speaking in tongues
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and it is a joke that he is your debating partner.Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Beats my friend who believe in yoou cant speak in tongues u are not baptised and hence will not be saved. Many wierd doctrines....a weekly debate during the weekends during the holidays.
don't waste your time talking to him. talk to intelligent people. -
Not form my school haha. LOL my school i would use my captainship power and anathema him.Originally posted by Icemoon:and it is a joke that he is your debating partner.
don't waste your time talking to him. talk to intelligent people.
I classify him as protestant fundenmatilist who knows little abt christianity except anti-catholic rhethorics. -
Hi Nicholas,Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:I do agree with u. The heart is extremely important. But these 'extras' to different people is also important. I am sorry for my outburst earlier. But as a Catholic, a priest is extremely important for 2 reasons
1) He (representing the church) alone can forgive sins
2) Without him, who can conduct Mass to turn the bread to flesh and offer it up to the Father.
As for tongues, i do know it ceased.
St Augustine wrote that the gift of tongues had ceased by the time of his day. Augustine explained that this was because the Catholic Church now spoke the language of the nations, and tongue-speaking was only for purposes of evangelization (Aquinas agreed)
Aquinas and Augustine are greatest theoligcans.
Can you please elaborate what you understand by "language of the nations" ?
Oh by the way, God alone can forgive sins. -
Hi Klydeer,Originally posted by klydeer:Hi Nicholas,
Can you please elaborate what you understand by "language of the nations" ?
Oh by the way, God alone can forgive sins.
1) The Church has spread to all nations by then and can speak the language of every race. There is no need of the gift of tongue hence it ceased as Paul says “as for tongues, they will cease” (1 Cor. 13:
.
2) That is wrong considering u are a follower of Sola Scriptura. Explain to me this verse then,
"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.'" John 20:22-23
- Before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, "as the Father sent me, so I send you." As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apsotles and their suceessors forgive sins.
- God breathed on them and we only saw this in Genesis when God breathed life into Man. A transformation had taken place.
- the powers of forgiving and retaining sins is given to the Apostles
- through apostolic succession, their successors are given this gift through the laying of hands
- in Mat 18:18 we know the Church built on Peter possese the powers to forgive sins.
And lastly in Mat 9:8 we know man has the power to forgive sins. -
__________Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Hi Klydeer,
1) The Church has spread to all nations by then and can speak the language of every race. There is no need of the gift of tongue hence it ceased as Paul says “as for tongues, they will cease” (1 Cor. 13:.
2) That is wrong considering u are a follower of Sola Scriptura. Explain to me this verse then,
"And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, 'Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.'" John 20:22-23
- Before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, "as the Father sent me, so I send you." As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apsotles and their suceessors forgive sins.
- God breathed on them and we only saw this in Genesis when God breathed life into Man. A transformation had taken place.
- the powers of forgiving and retaining sins is given to the Apostles
- through apostolic succession, their successors are given this gift through the laying of hands
- in Mat 18:18 we know the Church built on Peter possese the powers to forgive sins.
And lastly in Mat 9:8 we know man has the power to forgive sins.
1 Cor 13:8 reads (NIV)
"Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away."
Paul is not saying, that tongues or prophecies will cease at a time in the future from where his era was, but he means that tongues, propehecies, knowledge are not eternal and that they should be proclaimed / used with Love. Without Love, what is the use of speaking in tongues and prophecies ? Similarly, a person can be knowledgeable in biblical theology. But without having a loving / pastoral heart, whats the use of that knowledge? To tell men that you are intelligent?
