Sufferings

• ben1xy

  1 Sep 06, 18:53

  Originally posted by davidche:

  yup. A very polite kind of rebutting. good!!

  i am not rebutting lah ...
  
  i am asking a question
• davidche

  1 Sep 06, 18:56

  ok loh, but my way of rebutting is:
  
  Chin Eng, you r wrong!!
• stupidissmart

  1 Sep 06, 21:32

  but even if cold is due to the absence of heat, heat must exist to let there bcome a absence.
  
  Same for suffering and non suffering.

  U r still talking rubbish here. Suffering exists simply and tat cause suffering. Tat is it. Without suffering, everybody is in a non-suffering state and tat is wat we want. Same as heat, everything exists because there is heat. Without heat, there wouldn't be something such as cold. There is no sunstance tat is"cold", same as no substance such as "non-suffering". But nevertheless tat is it. Debating with u is really pointless because u lack the intellectual for it
• davidche

  1 Sep 06, 22:33

  yes, you wld live in a non-suffering state but do you know your not suffering? No you dont, cos its simply a normalty. Do you know that you shld be happy since your not suffering? no you dont.
  
  There r alot of life principals tat i hv found supporting this idea but my thoughts r faster than my typing so i am unable to express it out.
  
  i fine example wld be, when you see the old or spastic ppl or children from certain societies I feel sad for them. But on the other hand, i felt satisfied with what i have in life(man3 zu2) and happy. When i saw what is suffering, i can refer back to my non-suffering state. And this is what moves me on(literally).
  
  I do not know how it feels like to be those ppl so i cant say for them.Sometimes, when you see ppl hu cant walk, you thank God that you hv a pair of walking legs.
  
  If one doesnt suffer anything, he will never grow spiritually.
  No, i shldnt say this.
  Shld be: If one suffers abit, one wld surely grow spiritually.
• Chin Eng

  2 Sep 06, 09:41

  Originally posted by ben1xy:

  a question then. Who created suffering? suffering cannot come into existence without being created. is there a force that is equal to that of God?

  Philosophically? Not everything is created (as in made directly), some things exist because of the lack of another. Darkness is merely the absence of light. Light exist, darkness does not. One can turn on a torch light and there is light, the opposite cannot exist - one holding up something that transmit darkness....
  If one believes in the Bible, suffering did not exist in the beginning. Suffering happens because of the consequences of the actions of Adam and Eve. Therefore suffering is a direct result of what Adam and Eve did. It is not a creation from God, per se.
  It's like this in my home, I tell my sons (since young) not to jump on the sofa or the bed or else you fall down and injure yourself. If they do that, and injure themself, it is not dad that brought suffering to them. Likewise, if they sustain an injury that will give a chain reaction to their offspring, it is also not my fault.
  
  So then what is suffering? Suffering is a have-not state of mind. What is suffering to one may not be suffering to another.
  
  

  Originally posted by davidche:

  ok loh, but my way of rebutting is:
  
  Chin Eng, you r wrong!!

  Here's where I say you need to be more mature in your writing....
  
  Why am I wrong? Otherwise it is going to be one of those wu-liao post again.
• stupidissmart

  2 Sep 06, 09:46

  yes, you wld live in a non-suffering state but do you know your not suffering? No you dont, cos its simply a normalty. Do you know that you shld be happy since your not suffering? no you dont.

  Isn't tat ideal ? Why will anyone wanna inflict suffering on themselves ?
  
  

  There r alot of life principals tat i hv found supporting this idea but my thoughts r faster than my typing so i am unable to express it out.

  Or there is nothing u wanna express out ?
  
  

  i fine example wld be, when you see the old or spastic ppl or children from certain societies I feel sad for them. But on the other hand, i felt satisfied with what i have in life(man3 zu2) and happy. When i saw what is suffering, i can refer back to my non-suffering state. And this is what moves me on(literally).

  I think u r sadistic. I felt sad for them but I do not go and become damn proud of myself for being normal. I wish they do not suffer and lead normal lives, but u instead think they deserve to suffer so u can feel good for yourself
  
  

  I do not know how it feels like to be those ppl so i cant say for them.Sometimes, when you see ppl hu cant walk, you thank God that you hv a pair of walking legs.
  
  If one doesnt suffer anything, he will never grow spiritually.
  No, i shldnt say this.
  Shld be: If one suffers abit, one wld surely grow spiritually.

