Who really founded the Catholic Church?
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But note Christ gave the gift of truth to the Apostles alone and to whomever that succeed their ministry.Originally posted by vince69:We are talking about the presence and role of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the believers in general.
Also, like you said, there are many gifts, teaching is one, administration, helps ....etc are also (btw, while the teacher can teach, a student can also study the Bible)
you are correct to say that not ALL are called to teach (I know I am not), nor all called to be Apostles, prophets, missionaries, pastors ...etc, but these gifts are given nevertheless to the church just like the Body is made up from different parts. All these gifts comes together to edify, to build up ...etc the church summing up to the 'head' which is Christ.
1 Corinthians 12 :4-6 (read the entire chapter for better understanding)
4There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord. 6There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.
And how then, if those who teach (ur pastor) differ from my Bishops...are they not supposed to be guided by the same Spirit? -
Actually the historical examples only go to show some groups did not study their bible carefully.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:My examples protrays that if vince arguments are true, why do we differ doctrinally. Nestoricans are as Christians as Protestants. Generally by Vince arguments, the Nestorians too would have came to the conclusion that Jesus was God and Man through the Spirit. While the Spirit guided the catholics into beleiving Christ was God with divine and human nature. How can the Spirit guide both people to 2 different conclusion. That was an example to illustrate how historical examples prove believers do not possese the gifts.
Remember the Apostle Paul constantly exhort the believers to test all truth, check the scripture etc. Even prophets (no matter how saintly or holy) has to be measured against Scripture.
Moreover, not anyone who cries 'Lord Lord' will have the Holy Spirit! So what makes you think that Nestorians have the Holy Spirit??
Note that to 'disprove' Nestorianism and other heresies, you don't even need the Holy Spirit. Just an honest reading of Scripture will do. -
Well Vince says EVERY believer has the Spirit.Originally posted by Icemoon:Actually the historical examples only go to show some groups did not study their bible carefully.
Remember the Apostle Paul constantly exhort the believers to test all truth, check the scripture etc. Even prophets (no matter how saintly or holy) has to be measured against Scripture.
Moreover, not anyone who cries 'Lord Lord' will have the Holy Spirit! So what makes you think that Nestorians have the Holy Spirit??
Note that to 'disprove' Nestorianism and other heresies, you don't even need the Holy Spirit. Just an honest reading of Scripture will do. -
Maybe the bishop or pastor still in a state of sin. so no holy spirit for them?Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:And how then, if those who teach (ur pastor) differ from my Bishops...are they not supposed to be guided by the same Spirit?
Paul already gave you the solution - test all truth.
How? You go and guess .. -
you know where this argument is going to end up, right? a debate on who is right and who is wrong, and my church better than yours type of argument.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:But note Christ gave the gift of truth to the Apostles alone and to whomever that succeed their ministry.
And how then, if those who teach (ur pastor) differ from my Bishops...are they not supposed to be guided by the same Spirit?
Here is where Sola Scriptura comes into play, Let Scripture alone decide who is right and who is wrong. -
I dunno exactly how the system works, but it is just not possible for the Spirit to be inside you every second, guiding you to the truth every second.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Well Vince says EVERY believer has the Spirit.
Even Popes are not infalliable, unless they declare ex-cathedra right?
In your opinion, is the Spirit among the cardinals or bishops who create the novelties in Vatican II? OBVIOUSLY NOT!! -
He is just bent on winning others that his Church is right, others are wrong.Originally posted by vince69:you know where this argument is going to end up, right? a debate on who is right and who is wrong, and my church better than yours type of argument.
He is always emphasizing on Peter and the papacy until I think they are overemphasized. (I have to praise Paul to show that all apostles are 'equal', not the case Paul is bishop and Peter is pope).
Is he returning the glory to Christ or Peter? Is not Christ the head of the Church? The Shepherd?
He is not like other Catholics - macross and honeybunny - at least they talk more about repentance and love. -
Exactly. There is no short cut - Paul already told us 2000 years ago.Originally posted by vince69:Here is where Sola Scriptura comes into play, Let Scripture alone decide who is right and who is wrong.
The believers are not told to believe blindly! They are told to verify what was said with Scripture!
No one is saying interpreting Scripture is a bed of rose. Which is why we have exegesis! Biblical hermeneutics! -
As I explained earlier, no infallibble techings was issued and so pope Paul VI said it wasnt an extraordinary councilOriginally posted by Icemoon:I dunno exactly how the system works, but it is just not possible for the Spirit to be inside you every second, guiding you to the truth every second.