Let us go on to verses 9 - 13
"For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known." 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Seriously, i dont think Paul is half as interested to tell us here, that tongues will cease as teaching us, the two greatest commandments that Jesus Himself has said in Matthew 22: 36 - 40
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
Again, in John 20, i tend to agree more with Matthew Henry's commentaries, that when Jesus breathed into the disciples, it signifies that the Great Commission can only be carried out through the Holy Spirit and not by their own strength. More so, i quote: "the Christ which is received in the heart by faith, comes accompanied by this Divine breathing; and without this there is neither light nor life. Nothing is seen, known, discerned, or felt of God, but through this. After this, Christ directed the apostles to declare the only method by which sin would be forgiven. This power did not exist at all in the apostles as a power to give judgment, but only as a power to declare the character of those whom God would accept or reject in the day of judgment. They have clearly laid down the marks whereby a child of God may be discerned and be distinguished from a false professor; and according to what they have declared shall every case be decided in the day of judgment. When we assemble in Christ's name, especially on his holy day, he will meet with us, and speak peace to us. The disciples of Christ should endeavour to build up one another in their most holy faith, both by repeating what they have heard to those that were absent, and by making known what they have experienced." - Biblegateway, Matthew Henry's concise commentary on the Bible.
If some men can or should be forgiving the sins of others, why then does our Lord says in Hebrews 9:28:
28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
And:
1 John 2: 1-6
1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world. 3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love[b] is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did. -
Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:I do agree with u. The heart is extremely important. But these 'extras' to different people is also important. I am sorry for my outburst earlier. But as a Catholic, a priest is extremely important for 2 reasons
1) He (representing the church) alone can forgive sins
2) Without him, who can conduct Mass to turn the bread to flesh and offer it up to the Father.
As for tongues, i do know it ceased.
St Augustine wrote that the gift of tongues had ceased by the time of his day. Augustine explained that this was because the Catholic Church now spoke the language of the nations, and tongue-speaking was only for purposes of evangelization (Aquinas agreed)
Aquinas and Augustine are greatest theoligcans.
My dear Pope,Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Hi Klydeer,
1) The Church has spread to all nations by then and can speak the language of every race. There is no need of the gift of tongue hence it ceased as Paul says “as for tongues, they will cease” (1 Cor. 13:.
is it my understanding in what you had written here,
1) St Augustine wrote that the gift of tongues had ceased by the time of his day. Augustine explained that this was because the Catholic Church now spoke the language of the nations, and tongue-speaking was only for purposes of evangelization
2) and the from your second post, you said that what he meant on the Catholic Church now spoke the language of the nations is that the Church has spread to all nations by then and can speak the language of every race
Allow me to present to you some history that shows that your second statement cannot be right, as at the time when St Augustine wrote this regarding the gift of tongues, the Catholic had not yet spread to all nations nor able to speak the language of every race.
Augustine of Hippo (354-430 AD)
Europeans founded America in 1492
the Italian Jesuit Matteo Ricci (1552-1610) in Beijing in 1601The first sustained personal and intellectual linkages between the great civilizations of China and the West originated in the efforts of Catholic missionaries in the early 1600s to create a synthesis between the teachings of Confucius and Jesus that might, someday, ease ChinaÂ’s acceptance of Roman Catholicism. The beginning of this great project is customarily marked by the arrival of the Italian Jesuit Matteo Ricci (1552-1610) in Beijing in 1601, though the indefatigable Ricci had come to south China in 1583 and was able to present himself at the Imperial court only after eighteen years of trying.
Just simply based on these two, we can see, at the time of St Augustine, the Catholic had not yet spread to all nations nor able to speak the language of every race.
http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9708/articles/horner.html
Therefore, I can safely assumed that this nations in the 'the language of the nations' are only refering to the known civilised world (ie. either part of the Roman Empire or perhaps have some relations with the Roman Empire).
Question: given that St Augustine made this statement in view that tongue-speaking was only for purposes of evangelization and is no longer needed because the Church is able to speak the language of all races.....
IF St Augustine had know that in fact the Church is not able to speak the language of all races yet, Do you think he will still make this statement?