  Yup, u just reinforce your sadistic nature. If u so wanna grow spiritually, why don't u inflict pain or cut off your legs yourself ? U would surely grow spiritually isn't it ?
• stupidissmart

  2 Sep 06, 09:49

  It's like this in my home, I tell my sons (since young) not to jump on the sofa or the bed or else you fall down and injure yourself. If they do that, and injure themself, it is not dad that brought suffering to them. Likewise, if they sustain an injury that will give a chain reaction to their offspring, it is also not my fault.

  I think u need to take into considerations tat "injury" is already created then. In the case of "suffering", it is like your children disobey u and eat a fruit, then u make them injured and make them suffer. Secondly, the suffering they experienced is directly implemented by god, not indirectly from your example.
  
• davidche

  2 Sep 06, 09:55

  Philosophically? Not everything is created (as in made directly), some things exist because of the lack of another. Darkness is merely the absence of light. Light exist, darkness does not. One can turn on a torch light and there is light, the opposite cannot exist - one holding up something that transmit darkness....
  If one believes in the Bible, suffering did not exist in the beginning. Suffering happens because of the consequences of the actions of Adam and Eve. Therefore suffering is a direct result of what Adam and Eve did. It is not a creation from God, per se.
  It's like this in my home, I tell my sons (since young) not to jump on the sofa or the bed or else you fall down and injure yourself. If they do that, and injure themself, it is not dad that brought suffering to them. Likewise, if they sustain an injury that will give a chain reaction to their offspring, it is also not my fault.
  
  So then what is suffering? Suffering is a have-not state of mind. What is suffering to one may not be suffering to another.

  sounds logical, but think about it.....if suffering doesnt exist in the first place, there wldnt be the consequence that you say is the action of adam and eve.
  In other words, when adam and eve sins, the suffering must be created for that to happen as a consequence.
  
  Now thats my first question.
  
  Secondly, if suffering is the consequence of adam and eve,which it is, God must have allowed suffering to be the consequence, thus God has allowed suffering?
  
  
• stupidissmart

  2 Sep 06, 10:01

  From genesis 3
  
  
  14 So the LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this,
  "Cursed are you above all the livestock
  and all the wild animals!
  You will crawl on your belly
  and you will eat dust
  all the days of your life.
  
  15 And I will put enmity
  between you and the woman,
  and between your offspring [a] and hers;
  he will crush [b] your head,
  and you will strike his heel."
  
  16 To the woman he said,
  "I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
  with pain you will give birth to children.
  Your desire will be for your husband,
  and he will rule over you."
  
  17 To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,'
  "Cursed is the ground because of you;
  through painful toil you will eat of it
  all the days of your life.
  
  18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
  and you will eat the plants of the field.
  
  19 By the sweat of your brow
  you will eat your food
  until you return to the ground,
  since from it you were taken;
  for dust you are
  and to dust you will return."
  
  Isn't tat already explicitly mention god create all these sufferings to men
• Chin Eng

  2 Sep 06, 10:01

  Originally posted by stupidissmart:

  I think u need to take into considerations tat "injury" is already created then. In the case of "suffering", it is like your children disobey u and eat a fruit, then u make them injured and make them suffer. Secondly, the suffering they experienced is directly implemented by god, not indirectly from your example.
  

  Ok, you example is still the Genesis account. Personally, I am not one of those who subscribe to the "literal" account of Genesis but as an analogical approach(yup, some of my Christian brethen may flame me for this one). I see Genesis as more of an philosophical version of creation. I also subscribe to the "Old Earth" theory of creation.
  
  The PUNISHMENT is directly implimented by God, the SUFFERING is the consequences of the punishment. Technically very different.
  
  So going to my POV of an analogical Genesis account, it is to show the consequences of disobedience. Therefore, to me, suffering is still the consequence of disobedience, the details are less important.
• Chin Eng

  2 Sep 06, 10:06

  Originally posted by davidche:

  sounds logical, but think about it.....if suffering doesnt exist in the first place, there wldnt be the consequence that you say is the action of adam and eve.
  In other words, when adam and eve sins, the suffering must be created for that to happen as a consequence.
  

  Lots of things did not exist in the first place. If I say to my son, if you don't do this, you will be punished for it... the punishment, while conceptualised, did not exist. It will only come into being if a certain requirement is not met.
  
  

  Originally posted by davidche:

  Now thats my first question.
  Secondly, if suffering is the consequence of adam and eve,which it is, God must have allowed suffering to be the consequence, thus God has allowed suffering?
  

  God allowed the punishment to be the consequence, suffering is what an individual feels when punished. Theoritically speaking, one does not need to suffer when punished.
  
  Perhaps the first queston should be: What is suffering?
• davidche

  2 Sep 06, 10:15

  i dont really understand.
  
  But nvm, i believe mine you believe yours loh!
  
