law .. law .. law
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Actually becoming a Jew is a losing deal you know? Because the Jews chose God and thus God chose the Jews to be His chosen people. (very confusing hor?)Originally posted by laoda99:Is that why u want to become a jew?
The Jews have a burden to be the light of the world. There is added responsibility, hence they have 613 commandments to follow.
I wouldn't want to be them.
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Then what do u want to be? Tot u always write u want to be a jew. U seem so envious of them.Originally posted by Icemoon:Actually becoming a Jew is a losing deal you know? Because the Jews chose God and thus God chose the Jews to be His chosen people. (very confusing hor?)
The Jews have a burden to be the light of the world. There is added responsibility, hence they have 613 commandments to follow.
I wouldn't want to be them. -
because under the Christianity worldview, they suddenly have this second chance. So I envious of them.Originally posted by laoda99:Then what do u want to be? Tot u always write u want to be a jew. U seem so envious of them. -
hmmm...split personality again?Originally posted by Icemoon:because under the Christianity worldview, they suddenly have this second chance. So I envious of them. -
where got?Originally posted by laoda99:hmmm...split personality again?
You all created a scenario which I cannot resist mah. -
Certainly so, and if you ask me I agree with you... to a certain extent. Agape Love would not be the greatest virtue if God (Love itself) didn't think it was that way. And what's more all of the greatest commandments are based on such a notion. Love. Love. Love.Originally posted by Icemoon:Thanks for the explanation on Divine Incongruence.
Yah, I agree that is the real issue.
IMHO, my answer is .. why not?
But I guess on where we differ is that I believe that all humanity, even the best of the saints (in fact it was the greatest saints who were the most aware of their own unholiness), is unable to offer the kind of agape love needed to make it all right again.
What I feel we need is the Master of Love and selflessness itself to pave the way. -
Indeed it is (King David did it so). In fact I think this is the basis of how to get right with God in any case, even in Christianity.Originally posted by Icemoon:The Jewish formula is very simple. Repent with a contrite heart and seek forgiveness from God or the person whom you sinned against.
Of course the Christians have this curious idea that indeed this forgiveness has bodily come through a period known as the incarnation. And what's more it in the direction of the incarnation's sacrifice that the contrite heart and seeking of forgiveness must be directed.
Why it is so I have yet to comprehend, and perhaps even ask this question 'Did you really have to die for me?'. It's a strange question for a man drowining in sin such as myself to ask, when the safety bouy and rope is finally thrown to me that I start to ponder the rationale of method of my rescue.
If you ask me if why can't God just simply forgive any offense, without having to make any of that complicated thing as the incarnation. I shall say I don't have any idea beyond the fact that he seemed not only concerned with simply pardoning us, but also in showing that pardon in such a concrete way as to become incarnate, be torn apart by His very own creation, stripped naked and hung up to die.
It's just my guess but maybe He wasn't just interested in showing us His forgiveness, but also to show and help us understand a small bit of His measure of Love. And perhaps also to provide a specified direction to which all of humanity can now move, a living, breating example for the renewed state of man to which we will all one day become.
The humble and contrite heart is made perhaps even more humble and contrite when it realizes that God crazily (in human terms) decided to do something seemingly quite unnecessary for it. And perhaps it's just the start of something new. -
Actually they do not exactly say that they are following the LAW to be saved. The Law was given to the Israelites exclusively as a covenant Psams 147: 19-20.Originally posted by Icemoon:I'm irritated when some Christians "accuse" other religious followers of following the LAW, whether they are Buddhists, Jews or even Christians.
Why is there this [mis]-conception that other religious followers are following the LAW in order to receive salvation?
In the first place, the very same Christians are following the LAW of grace.
The rest of the world [gentiles] was committed to the law of conscience.
Here i will be dogmatic. if you look at religion books, all of them, only Christianity teaches that we can be saved not by our own doing but through the merits of another's work alone: Christ.
That's what makes Christiannity unique. -
Amen!Originally posted by Ironside:Actually they do not exactly say that they are following the LAW to be saved. The Law was given to the Israelites exclusively as a covenant Psams 147: 19-20.
The rest of the world [gentiles] was committed to the law of conscience.
Here i will be dogmatic. if you look at religion books, all of them, only Christianity teaches that we can be saved not by our own doing but through the merits of another's work alone: Christ.
That's what makes Christiannity unique. -
i miss ur edifying messagesOriginally posted by Ironside:Actually they do not exactly say that they are following the LAW to be saved. The Law was given to the Israelites exclusively as a covenant Psams 147: 19-20.
The rest of the world [gentiles] was committed to the law of conscience.
Here i will be dogmatic. if you look at religion books, all of them, only Christianity teaches that we can be saved not by our own doing but through the merits of another's work alone: Christ.
That's what makes Christiannity unique.