*added, try putting yourself in his shoe, at his time and moment. -
On Henry commentary I disagree. Why do u look at 20th century exegetes of John 20. Lets see how the early Christians especially in the first century explained it.Originally posted by klydeer:Again, in John 20, i tend to agree more with Matthew Henry's commentaries, that when Jesus breathed into the disciples, it signifies that the Great Commission can only be carried out through the Holy Spirit and not by their own strength. More so, i quote: "the Christ which is received in the heart by faith, comes accompanied by this Divine breathing; and without this there is neither light nor life. Nothing is seen, known, discerned, or felt of God, but through this. After this, Christ directed the apostles to declare the only method by which sin would be forgiven. This power did not exist at all in the apostles as a power to give judgment, but only as a power to declare the character of those whom God would accept or reject in the day of judgment. They have clearly laid down the marks whereby a child of God may be discerned and be distinguished from a false professor; and according to what they have declared shall every case be decided in the day of judgment. When we assemble in Christ's name, especially on his holy day, he will meet with us, and speak peace to us. The disciples of Christ should endeavour to build up one another in their most holy faith, both by repeating what they have heard to those that were absent, and by making known what they have experienced." - Biblegateway, Matthew Henry's concise commentary on the Bible.
If some men can or should be forgiving the sins of others, why then does our Lord says in Hebrews 9:28:
28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
And:
1 John 2: 1-6
1My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for[a] the sins of the whole world. 3We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands. 4The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But if anyone obeys his word, God's love[b] is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: 6Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
“In church confess your sins, and do not come to your prayer with a guilt conscience. Such is the Way of Life...On the Lord's own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure." Didache, 4:14,14:1 (c. A.D. 90).
"Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness[of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop." Ignatius, Epistle to the Smyraeans, 9 (c. A.D. 110).
"Moreover, that this Marcus compounds philters and love-potions, in order to insult the persons of some of these women, if not of all, those of them who have returned to the Church of God--a thing which frequently occurs--have acknowledged, confessing, too, that they have been defiled by him, and that they were filled with a burning passion towards him. A sad example of this occurred in the case of a certain Asiatic, one of our deacons, who had received him (Marcus) into his house. His wife, a woman of remarkable beauty, fell a victim both in mind and body to this magician, and, for a long time, travelled about with him. At last, when, with no small difficulty, the brethren had converted her, she spent her whole time in the exercise of public confession, weeping over and lamenting the defilement which she had received from this magician." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:13 (A.D. 180).
"Such are the words and deeds by which, in our own district of the Rhone, they have deluded many women, who have their consciences seared as with a hot iron. Some of them, indeed, make a public confession of their sins; but others of them are ashamed to do this, and in a tacit kind of way, despairing of [attaining to] the life of God, have, some of them, apostatized altogether; while others hesitate between the two courses, and incur that which is implied in the proverb, 'neither without nor within;' possessing this as the fruit from the seed of the children of knowledge." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:13 (A.D. 180).
"Father who knowest the hearts of all grant upon this Thy servant whom Thou hast chosen for the episcopate to feed Thy holy flock and serve as Thine high priest, that he may minister blamelessly by night and day, that he may unceasingly behold and appropriate Thy countenance and offer to Thee the gifts of Thy holy Church. And that by the high priestly Spirit he may have authority to forgive sins..." Hippolytus, Apostolic Tradition, 3 (A.D. 215).
"The Pontifex Maximus--that is, the bishop of bishops--issues an edict: 'I remit, to such as have discharged (the requirements of) repentance, the sins both of adultery and of fornication.'" Tertullian, Modesty, 1 (A.D. 220).
"In addition to these there is also a seventh, albeit hard and laborious: the remission of sins through penance...when he does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord." Origen, Homilies on Leviticus, 2:4 (A.D. 24.
"For although in smaller sins sinners may do penance for a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of communion: now with their time still unfulfilled, while persecution is still raging, while the peace of the Church itself is not vet restored, they are admitted to communion, and their name is presented; and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands Of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the eucharist is given to them; although it is written, 'Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.'" Cyprian, To the Clergy, 9 (16):2 (A.D. 250).
