why
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Don't bluff .. you are not afraid of going to hell?Originally posted by pretzel:I think you are just afraid of going to hell for not believing. If the logic and scripture conflict, why should the scripture prevail? Why don't you think this way: If God doesn't exist, then you would have spent a huge part of your life believing in something that was a whole big lie. You would have spent a great amount of time gathering at a big house with strange people, mumbling to yourself your whole life. For nothing.
You won't do that, because you are afraid of going to hell.
Scripture prevails over logic because man is using fallen nature to reason Scripture.
I don't think it is just gathering at a big house with strange people. And it is not for nothing. Just think .. you make friends sometimes with influential people. I remember Pastor Kong's preaching the last time I went CHC - associate with the right people! They can just help you prosper faster (this part is by me). -
Abit. Fallen nature? That is true only if God exists. But there's no proof, is there? I think going to church is useful only for looking at chiobus. Are you one of them?Originally posted by Icemoon:Don't bluff .. you are not afraid of going to hell?
Scripture prevails over logic because man is using fallen nature to reason Scripture.
I don't think it is just gathering at a big house with strange people. And it is not for nothing. Just think .. you make friends sometimes with influential people. I remember Pastor Kong's preaching the last time I went CHC - associate with the right people! They can just help you prosper faster (this part is by me). -
I rather look at guys. Are you one of them?Originally posted by pretzel:Abit. Fallen nature? That is true only if God exists. But there's no proof, is there? I think going to church is useful only for looking at chiobus. Are you one of them?
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Of course I am. Why would a non-guy want to go church and look at chiobus. You can look at me all day if you want.
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Who is the non guy here?Originally posted by pretzel:Of course I am. Why would a non-guy want to go church and look at chiobus. You can look at me all day if you want. -
Infants who has not yet reached the age of accountability is covered by the Blood of Christ. They are fallen creatures--proof of this----death has also affected them.Originally posted by Icemoon:This runs contrary to the one belief that infants who die will go heaven.
Also .. this runs contrary to the fact that God favoured certain individuals in the OT whom He calls righteous.
I dunno they fallen or not .. but God clearly favoured them. Noah, Enoch etc.
All who are savingly favored in the OT are the ones who are saved and trusted in the coming Messiah for salvation. They are called righteous because they are saved people actually.
Naoh died---that's the proof of his being fallen in nature in the likeness of Adam.
All are infected by sin that's a fact of Scripture. How can we prove that a man or a woman or an infant is affected by the Fall of Adam? Death. -
You are sly aren't you? I mentioned Enoch .. why didn't you mention him in your reply?Originally posted by Ironside:Infants who has not yet reached the age of accountability is covered by the Blood of Christ. They are fallen creatures--proof of this----death has also affected them.
All who are savingly favored in the OT are the ones who are saved and trusted in the coming Messiah for salvation. They are called righteous because they are saved people actually.
Naoh died---that's the proof of his being fallen in nature in the likeness of Adam.
All are infected by sin that's a fact of Scripture. How can we prove that a man or a woman or an infant is affected by the Fall of Adam? Death.
I didn't even mention Elijah.
The part in red you can't come to that conclusion from the Old Testament, can you?
Age of accountability? The babies are not accountable, but they are not innocent also. -
I realized something .. Ironside is suggesting a physical death that results from the Fall in the garden .. that's why he argued everyone from Noah to babies died (he was careful to omit two counter-examples .. hehe)
But then .. is not the Fall about a spiritual death? -
all men and women fell when Adam fell.Originally posted by Icemoon:You are sly aren't you? I mentioned Enoch .. why didn't you mention him in your reply? I didn't even mention Elijah.
The part in red you can't come to that conclusion from the Old Testament, can you?
Age of accountability? The babies are not accountable, but they are not innocent also.
From Adam to the last man who will be on earth at the last day.
Was Enoch suscepticible to death? yes. If God did not rapture him to heaven he would have died like anyone here.