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Yah .. so the accusers in question are talking nonsense right? Because they do not exactly say that they are following the LAW to be saved.Originally posted by Ironside:Actually they do not exactly say that they are following the LAW to be saved. The Law was given to the Israelites exclusively as a covenant Psams 147: 19-20.The rest of the world [gentiles] was committed to the law of conscience.
Here comes the irony. When Christ came, they "lost" their chance of salvation because cannot rely on law of conscience liao. -
no irony la...Christ is the "best deal" mankind ever get.....Originally posted by Icemoon:Here comes the irony. When Christ came, they "lost" their chance of salvation because cannot rely on law of conscience liao.
somemore it is once-off.....never to be repeated....so dun miss the offer!!! -
1) Strictly speaking the ones who relied on the Law to be saved [due to wrong use of it] was the Jews. The Law [old covenant] was placed there to led them [israel] to Christ.Originally posted by Icemoon:Here comes the irony. When Christ came, they "lost" their chance of salvation because cannot rely on law of conscience liao.
Other religions cannot practice the Law for they know nothing of it. they are not in it. Yes, they may practice some things contained in the Law for they have the law of conscience but God does not see them in the covenant. So we Christians do not say that their religion is trying to observe the Law so that they will be saved. They [we] are not in it in the first place.
what we are saying is this: all other religions are based on salvation by works [works does not necessarily mean LAW] only one is not: Christianity.
The LAW served as a mirror. It will show that they cannot be perfectly righteous in thtemselves and so they need a Savior. Christ.
The Law was temporary. [when we say 'Law'.....it always refers to the old covenant made by God to israel].
Ga 3:19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator.
notice the Law's purpose was to show them that they are transgressors. Compare this verse to Romans 7:13, Romans 3:19-20. It was added. meaning it was not there before. it is temporary. notice the 'tll' word. it was there until Christ would come [Galatians 3:23-24].
The law of conscience was never there to be relied on to be saved. Salvation requires atonement for sins. No conscience can cover for sins committted. only through Christ death and resurrection. The only Savior i see on the cross is Christ.
i do not see any law of conscience crucified there. -
P.S. the law of conscience never ceases at the coming of Christ. it is a part of man's constituiton. however, due to sin it became perverted. When Christ came, our [Christians] consciences should be molded by the principles of grace enunciated in the New Covenant revealed in the New testament]. -
In the OT, the High Priest sacrifices a lamb every year? to atone for the sins of everyone in Israel?Originally posted by Ironside:The law of conscience was never there to be relied on to be saved. Salvation requires atonement for sins. No conscience can cover for sins committted. only through Christ death and resurrection. The only Savior i see on the cross is Christ.
i do not see any law of conscience crucified there.
This raises the question of the need to believe in Christ in order for the atonement to be valid. -
Actually I always ask myself this question - what is more important to God?Originally posted by laoda99:no irony la...Christ is the "best deal" mankind ever get.....
somemore it is once-off.....never to be repeated....so dun miss the offer!!!
1. That we believe in Jesus Christ? or
2. We try to make the world a better place and ourselves a better person?
Note that 1 can happen without 2 happening. -
What do u mean?Originally posted by Icemoon:In the OT, the High Priest sacrifices a lamb every year? to atone for the sins of everyone in Israel?
This raises the question of the need to believe in Christ in order for the atonement to be valid. -
Then u have not grasp the true essence of Christianity. The difference is: Your theology is still centered around "urself", in which u believe u can make the world a better place by "urself" and make "urself" a better person by "urself".Originally posted by Icemoon:Actually I always ask myself this question - what is more important to God?
1. That we believe in Jesus Christ? or
2. We try to make the world a better place and ourselves a better person?
Note that 1 can happen without 2 happening.
For the Christians' view, without 1. , 2. can never happen.
And for 2. We cannot make ourselves a better person without god. No one is good, except Christ, which is why we need Christ's righteous b4 god. With our own righteousness we can never stand b4 god. We will probably be more Chao Tar than "well-done". -
2 can happen and has happened in different religions.Originally posted by laoda99:Then u have not grasp the true essence of Christianity.
Without 1. , 2. can never happen.
And for 2. We cannot make ourselves a better person without god. No one is good, except Christ.
Buddhism: No god and yet they can be so compassionate.
It was said that Guanyin missed her chance to be Buddha becuase she wanted to stay back and help mankind achieve salvation. It was said that Lord Dizhang refuse to be Buddha until the hells are cleansed.
How many Christians can willingly "forgo" salvation and willingly accompany all their loved ones who are not saved in hell. (because they most probably land up in hell)
So whereas Jesus Christ gave up his life for mankind (no big deal, he was resurrected in the end) and offer everyone salvation for free, Lord Dizhang effectively told the hopeless souls in hell - no one will be left behind.
Jesus Christ was dead for 3 days. Lord Dizhang spent dunno how many years in hell liao.
PS: I might be wrong on the details, maybe Eternal Now can correct me.
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Christ gave up his life for mankind no big deal? I would say it is the biggest deal in history, becoz no Guanyin/Dizhang, no matter how compassionate they are, are able to redeem mankind for their sins, but Christ, being fully god and fully human, can.