"Moreover, how much are they both greater in faith and better in their fear, who, although bound by no crime of sacrifice to idols or of certificate, yet, since they have even thought of such things, with grief and simplicity confess this very thing to God's priests, and make the conscientious avowal, put off from them the load of their minds, and seek out the salutary medicine even for slight and moderate wounds, knowing that it is written, 'God is not mocked.' God cannot be mocked, nor deceived, nor deluded by any deceptive cunning. Yea, he sins the more, who, thinking that God is like man, believes that he evades the penalty of his crime if he has not openly admitted his crimeÂ…I entreat you, beloved brethren, that each one should confess his own sin, while he who has sinned is still in this world, while his confession may be received, while the satisfaction and remission made by the priests are pleasing to the Lord?" Cyprian, To the Lapsed, 28-29 (A.D. 251).
"For if any one will consider how great a thing it is for one, being a man, and compassed with flesh and blood, to be enabled to draw nigh to that blessed and pure nature, he will then clearly see what great honor the grace of the Spirit has vouchsafed to priests; since by their agency these rites are celebrated, and others nowise inferior to these both in respect of our dignity and our salvation. For they who inhabit the earth and make their abode there are entrusted with the administration of things which are in Heaven, and have received an authority which God has not given to angels or archangels. For it has not been said to them, 'Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.' They who rule on earth have indeed authority to bind, but only the body: whereas this binding lays hold of the soul and penetrates the heavens; and what priests do here below God ratifies above, and the Master confirms the sentence of his servants. For indeed what is it but all manner of heavenly authority which He has given them when He says, 'Whose sins ye remit they are remitted, and whose sins ye retain they are retained?' What authority could be greater than this? 'The Father hath committed all judgment to the Son?' But I see it all put into the hands of these men by the Son." John Chrysostom, The Priesthood, 3:5 (A.D. 387).
So u can clearly see, the early Christians intepretated Scripture the Catholic way. Im afriad Henry exegis of Scripture is hardly historical.
On the Biblical issue, he is moving in circles attempting to confuse his reader with Christ sacrifice on calvary and the Church ability to forgive sins. Christ gave the Apostles the power to 'forgive and retain sins'. How do u intepretate that?
First, we see that Jesus breathes on His apostles in the upper room. The only other time God breathted on man was when He created him and breathed life into his body. Genesis 2:7. When God breathes on man, a transformatoin takes place. Here, the apostles were transformed and filled with the Holy Spirit and with Jesus' divien authority to forgive sins. Thus,Mathtew writes that God gave the authuority to forgive sins “to men.” Matt. 9:8. By virtue of God's mercy, the apostles are able to forgive all sins.
While such authority is reserved to God alone, Christ shared this authority with the apostles.
I cant see any way out of this intepretation. -
Dear Vince,Originally posted by vince69:Just simply based on these two, we can see, at the time of St Augustine, the Catholic had not yet spread to all nations nor able to speak the language of every race.
Therefore, I can safely assumed that this nations in the 'the language of the nations' are only refering to the known civilised world (ie. either part of the Roman Empire or perhaps have some relations with the Roman Empire).
Question: given that St Augustine made this statement in view that tongue-speaking was only for purposes of evangelization and is no longer needed because the Church is able to speak the language of all races.....
IF St Augustine had know that in fact the Church is not able to speak the language of all races yet, Do you think he will still make this statement?
*added, try putting yourself in his shoe, at his time and moment.
U missed out St Thomas Aquinas of the 1200s.
The major hole in your argument is that China and rest of the unknown world were not evangelised by tongues but instead with venucular languages and at times by force. If tongues were used, then I agree, it was still needed to evangelise but they were evangelise without supernatural gifts. This proves Aquinas and Augustine's arguments that tongues were no longer needed as we speak the languages of all the nations.
Paul warns us that the gift of tongue-speaking may not be of God. Where you have a huge assembly speaking in tongues, we can be assured that it is not. It is simply emotionalism. The tongue-speaking in the Bible generally referred to speaking in other languages, which was necessary so that the infant Church could spread the gospel to all nations. Few saints did possese it and they were of the holiest calibre.
Lastly, tongues were not even mentioned in other NT books which may show that tongues had already ceased.