The babies before the age of accountability are innocent. But it does not mean that they were not affected by the fall.
about the part in red--i have written about it in this forum for about 4 times now. They were saved because of faith in the coming Messiah.
The word "righteous" in the OT are used to those people in the Old Testament who were saved.
Lot was called righteus because he was saved. Job was called righteous becase he was saved. And that goes to other people in the OT.
Actually Icy. this is not my opinion. I am not being sly. You can see that through a systmatic study of the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. -
That's a creative speculation about me Icy. But i never done anything of what you are saying here.Originally posted by Icemoon:I realized something .. Ironside is suggesting a physical death that results from the Fall in the garden .. that's why he argued everyone from Noah to babies died (he was careful to omit two counter-examples .. hehe)
But then .. is not the Fall about a spiritual death?
The Bible's proof that all were affected by the Fall of Adam was that all human beings die.
If ever you see a man who is about 4, 500 years old already and after checking on him you realize that this man will never die..you have a man there that does not need salvation.
If ever you see a baby that is not suceptible to death..that baby was not affected by the fall of Adam. -
What is meant by "age of accountability"? From which bible verse?
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The law of Kamma will answer your qns.
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it refers to the formation of conscience. When he or she already knows right from wrong. When his or her conscience now accuses him or excuses him. that knowledge of right and wrong becomes a law to him or her.Originally posted by SocialOutcast:What is meant by "age of accountability"? From which bible verse?
If he or she can perfectly obey his or her conscience from that point to death. He doesn't have a sinful nature. He is not a sinner. He will not even die by the way, because he has no sin [sinful nature] in him.
His conscience will be held binding by God upon hearing things which are in accordance to the Law of God. The more he or she hears things from the Law of God the more he or she will be held accountable. He is now obligated to fulfill and obey it. If he doesn't it will be imputed to him as sin. That conscience is a law to him or her. he or she is now in the age of accountability. He now knows what's right, he is now accountable before God to do it.
Gentiles who hasn't heared from the Law of God do not have an excuse. Somehow God at a certain age of man from birth has placed a sense of right and wrong in him or her.
babies do not know what's right and wrong. But they will at a certain age. Babies do have sinful sinful natures, yes. You'll see, when they grow up and know what's right from wrong they will invariably do wrong. They will invariably commit sin.
Conscience [speaking of gentile babies in particular] becomes a law to them when conscience is formed. But sin is not imputed when there is no law. -
not only spiritual death but physical and eternal death also.Originally posted by Icemoon:I realized something .. Ironside is suggesting a physical death that results from the Fall in the garden .. that's why he argued everyone from Noah to babies died (he was careful to omit two counter-examples .. hehe)
But then .. is not the Fall about a spiritual death?
Christ died for babies--spirit soul and body. when he grows up and realizes his sinful state before God and he will trust Christ, he will not only be saved spiritually, he will also be redeemed physically. You'll see. His body will be resurrected.
Christ died for all. Christ died for sin and for sins
Babies have SIN.......................as a nature But the kingdom of God belongs to such as these because of Christ work on the cross. -
Im sure light abnormalties or defects is good eventually. Cos it trains a persons character and the belief in God will have a much much hight and better foundation. Im not sure about those very serious once.
So God created it to be good.
I hope you ppl will know wad im implying. -
Originally posted by davidche:
Nope. not at all.
Im sure light abnormalties or defects is good [b]eventually. Cos it trains a persons character and the belief in God will have a much much hight and better foundation. Im not sure about those very serious once.
So God created it to be good.
I hope you ppl will know wad im implying.[/b]
You are telling me that being a down syndrome child is good.
Being Deaf and Dumb is good.
When you're not sure about those serious ones. Please do not come to such conclusion.
If you're talking about Weaknesses in Human Characters. It is acceptable. -
read again wad uve highlighted. Is down syndrome considered a light defect?Originally posted by M©+square:Nope. not at all.