Even Popes are not infalliable, unless they declare ex-cathedra right?
In your opinion, is the Spirit among the cardinals or bishops who create the novelties in Vatican II? OBVIOUSLY NOT!!
And protestants believe that all of them are infallible whenever they read Scripture....650 mil Super Popes ( at least a pope must be in ex-cathedra) -
Christ is the invisble head while Peter is the visible head ( remember the Isaiah 22:20-22 quote which we shoudl actualli be discussing).Originally posted by Icemoon:He is just bent on winning others that his Church is right, others are wrong.
He is always emphasizing on Peter and the papacy until I think they are overemphasized. (I have to praise Paul to show that all apostles are 'equal', not the case Paul is bishop and Peter is pope).
Is he returning the glory to Christ or Peter? Is not Christ the head of the Church? The Shepherd?
He is not like other Catholics - macross and honeybunny - at least they talk more about repentance and love.
Christ told Peter to feed his sheeps as well.....
Do they talk abt eucinemism as well? -
It seems like the Catholic Church is not clear on when it is infallible and when it is not.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:As I explained earlier, no infallibble techings was issued and so pope Paul VI said it wasnt an extraordinary council
And protestants believe that all of them are infallible whenever they read Scripture....650 mil Super Popes ( at least a pope must be in ex-cathedra)
The part in red is rubbish. -
Its possible, why not? the question is, even with the guidance of the Spirit, there is also the will of the human flesh at play, and many had deviated to the flesh (some simply not listening, others just wants it their way)Originally posted by Icemoon:I dunno exactly how the system works, but it is just not possible for the Spirit to be inside you every second, guiding you to the truth every second.
Even Popes are not infalliable, unless they declare ex-cathedra right?
In your opinion, is the Spirit among the cardinals or bishops who create the novelties in Vatican II? OBVIOUSLY NOT!!
Even the Apostle Paul have to struggle with his flesh, and he even describe our flesh as the body of death (so like this, Human, how can be infallible)
Roman 7:21-25
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Furthermore, Students make mistake does not equate Teacher not there to teach, it could also means Student not listening -
No....thats when My INTEPRETATION of SCripture vs YOUR INTEPRETATION of scripture comes into play.Originally posted by vince69:you know where this argument is going to end up, right? a debate on who is right and who is wrong, and my church better than yours type of argument.
Here is where Sola Scriptura comes into play, Let Scripture alone decide who is right and who is wrong.
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Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:
Pope means Papa in Italian which means FATHER - Biblical
Compare the two biblicl texts to understand the Papacy better.
"And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call [b]My servant Eliakim the son of Helcias, and I will clothe him with thy Robe, and I will strengthen him with thy Sash, and will give thy Power into his hand; and he shall be as a FATHER to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah. And I will lay the KEY of the House of David upon his shoulder; and he shall open and none shall shut; and he shall shut and none shall open. And I will fasten him as a peg in a Sure Place, and he shall be for a Throne of glory to the house of his Father. And they shall hang upon him all the glory of his Fathers house, diverse kinds of vessels, every little vessel, from the vessels of cups even to every instrument of music." Isaiah 22:20-24
"And I say to thee, thou art Peter, and upon this Rock I will build My Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give THEE the KEYS of the Kingdom of Heaven; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven." Matt 16:18-19
Notice similarites? This is just the very few times when KEYS are mentioned and the onli times when KEYS and the POwers of binding and loosing is mentioned.
So what do we have here? We have an OFFICE, a SASH, a ROBE, a THRONE, a KEY, a PEG, and a SURE PLACE.
The House of David is the Davidic Kingdom. David is a figure of Christ
The office mentioned in OT is like a prime minister role to rule Isreal when there is no King. Elikiam ruled Israel. Similiarly in NT, Christ institued a prime minister role for Peter by giving him the KEYS. The KEYS also represent dynastic Sucession as Elikiam succeeded Shebna in Isaiah 22:20. Similiarly this new Office Christ institued must have successors and they are our modern day popes. This was the case in the Old Covenant kingdom, and it is the case in the New Covenant kingdom which fulfills the Old Covenant. Christ our king is now in heaven is not wif us physically hence he gives us a prime minister to guide us. This is further strengthened when he ordered Peter to feed his flocks. In greek feed means to RULE. He also tells him to strenghten the fellow APOSTLES.
Eliakim is called “father” or “papa/pope” of God's people. This is why Catholics call the leader of the Church "Pope." The Pope is the father of God's people, the chief steward of the earthly kingdom and Christ's representative on earth.
