, rejects Me and the One who sent Me." Jesus freely gives His authority to the apostles in order for them to effectively convert the world.
Naturally, Catholicism will teach that this Church is built on Peter and is indeed the Body of Christ and hence there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
Protestantism teaches of a invisble church that lies in every believer. -
u haven answer the question on pple who are saved even when they are not baptised.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Naturally, Catholicism will teach that this Church is built on Peter and is indeed the Body of Christ and hence there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.
Protestantism teaches of a invisble church that lies in every believer. -
I believe there is a nice xplanation in the Catechism of the Church. If they do not intentionally reject the Catholic Church, they will be judged on their merit of thier works.Originally posted by laoda99:u haven answer the question on pple who are saved even when they are not baptised.
Catechism of the CC
"Outside the Church there is no salvation"
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men." -
how does the Cathechism explain why the thief was saved?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:I believe there is a nice xplanation in the Catechism of the Church. If they do not intentionally reject the Catholic Church, they will be judged on their merit of thier works. -
Do u recall how i mentioned penance and repentance purifies us of our sins. Those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven. He repented and suffered for his sins.Originally posted by Icemoon:how does the Cathechism explain why the thief was saved? -
so how does baptism come into the picture?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Do u recall how i mentioned penance and repentance purifies us of our sins. Those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven. He repented and suffered for his sins.
Because you said - Catholicism believes that baptism removes original sin and gives a state of grace. -
Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved." Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required.Originally posted by Icemoon:so how does baptism come into the picture?
Because you said - Catholicism believes that baptism removes original sin and gives a state of grace.
John 3:3,5 - unless we are "born again" of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase "born again" is "anothen" which literally means “begotten from above.”
However this is mainly for Christians. In the catechism, there is somethning called baptism by desire.
Luke 23:43 - the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise
Catechism of the CC
1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are "reborn of water and the Spirit." God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.
1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament
1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity -
This reasoning is quite "ad-hoc". It is precisely the kind of game you find during the early years of Christianity.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved." Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required.
John 3:3,5 - unless we are "born again" of water and Spirit in baptism, we cannot enter into the kingdom of God. The Greek word for the phrase "born again" is "anothen" which literally means “begotten from above.”
However this is mainly for Christians. In the catechism, there is somethning called baptism by desire.
Luke 23:43 - the good thief, although not baptized, shows that there is also a baptism by desire, as Jesus says to him that he will be in paradise
Is baptism by desire found in the bible?
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Whole verse - The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Mark 16:16 - Jesus said "He who believes AND is baptized will be saved." Jesus says believing is not enough. Baptism is also required.
Two comments:
1. Mark 16:16 belongs to the longer ending of Mark, meaning some manuscripts do not have it. Hence the authenticity is suspected.
2. The one who does not believe will be condemned. What happens to the one who believes but is not baptised?
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
2) Baptism by desire...like the thief.
Whole verse - [b]The one who believes and is baptized will be saved; but the one who does not believe will be condemned.
Two comments:
1. Mark 16:16 belongs to the longer ending of Mark, meaning some manuscripts do not have it. Hence the authenticity is suspected.
2. The one who does not believe will be condemned. What happens to the one who believes but is not baptised? [/b] -
baptism by desire is who say one?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:2) Baptism by desire...like the thief. -
Its from the Catechism of the Church.Originally posted by Icemoon:baptism by desire is who say one?
U wont find it in the Bible. -
1 Cor 4:6 - I have applied all this to Apollos and myself for your benefit, brothers and sisters,* so that you may learn through us the meaning of the saying, ‘Nothing beyond what is written’, so that none of you will be puffed up in favour of one against another.
Remember, nothing beyond what is written .. -
then pray, tell me, how do I emulate the Bereans?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Its from the Catechism of the Church.
U wont find it in the Bible.
Acts 17:11 - These Jews were more receptive than those in Thessalonica, for they welcomed the message very eagerly and examined the scriptures every day to see whether these things were so. -
1) It was mentioned implicitly in the thief on the crossOriginally posted by Icemoon:then pray, tell me, how do I emulate the Bereans?
Acts 17:11 - These Jews were more receptive than those in Thessalonica, for they welcomed the message very eagerly and examined the scriptures every day to see whether these things were so.
2) The verses do not say the Bereans searched the Scriptures alone (which is what u are attempting to prove when quoting this passage). Moreover, the Bereans accepted the oral teaching from Paul as God's word before searching the Scriptures, which disproves the Berean's use of sola Scriptura.
3) Which well brings us to Apostolic Traditions
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." 2 Thessalonians 2:15
4) U wont find Holy Trinity, Table of Content for the Inspired NT books, sola scriptura etc etc in bible as well...(onli implictly mentioned) -
1. mentioned implicitly? wow .. nice one. so many names to further your agenda - baptism by desire, mentioned implicitly. anymore?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:1) It was mentioned implicitly in the thief on the cross
2) The verses do not say the Bereans searched the Scriptures alone (which is what u are attempting to prove when quoting this passage). Moreover, the Bereans accepted the oral teaching from Paul as God's word before searching the Scriptures, which disproves the Berean's use of sola Scriptura.
3) Which well brings us to Apostolic Traditions
So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." 2 Thessalonians 2:15
4) U wont find Holy Trinity, Table of Content for the Inspired NT books, sola scriptura etc etc in bible as well...(onli implictly mentioned)
2. I never say they search the Scripture alone. I think you misunderstood the point about the Bereans. The point is - given any oral teaching, you should be able to find in Scripture. Paul did say somewhere to test the teachings. From our exchange these few days, I think you do not really understand what's Sola Scriptura.
3. You also don't understand what Paul meant by tradition.
4. that is the christian problem, not mine.