  As long as there isnt anything wrong with mine...is there?
• Icemoon

  2 Sep 06, 10:15

  Originally posted by davidche:

  sounds logical, but think about it.....if suffering doesnt exist in the first place, there wldnt be the consequence that you say is the action of adam and eve.
  In other words, when adam and eve sins, the suffering must be created for that to happen as a consequence.
  
  Now thats my first question.
  
  Secondly, if suffering is the consequence of adam and eve,which it is, God must have allowed suffering to be the consequence, thus God has allowed suffering?
  
  

  Suffering should have existed before the Adam and Eve.
  
  Read the Covenant of Redemption - "is the agreement beyond time and within the Godhead that the Father would appoint the Son Jesus Christ to live a perfectly acceptable substitutionary life and die an undeserved death on behalf of, and as a covenantal representative for, those who would sin but would trust in Christ as their covenantal substitutionary representative." (wikipedia)
  
  In other words, Jesus was to suffer for our sins.
  
• davidche

  2 Sep 06, 10:22

  some things exist because of the lack of another.

  but we do know that for something to exist it must be created.
• ben1xy

  2 Sep 06, 11:02

  Originally posted by Chin Eng:

  Philosophically? Not everything is created (as in made directly), some things exist because of the lack of another. Darkness is merely the absence of light. Light exist, darkness does not. One can turn on a torch light and there is light, the opposite cannot exist - one holding up something that transmit darkness....
  If one believes in the Bible, suffering did not exist in the beginning. Suffering happens because of the consequences of the actions of Adam and Eve. Therefore suffering is a direct result of what Adam and Eve did. It is not a creation from God, per se.
  It's like this in my home, I tell my sons (since young) not to jump on the sofa or the bed or else you fall down and injure yourself. If they do that, and injure themself, it is not dad that brought suffering to them. Likewise, if they sustain an injury that will give a chain reaction to their offspring, it is also not my fault.
  
  So then what is suffering? Suffering is a have-not state of mind. What is suffering to one may not be suffering to another.

  I actually posted a similar reply to this to someone here before. It follows the Augustine view of deprevition of goodness. However, the fact remains that God allows this suffering to happen.
  
  which brings me to this question:
  can suffering be good? if yes, then it's not evil and should therefore make it easier to come to terms with Christian doctrine.
  
  Another question i would like to pose... is there something called needless suffering? Where suffering happens not for the better good, but juz happens abitrarily?
  
  instead of your son's example.. people use the classic example of a parent who's kid is in ICU. They send him to the hospital against his own wishes and the son has deemed his hospital stay as suffering. but this is not the case as his parents are doing this for the betterment of his health. However, unlike God, the parent will try to explain and be around the kid... this contrast with the silence of God, which gives little consolation to sufferers.
  
  
• Chin Eng

  2 Sep 06, 11:29

  Originally posted by ben1xy:

  I actually posted a similar reply to this to someone here before. It follows the Augustine view of deprevition of goodness. However, the fact remains that God allows this suffering to happen.
  

  Yup, I allow "suffering" to continue to my sons.... right now, one of them is "suffering" because he is being thought on how he should plan his school holidays in revising his mother tongue... and boy! does he looked like he is suffering. But is it suffering?
  
  

  Originally posted by ben1xy:

  which brings me to this question:
  can suffering be good? if yes, then it's not evil and should therefore make it easier to come to terms with Christian doctrine.
  

  I am not sure if there is any quotation that states that suffering is evil. If there is, I'd like to have that quotation pointed out to me. I'd rather view it as suffering may be necessary in order for us to know what is good. My current stand? Yup, suffering can be good, when there is a lesson learnt, and an objective achieved.... which obviously has nothing to do with people in poverty...
  
  

  Originally posted by ben1xy:

  Another question i would like to pose... is there something called needless suffering? Where suffering happens not for the better good, but juz happens abitrarily?
  

  Sure there is needless suffering. I'd say that these are the suffering that people refuse to come to terms with. Say, a love one dies and those who survived the deceased continues to grief over the loss. Coming to terms with it will put an end to the suffering.... obviously there are other more severe examples which I may not be able to quote.
  
  

  Originally posted by ben1xy:

  instead of your son's example.. people use the classic example of a parent who's kid is in ICU. They send him to the hospital against his own wishes and the son has deemed his hospital stay as suffering. but this is not the case as his parents are doing this for the betterment of his health. However, unlike God, the parent will try to explain and be around the kid... this contrast with the silence of God, which gives little consolation to sufferers.
  

  Silence of God or deafness of men? We need also to come to terms with that.
  