How do explain the sudden large scale appearance of Tongues in this century??? -
Pope,Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Dear Vince,
U missed out St Thomas Aquinas of the 1200s.
The major hole in your argument is that China and rest of the unknown world were not evangelised by tongues but instead with venucular languages and at times by force. If tongues were used, then I agree, it was still needed to evangelise but they were evangelise without supernatural gifts. This proves Aquinas and Augustine's arguments that tongues were no longer needed as we speak the languages of all the nations.
Paul warns us that the gift of tongue-speaking may not be of God. Where you have a huge assembly speaking in tongues, we can be assured that it is not. It is simply emotionalism. The tongue-speaking in the Bible generally referred to speaking in other languages, which was necessary so that the infant Church could spread the gospel to all nations. Few saints did possese it and they were of the holiest calibre.
Lastly, tongues were not even mentioned in other NT books which may show that tongues had already ceased.
How do explain the sudden large scale appearance of Tongues in this century???
you missed my point,
even if St Thomas Aquinas of the 1200s.
these event, had not happen yet.
Europeans founded America in 1492
the Italian Jesuit Matteo Ricci (1552-1610) in Beijing in 1601
meaning, the statement that the church speaks the language of the world, of all races is incorrect when it was made, be it by St Augustine or St Thomas Aquinas, when they make this statement, it is from current knowledge, incorrect (of course, during that time, these unknown nations are not known yet, so relatively, to them its correct).
if a doctrine is based on this statement, and based on current knowledge was shown incorrect, then we can put in this benefit of doubts.
That had they know about these nations, and know that the church at that time do not speak their languages, will they have made this statement, knowing the basis that was used was incorrect.
I would believe that man of their integrity would not have made such statement had they know that it is based on incorrect information.
From a personal view
There are a few ways to use tongues, as a gift, one is in the times where one had reach a point of despair and grief that he ran out of words (I know how this is like, cause I had been to through this).
To say that Tongue ceased because we don't want to use it, its not the right way, cause even Faith and Hope will cease, does it means we stop believing and hopeing? who is to decide when a gift cease? actually, all gifts will cease, only love will remains.
The gliss of what Paul was saying about practicing these gifts is that it must be done out of love and during worship, done in an orderly manner.
- For the record, personally though I also practice speaking in tongues, to me its just a gift, a tool that was given, its not essential to our salvation, meaning, can use, can don't use, Just practice with some self control. -
Haha well u are right on it being a tool etc etc. I agree with you. Im judging u are a Pentecostal.Originally posted by vince69:Pope,
you missed my point,
even if St Thomas Aquinas of the 1200s.
these event, had not happen yet.
Europeans founded America in 1492
the Italian Jesuit Matteo Ricci (1552-1610) in Beijing in 1601
meaning, the statement that the church speaks the language of the world, of all races is incorrect when it was made, be it by St Augustine or St Thomas Aquinas, when they make this statement, it is from current knowledge, incorrect (of course, during that time, these unknown nations are not known yet, so relatively, to them its correct).
if a doctrine is based on this statement, and based on current knowledge was shown incorrect, then we can put in this benefit of doubts.
That had they know about these nations, and know that the church at that time do not speak their languages, will they have made this statement, knowing the basis that was used was incorrect.
I would believe that man of their integrity would not have made such statement had they know that it is based on incorrect information.
From a personal view
There are a few ways to use tongues, as a gift, one is in the times where one had reach a point of despair and grief that he ran out of words (I know how this is like, cause I had been to through this).
To say that Tongue ceased because we don't want to use it, its not the right way, cause even Faith and Hope will cease, does it means we stop believing and hopeing? who is to decide when a gift cease? actually, all gifts will cease, only love will remains.
The gliss of what Paul was saying about practicing these gifts is that it must be done out of love and during worship, done in an orderly manner.
- For the record, personally though I also practice speaking in tongues, to me its just a gift, a tool that was given, its not essential to our salvation, meaning, can use, can don't use, Just practice with some self control.