Interesting bible verses:
"As an olive tree budding forth, and a cypress tree rearing itself on high, when he put on the ROBE of Glory, and was clothed with the perfection of POWER. When he went up to the Holy Altar, he honored the vesture of Holiness. And when he took the portions out of the hands of the priests, he himself stood by the Altar. And about him was the ring of his brethren: and as the cedar planted in mount Libanus, and as branches of palm trees, they stood round about him, and all the sons of Aaron in their glory. And the Oblation of the Lord (the Holy Eucharist) was in their hands before all the Congregation (Church) of Israel. And finishing his service on the Altar, to honor the offering of the Most High King, he stretched forth his hand to make a libation, and offered the Blood of the grape (wine transformed into the Blood of Christ)." Sir 50:11-16
"Now therefore we make thee this day High Priest (Vicar of Christ) of thy nation, and that thou be called the King's friend (and he sent them a Purple ROBE, and a CROWN OF GOLD (Miter)), and that thou be of one mind with us in our affairs, and keep friendship with us." 1Macc 10:20
The THRONE is the Chair (Seat) of Saint Peter from which the Vicar of Christ prolcaims to the whole world, infallilbe statements on faith and morals. Moses, the Leader of GOD's chosen people had a Seat of Authority.
"The Scribes and the Pharisees have sat on the Chair of Moses." Matt 23:2
"This Propitiatory (Mercy Seat) you shall then place on top of the Ark. In the Ark itself you are to put the Commandments which I will give you. There I will meet you and there, from above the Propitiatory, between the two cherubim on the Ark of the Commandments, I will tell you all of the commands that I wish you to give the Israelites (Ex-Cathedra)." Ex 25:20-22
The next day Moses sat in judgment for the people, who waited about him from morning until evening. When his father-in-law saw all that he was doing for the people, he inquired, "What sort of thing is this that you are doing for the people? Why do you sit alone while all the people have to stand about you from morning till evening?" Moses answered his father-in-law, "The people come to me to consult God. Whenever they have a disagreement, they come to me to have me settle the matter between them and make known to them God's decisions and regulations." (NT papal authority of supremacy) "You are not acting wisely," his father-in-law replied. "You will surely wear yourself out, and not only yourself but also these people with you. The task is too heavy for you; you cannot do it alone. Now, listen to me, and I will give you some advice, that God may be with you. Act as the people's representative before God, bringing to him whatever they have to say. Enlighten them in regard to the decisions and regulations, showing them how they are to live and what they are to do. But you should also look among all the people for able and God-fearing men, trustworthy men who hate dishonest gain, and set them as officers over groups of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens. Let these men render decisions for the people in all ordinary cases. More important cases they should refer to you, (PAPAL AUTHORITY. ROME HAS SPOKEN, THE ISSUE IS SETTLED) but all the lesser cases they can settle themselves. Thus, your burden will be lightened, since they will bear it with you. If you do this, when God gives you orders you will be able to stand the strain, and all these people will go home satisfied."
Moses followed the advice of his father-in-law and did all that he had suggested. He picked out able men from all Israel and put them in charge of the people as officers over groups of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens (CARDINALS, ARCHBISHOPS, AND BISHOPS, AS WE HAVE IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH TODAY). They rendered decisions for the people in all ordinary cases. The more difficult cases they referred to Moses, but all the lesser cases they settled themselves.
Exodus: 18:13-26
I hope this few verses can convince u in the biblical nature of the papacy. Rememebr every organization has the Power of Administration. If a Democracy has a Parliamemt, an elected President, if a company has a CEO, board of directors and stakeholders....what more of a 2000yr old institution wif a Magisteruim (filled with her Bishops) and the Papacy all filled in the Spirit of Truth? Is that wrong?[/b] -
commentaries, dictionaries, thesis,... etc and the most important of allOriginally posted by Icemoon:Exactly. There is no short cut - Paul already told us 2000 years ago.
The believers are not told to believe blindly! They are told to verify what was said with Scripture!
No one is saying interpreting Scripture is a bed of rose. Which is why we have exegesis! Biblical hermeneutics!
The Bible itself.
one more .... always pray for a humble and teachable heart with understandings. -
Then the point about Holy Spirit is moot.Originally posted by vince69:Its possible, why not? the question is, even with the guidance of the Spirit, there is also the will of the human flesh at play, and many had deviated to the flesh (some simply not listening, others just wants it their way)
Because a lot of time, even with the Holy Spirit, we are no different from without Holy Spirit.
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suan le bah .. you always use Church Tradition as the triumph card.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:No....thats when My INTEPRETATION of SCripture vs YOUR INTEPRETATION of scripture comes into play.