  It all goes back to what is the definition of suffering to the individual......
  Physical pain? Sickness? Depravation of certain niceties in life? Lack of the essentials? Lack of wealth?
• davidche

  2 Sep 06, 13:16

  Originally posted by ben1xy:

  I actually posted a similar reply to this to someone here before. It follows the Augustine view of deprevition of goodness. However, the fact remains that God allows this suffering to happen
  
  

  yes i know,
• davidche

  2 Sep 06, 16:24

  so beides me and chin eng, what is your stand for creation of suffering?
• ben1xy

  2 Sep 06, 16:45

  Originally posted by davidche:

  so beides me and chin eng, what is your stand for creation of suffering?

  i dun have a stand yet. still forming as i cannot convince myself with some of the arguements and the materials i have been reading. I will post my view when i can convince myself on a view if ever
• stupidissmart

  2 Sep 06, 19:20

  Ok, you example is still the Genesis account. Personally, I am not one of those who subscribe to the "literal" account of Genesis but as an analogical approach(yup, some of my Christian brethen may flame me for this one). I see Genesis as more of an philosophical version of creation. I also subscribe to the "Old Earth" theory of creation.

  Fair enough, then can u explain wat is your interpretation of the genesis 3:14-19 using an analogical approach
  
  

  The PUNISHMENT is directly implimented by God, the SUFFERING is the consequences of the punishment. Technically very different.

  I am puzzled by tis explanation. God gives the punishment, the punishment is suffering. (tat particular) Punishment=suffering. Now u telling me they r not the same thing. Wat is the technical difference between these 2 ?
  
  

  So going to my POV of an analogical Genesis account, it is to show the consequences of disobedience. Therefore, to me, suffering is still the consequence of disobedience, the details are less important.

  Suffering, if u follow genesis, did follow from disobedience. However technically the creator of suffering is still god, who implement it as suffering to the people. It is not men who have the power to create suffering and worse still implement it on themselves
• stupidissmart

  2 Sep 06, 19:25

  I think a fair definition of suffering can be derived from the bible
  
  men have to work
  men suffer pain
  men suffer death
  
  If there is no punishment to men, then men don't have to suffer these ordeals. And to say tat suffering is good (in any form how u argue), only means tat god had made the wrong model for adam since he is not meant to suffer initially. Adam is suppose to be good in his eye
• davidche

  2 Sep 06, 21:02

  Originally posted by stupidissmart:

  If there is no punishment to men, then men don't have to suffer these ordeals. And to say tat suffering is good (in any form how u argue), only means tat god had made the wrong model for adam since he is not meant to suffer initially. Adam is suppose to be good in his eye

  not really so, suffering is good cos it can lead a person to grow MORE spiritually, or MORE than other ppl.
  
  Suffering exists so that one is able to differenciate in between a situation where theres no suffering and a situation where there is. We wld be happy or satisfied with our lives when we WERE in a suffering state and later NOT.
  
  And thus we know the difference. We will learn to zhen1 xi2 that period and thank God for that period.
  
  
• NUS_Superst@r

  2 Sep 06, 23:37

  Originally posted by davidche:

  not really so, suffering is good cos it can lead a person to grow MORE spiritually, or MORE than other ppl.
  
  Suffering exists so that one is able to differenciate in between a situation where theres no suffering and a situation where there is. We wld be happy or satisfied with our lives when we WERE in a suffering state and later NOT.
  
  And thus we know the difference. We will learn to zhen1 xi2 that period and thank God for that period.
  
  

  I think you are crazy. If life gives you shit, you should give the shit back. If you still think like that, wait till i give you sufferings then u know.
• M©+square

  3 Sep 06, 01:46

  Originally posted by davidche:

  not really so, suffering is good cos it can lead a person to grow MORE spiritually, or MORE than other ppl.
  
  Suffering exists so that one is able to differenciate in between a situation where theres no suffering and a situation where there is. We wld be happy or satisfied with our lives when we WERE in a suffering state and later NOT.
  
  And thus we know the difference. We will learn to zhen1 xi2 that period and thank God for that period.
  
  

  If God were to allow suffering to follow you for the rest of your life.
  
  Would you accept it?
  
  You are adopting a very ideal mindset.
• Icemoon

  3 Sep 06, 02:05

  Originally posted by M©+square:

  If God were to allow suffering to follow you for the rest of your life.
  
  Would you accept it?
  
  You are adopting a very ideal mindset.

  yah lor .. even Jesus suffered only 3 years out of 33 years.
  
  if you are strict, 1 week.
  
  if you are stricter, few hours.
  
  if you are strictest .. only at that particular moment of crucification.