You are telling me that being a down syndrome child is good.
Being Deaf and Dumb is good.
When you're not sure about those serious ones. Please do not come to such conclusion.
If you're talking about Weaknesses in Human Characters. It is acceptable.
Deaf and dumb?
I wish to bring about again my upper post. If anyone knows wad im implying pls pls pm me, ive got alot to talk to you about -
Friends, allow me to say this,
sometimes we really don't know if its a good thing or a bad thing, for someone to have defects in their body. some may turn out to be good, some may not, for this we (christians) can only put our trust in God, or Father to bring us through.
Having said these, we must also acknowledge its never easy for the person who is suffering, and also those people around him/her who loved and care for him/her.
why am I saying these, is to remind all that, we should never make any sweeping statement about who's fault or even if there is faults/sins for this type of suffering to happen.
thank you. -
Because they chose to be born like that. Its part of giving lessons to themselves and to those around them. So honour them for they are special indeed!Originally posted by bluewinged:can anyone enlighten me? if God created human why some people are borned with deficiencies? be it physical or mental. -
amen brother vince.Originally posted by vince69:Friends, allow me to say this,
sometimes we really don't know if its a good thing or a bad thing, for someone to have defects in their body. some may turn out to be good, some may not, for this we (christians) can only put our trust in God, or Father to bring us through.
Having said these, we must also acknowledge its never easy for the person who is suffering, and also those people around him/her who loved and care for him/her.
why am I saying these, is to remind all that, we should never make any sweeping statement about who's fault or even if there is faults/sins for this type of suffering to happen.
thank you. -
yup. I strongly agree. I get uncomfortable when people start spiritualising events, mishaps and disasters. and as Christians, instead of trying to spiritualise their sufferings, it would be much better to just be there for them or to keep them in your prayersOriginally posted by vince69:Friends, allow me to say this,
sometimes we really don't know if its a good thing or a bad thing, for someone to have defects in their body. some may turn out to be good, some may not, for this we (christians) can only put our trust in God, or Father to bring us through.
Having said these, we must also acknowledge its never easy for the person who is suffering, and also those people around him/her who loved and care for him/her.
why am I saying these, is to remind all that, we should never make any sweeping statement about who's fault or even if there is faults/sins for this type of suffering to happen.
thank you. -
You could also do a comparison between Singapore Christians and Christians elsewhereOriginally posted by ben1xy:yup. I strongly agree. I get uncomfortable when people start spiritualising events, mishaps and disasters. and as Christians, instead of trying to spiritualise their sufferings, it would be much better to just be there for them or to keep them in your prayers
Generally, having more than 40 years of peace from natural disasters and other mishaps which happen to other countries, Singaporeans tend to be apathetic as well as haughty towards such events, the remarks I used to read about the tsunami victims, Pakistani earthquake victims, Katrina victims as well victims of the recent Javanese tsunami and volcano eruptions are nothing less than along the line of 'they deserve it' or 'its god's punishment'.. -
not only limited to s'poreans i reckon. i was reading some of the stuff ppl posted.... like goshOriginally posted by laurence82:You could also do a comparison between Singapore Christians and Christians elsewhere
Generally, having more than 40 years of peace from natural disasters and other mishaps which happen to other countries, Singaporeans tend to be apathetic as well as haughty towards such events, the remarks I used to read about the tsunami victims, Pakistani earthquake victims, Katrina victims as well victims of the recent Javanese tsunami and volcano eruptions are nothing less than along the line of 'they deserve it' or 'its god's punishment'.. -
Actually, you are just being honest about it. Honestly, i got bothered by this doctrine too years ago. But i have to bow down to the teachings of Scripture. I always put this in mind: WHENEVER SCRIPTURAL REVELATION CONFLICT WITH MY LOGIC, IT SHOULD BE SCRIPTURE REVEALTION THAT SHOULD PREVAIL IN MY HEART AND MIND.