Historically Catholics are not good with exegesis, last time priests never take their bible study seriously.
only after the reformation then they started to get serious. cos scare liao. -
True... sad to admit, what you say here can be true also to some.Originally posted by Icemoon:Then the point about Holy Spirit is moot.
Because a lot of time, even with the Holy Spirit, we are no different from without Holy Spirit. -
Read the part in bold, "in addition to the teaching by which he is instructed how he ought to live) he receives the Holy Ghost"
according to St. Augustine, Believers received the Holy Ghost as a divine gift (not just the Apostles)Chapter 5 [III.]—True Grace is the Gift of the Holy Ghost, Which Kindles in the Soul the Joy and Love of Goodness
We, however, on our side affirm that the human will is so divinely aided in the pursuit of righteousness, that (in addition to man's being created with a free-will, and in addition to the teaching by which he is instructed how he ought to live) he receives the Holy Ghost, by whom there is formed in his mind a delight in, and a love of, that supreme and unchangeable good which is God, even now while he is still "walking by faith" and not yet "by sight;" 2 Corinthians 5:7 in order that by this gift to him of the earnest, as it were, of the free gift, he may conceive an ardent desire to cleave to his Maker, and may burn to enter upon the participation in that true light, that it may go well with him from Him to whom he owes his existence. A man's free-will, indeed, avails for nothing except to sin, if he knows not the way of truth; and even after his duty and his proper aim shall begin to become known to him, unless he also take delight in and feel a love for it, he neither does his duty, nor sets about it, nor lives rightly. Now, in order that such a course may engage our affections, God's" love is shed abroad in our hearts," not through the free-will which arises from ourselves, but "through the Holy Ghost, which is given to us." Romans 5:5
Home > Fathers of the Church > On the Spirit and the Letter (St. Augustine) -
CHAP. IV.--THE TRUTH IS TO BE FOUND NOWHERE ELSE BUT IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THE SOLE DEPOSITORY OF APOSTOLICAL DOCTRINE. HERESIES ARE OF RECENT FORMATION, AND CANNOT TRACE THEIR ORIGIN UP TO THE APOSTLES
St Irenaus -
The average catholic clergy sucked. But the best exegis and theologies come from the CC in the likes of Thomas Aquinas, Augustine etc etc.Originally posted by Icemoon:suan le bah .. you always use Church Tradition as the triumph card.
Historically Catholics are not good with exegesis, last time priests never take their bible study seriously.
only after the reformation then they started to get serious. cos scare liao. -
Actually the Protestants quite respect Augustine. Even Calvin owes part of his theology to Augustine but Protestants nowadays see Calvin but not Augustine.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:The average catholic clergy sucked. But the best exegis and theologies come from the CC in the likes of Thomas Aquinas, Augustine etc etc.
Thomas Aquinas might have some substance but he based his summa on the Latin bible, which is a regret. Protestants later went back to the source (herbew and greek). Last time I even debated with ben about the Summa. Haha .. too bad you weren't around.
This is not to say Catholics don't have commentators versed in the greek or hebrew. There are, just not very famous.
If you have the time, you should put down whatever hatred you have for Protestantism, clear your mind and prejudice, and start reading about the Protestant fathers.
Read about Luther and this Theology of the Cross. Read how Luther viewed salvation. Read why Luther thinks everything is a paradox.
Remember, the point is not to agree with Luther, but to appreicate what he is worth.
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you should quote why he thinks there are four and only four gospels too.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:CHAP. IV.--THE TRUTH IS TO BE FOUND NOWHERE ELSE BUT IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THE SOLE DEPOSITORY OF APOSTOLICAL DOCTRINE. HERESIES ARE OF RECENT FORMATION, AND CANNOT TRACE THEIR ORIGIN UP TO THE APOSTLES
St Irenaus
Go on. -
Those are the inspired scriptures. He chose 4 cos they are 4 corners int eh world but they are the onli 4 INSPIRED scriptures.Originally posted by Icemoon:you should quote why he thinks there are four and only four gospels too.
Go on. -
and the scripture support for this? I am sure its not pluck out of the air.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:CHAP. IV.--THE TRUTH IS TO BE FOUND NOWHERE ELSE BUT IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THE SOLE DEPOSITORY OF APOSTOLICAL DOCTRINE. HERESIES ARE OF RECENT FORMATION, AND CANNOT TRACE THEIR ORIGIN UP TO THE APOSTLES
St Irenaus
and I am very sure St Irenaus don't scream these words out but rather speak them out with dignity.