I am merely saying after biblical times there was no usage of tongues for mainstream evangelisation. Why? Because the Church is able to do it in venucular languages.
Thomas Aquinas:
Reply to Objection 3: Christ in His own person purposed preaching to only one nation, namely the Jews. Consequently, although without any doubt He possessed most perfectly the knowledge of all languages, there was no need for Him to speak in every tongue. And therefore, as Augustine says (Tract. xxxii in Joan.), "whereas even now the Holy Ghost is received, yet no one speaks in the tongues of all nations, because the Church herself already speaks the languages of all nations: since whoever is not in the Church, receives not the Holy Ghost."
While I hold that a small grp of people can truly use tongues, majority of the large scale congregationalist style of using tongues are products of unintentional emotionalism as scripture says at most 2-3 and someone must be able to intepretate.
Vince, can u perhaps explain to me is ur view of large scale congregationalist tongue speaking or a small grp of people who are truly gifted haha???
I hold the latter and point to the few Saints that possesed it.
Take Care!!! -
Tongues won't cease lah.
These words can be found in your bible (in red somemore):Mark 16:17 - And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well."
-
Friend,Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:Vince, can u perhaps explain to me is ur view of large scale congregationalist tongue speaking or a small grp of people who are truly gifted haha???
let me attempt to answer your question to the best of my experience.
On large scale congregationalist tongue speaking
There are 2 very obvious character to watch out for
1) Orderly - is there order or is it just plain chaos
2) Control - is there self control practiced or is everything and everyone out of control
The excerise of the gifts of the Holy Spirit must always display the fruits of the Holy Spirit.
On a small grp of people who are truly gifted?
actually the gift is for all, the real question is on the small grp of people who choose to use these gifts? (Note: different people may choose to use different gift when in different situation).
cheers -
If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.1 Cor. 13:8Originally posted by Icemoon:Tongues won't cease lah.
These words can be found in your bible (in red somemore):Paul says “as for tongues, they will cease” (1 Cor. 13:
But out of curiosity, whats the use of speaking in tongues if u are not evagelising anyone?. The Greek word for “cease” (pauomai) means that the gift of tongues will end abruptly, on its own, and will not be replaced by another gift. The gift of tongues is the only gift of the Holy Spirit that is said to “cease” in this way. When Paul says that prophecies and knowledge will “pass away” (1 Cor. 13:, the phrase “pass away” (in Greek, katargeo) indicates that these gifts will be replaced by a superior power. This appears to take place when we begin our life in eternity (1 Cor. 13:10-12). Not so with tongues -
Mr Pope.
Now it is Jesus' words against Paul's words.
Take your pick. -
Or u can choose to follow Augustine and Aquinas intepretation that Jesus created the gift on tongues but was only temporarily. Mind u there is no other mention of tongues in the other NT books or Paul letters and even in the Church fathers documents for the first century.Originally posted by Icemoon:Mr Pope.
Now it is Jesus' words against Paul's words.
Take your pick. -
your use of this verseOriginally posted by Pope Nicholas:But out of curiosity, whats the use of speaking in tongues if u are not evagelising anyone?
If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.1 Cor. 13:8
To show that tongue will cease, also means prophecy will be brought to nothing, and so will knowledge ... does this means we no longer need knowledge also, since it will be brought to nothing?
see, you can't just pick a part of a verse and ignore the rest.
speaking in tongue can also be use for edification of the body, just like the gifts are given for the edification of the body and for building it up for righteousness. -
But tongues are abused badly with warped theories of it being used today.Originally posted by vince69:your use of this verse
If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.1 Cor. 13:8
To show that tongue will cease, also means prophecy will be brought to nothing, and so will knowledge ... does this means we no longer need knowledge also, since it will be brought to nothing?
see, you can't just pick a part of a verse and ignore the rest.
speaking in tongue can also be use for edification of the body, just like the gifts are given for the edification of the body and for building it up for righteousness. -
abused? yes, of course there are serveral cases of abuse of this gift.Originally posted by MS:But tongues are abused badly with warped theories of it being used today.