U should be careful. In many cults we can see wat happen when scripture overcome logic and they mass suicide or send their wives to be prostitute to earn money for the cult.Actually it is through this principle in Scipture about Federal Headships we got saved. This principle of Federal Headships is a blessing and a boon to us when we see another Federal Head--Jesus Christ.
The explanation shows tat god is unfair and do not view personal deeds but just look at the "representative head". It is stereotyping
Adam was no ordinary human being. He was the representative head of us all. When he fell, we fell also. This is clearly revealed to us in Romans 5. Some would contend that we did not fell in Adam we just inherited Adam's fallen nature. But continuing our reading of Romans 5 clearly portrays THE PRINCIPLE OF REPRESENTATIVE HEADSHIPS.
It never answer the basic question why does everyone get punished simply because of one man deed and the question tat his decendents, who r not present, can do little to salvage adam actions. People getting punished just because of his ancestors wrongs is a cursed principle. Furthermore the animals etc also get punished for adam fault. Wat is the logic behind tis then ? Does trees sin ? How come trees die as well ?Adam was our Federal Head right? But there is another Federal Head that came into the scene. The Second Adam or as our Bible's call it: the Last Adam--the Lord Jesus Christ.
Then wat happened to the people from adam to jesus ? They all have only 1 representation head which is adam and he eat the fruit, and even if u read romans 5, it claims tat the people before moses to adam all die and sent to hell. No matter wat they did they r condemned to hell. Even Noah, who is supposed to be better than the others, still go to eternal hell according to romans 5. Cursed principleWhen He lived here on earth, He lived righteously, He committed no sin. Then He died on the cross REPRESENTING ALL HUMAN BEINGS!!!!
Jesus decend from eve. Eve inherited sin from adam. How come jesus becomes sinless while we r sinful ? Double standard ! Cursed principle !In the Last Adam, we obeyed all of God's laws. Why? Because the Lord Jesus lived perfectly sinless. In Christ, we died to the penalty of our sins!!! We don't have to pay for it come Judgment Day for our Representative Head has paid that penalty for us [Christians]!!!!
Tat is again the strangest principle. Wat he did have nothing to do with me Also there is a fine print tat need to be noted. He pay the penalty for adam himself, not us. We didn't eat the fruit. And when we "change federal representation", how come men still die ? God still can't change representative head or he can't forgive though he claim to. If the penalty is paid, how come everything seems to be the same as before he die ?How can one transfer from the Federal Headship of Adam to Christ's Federal Headship?
There is another way. By rejecting adam as the federal head.
By trusting in Christ alone for salvation. Since we can get to choose if he represent us or not then I chose adam not to represent me They were saved because of faith in the coming Messiah. The word "righteous" in the OT are used to those people in the Old Testament who were saved.
Please quote to me the passage of the bible where babies r saved and old people of OT r saved. No one can say from the scripture tat babies r saved neither can they come to a valid conclusion tat some people from OT r saved because there r some verses tat claimed they all r sent to eternal hell. They only assume the more rational outcome simply because they want the religion to sound betterIf he or she can perfectly obey his or her conscience from that point to death. He doesn't have a sinful nature. He is not a sinner. He will not even die by the way, because he has no sin [sinful nature] in him.
How come trees or animals or a birth defect tat result in the baby being totally idiot still die ? Why does people brain dead and being held in vegetable state die ? They have no conscience. Given your example they should live forever.Because they chose to be born like that.
Prove it from the scripture. Where do u read tis from ? Otherwise tis is your own religion, not christainity. -
hello there my friend
you can take it or leave it actually.
i know your stand. i have read some of your posts here in this forum [small portions of it actually just a modicum amount of it] and i must say i have to obey Matthew 7:6.
your like CK
P.S. about your last quote:
"because they chose to be born like that"
why are you quoting that to me? I never said any of that kind. I never said anything in my posts here that:
"Because they chose to be born like that."
Look at the first page of this thread. It's Shade434 who said that.