(I almost want to say its widely abused)
But then can we say, because its was abused, it should cease?
To be honest, there are really many things that are abused, personally, after being through many churches across denominations, both locally and abroad, I had seen abuses in almost every aspect of church life, from prayers to worship, and even from the pulpit.
these should not prevent us from going to church and minister to others.
just like even though there are cases of abuse of this gift, should not stop us from using it wisely and properly. -
Precisely. Cease or not cease about tongues is not what we can say. Because there're too many disputing points.Originally posted by vince69:abused? yes, of course there are serveral cases of abuse of this gift.
(I almost want to say its widely abused)
But then can we say, because its was abused, it should cease?
To be honest, there are really many things that are abused, personally, after being through many churches across denominations, both locally and abroad, I had seen abuses in almost every aspect of church life, from prayers to worship, and even from the pulpit.
these should not prevent us from going to church and minister to others.
just like even though there are cases of abuse of this gift, should not stop us from using it wisely and properly.
The abuse of tongues, offerings widely thought by many in Singapore as main stream 'correct' Christian pattern should be the real one that should cease.
Come fellow believers of Jesus, let's put an end to this argument. From what you all posted look like believers of Jesus going after each others throat eager to put the other down.
Why not leave this to God to decide. There will be endless arguments which I find worthless to building your relationship with God. It's more like the Pharisees arguing over theoretical facts while you all neglect the core of all follower of Jesus and that's Love for one another? Even non christians? -
To be simple tongues is just a God given spiritual gifting... There is however no need to debate about since there is doubt.. I do can to a point that there might be christians who don't believe in it.. but whatever it is , just know that Jesus will judge during the judgment day.. All we need to do it to fulfill the Great commission in Matthew 28:19. I do believe some Christian are given some sort of spiritual to assist in the fulfill of the commission.. Example Rev Benny Hinn in US is gifted in healing and each time his conduct a healing service, the Holy Spirit manifest and heal that who put there entire faith on Jesus
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Benny Hinn is dubious. I wouldn't dare to say he is 'gifted'.Originally posted by soulwinner:I do believe some Christian are given some sort of spiritual to assist in the fulfill of the commission.. Example Rev Benny Hinn in US is gifted in healing and each time his conduct a healing service, the Holy Spirit manifest and heal that who put there entire faith on Jesus
There are videos exposing his acts. -
A better study on 'spiritual gifts' are Smith Wigglesworth and Kathryn Kuhlman.Originally posted by Icemoon:Benny Hinn is dubious. I wouldn't dare to say he is 'gifted'.
There are videos exposing his acts.
Smith Wigglesworth and many classical protestant writers only mentioned
'Spiritual Utterances'. Are they tongues? I don't know, maybe? Maybe not.
And on tongues in 1900s is Azusa Street Revival - William J Seymour
'Seymour preached that speaking in tongues was evidence of Holy Spirit baptism' - extract from wiki.
Leave Hinn aside. It's hopeless to discuss that. -
for self edification, when you are praying alone... 1 Cor 14:4Originally posted by Pope Nicholas:But out of curiosity, whats the use of speaking in tongues if u are not evagelising anyone?
to build up our faith Jude 1:20
as a sign to unbelievers... 1 Cor 14:22
Shaul also says in 1 Cor 14:39 not to forbid speaking in tongues...
1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
1 Corinthians 12:29-31 (New King James Version)
29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way.
Please also note Acts 2:4
And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
we speak in tongues as the Rauch Hakkodesh gives us utterance... -
i notice the threadstarter has dissappeared. I doubt he is even following the discussion in the first place. Still, nice to see a good discussion carrying on.
Don't mind me, carry on. Having fun reading what's been posted. -
don't just read for fun, post some contribution as well....Originally posted by SumOne:i notice the threadstarter has dissappeared. I doubt he is even following the discussion in the first place. Still, nice to see a good discussion carrying on.
Don't mind me, carry on. Having fun reading what's been posted.
yes, its fun to have nice & peaceful discussion once in a while