Can u imagine God, sinless and perfect, come down as a man to help redeem man for the sins they have made? The full weight of sin made by mankind was borne by Jesus, not Guanyin/Dizhang.
In case u forget, Guanyin/Dizhang=human
Christ=god
We dun 'forgo' our salvation to save others icemoon, we spread the gospel so that others can be saved. Letting pple hear the gospel is the most important thing a Christian can do while he is still alive.
I rest my case.
P.S. Can u finally answer my question to u: Who is Christ to u?Originally posted by Icemoon:2 can happen and has happened in different religions.
Buddhism: No god and yet they can be so compassionate.
It was said that Guanyin missed her chance to be Buddha becuase she wanted to stay back and help mankind achieve salvation. It was said that Lord Dizhang refuse to be Buddha until the hells are cleansed.
How many Christians can willingly "forgo" salvation and willingly accompany all their loved ones who are not saved in hell. (because they most probably land up in hell)
So whereas Jesus Christ gave up his life for mankind (no big deal, he was resurrected in the end) and offer everyone salvation for free, Lord Dizhang effectively told the hopeless souls in hell - no one will be left behind.
Jesus Christ was dead for 3 days. Lord Dizhang spent dunno how many years in hell liao.
PS: I might be wrong on the details, maybe Eternal Now can correct me. -
No big deal because if He is God, what's the poking and crucification to Him? By the way, the Jews and Muslims will *never* entertain the thought of God going through such humiliation.Originally posted by laoda99:Christ gave up his life for mankind no big deal? I would say it is the biggest deal in history, becoz no Guanyin/Dizhang, no matter how compassionate they are, are able to redeem mankind for their sins.
In case u forget, Guanyin/Dizhang=human
Christ=god
I rest my case.
Crucification was a common punishment during Roman times, many people went through it (and I don't think anyone can survive). So in the first place such a punishment isn't any big deal.
In China, there are punishments worse than crucificaiton. Like the infamous ling2 chi2, you know what is that?
PRECISELY! If they are human and human already have such compassion, please quote me any Christian luminary in history who can match them? Who can willingly forgo salvation and say "I am backsliding, I will join you pagans in hell, you will all die assured that you have my company." -
Total depravity does not mean that all mean are reaaly bad in their works and deeds on the outside. That man could never do anything good.Originally posted by Icemoon:2 can happen and has happened in different religions.
Buddhism: No god and yet they can be so compassionate.
It was said that Guanyin missed her chance to be Buddha becuase she wanted to stay back and help mankind achieve salvation. It was said that Lord Dizhang refuse to be Buddha until the hells are cleansed.
How many Christians can willingly "forgo" salvation and willingly accompany all their loved ones who are not saved in hell. (because they most probably land up in hell)
So whereas Jesus Christ gave up his life for mankind (no big deal, he was resurrected in the end) and offer everyone salvation for free, Lord Dizhang effectively told the hopeless souls in hell - no one will be left behind.
Jesus Christ was dead for 3 days. Lord Dizhang spent dunno how many years in hell liao.
PS: I might be wrong on the details, maybe Eternal Now can correct me.
It teaches that all men are potentially as bad off as he can be. All the sins that have been committed in this world from the first to the last are in us potentially lying dormant and latent only HELD OFF BY COMMON GRACE.
Common grace explains why some people are 'good' and moral. Gandhi has God to thank for a lot of common grace in him.
all people experience God's common grace. Christians experience both saving and common grace.
in hell when common grace will be taken.........man will be so evil and so depraved all the time there. encapable of doing anything good.
Romans 1:23-31 is a picture of God taking away from man common grace. -
This is like PAP talking. If we bother to think deeper, we'll discover the fallacy.Originally posted by laoda99:Christ gave up his life for mankind no big deal? I would say it is the biggest deal in history, becoz no Guanyin/Dizhang, no matter how compassionate they are, are able to redeem mankind for their sins, but Christ, being fully god and fully human, can.
Can u imagine God, sinless and perfect, come down as a man to help redeem man for the sins they have made? The full weight of sin made by mankind was borne by Jesus, not Guanyin/Dizhang.
You said - The full weight of sin made by mankind was borne by Jesus. So let me ask you, is there any difference if Jesus was redeeming one person? The full weight of sin may be lighter, but it is only symbolically!
In actual fact, he will and only need to go through the same punishment! of the same intensity! -
Is God like PAP?Originally posted by Ironside:Total depravity does not mean that all mean are reaaly bad in their works and deeds on the outside. That man could never do anything good.
It teaches that all men are potentially as bad off as he can be. All the sins that have been committed in this world from the first to the last are in us potentially lying dormant and latent only HELD OFF BY COMMON GRACE.
Always harping on our sins. Why can't God just say "let's move on .. "
People already apologize/repent. What do you want him to do? It takes courage to apologize (and repent) for your sins, you know?
The real issues should be how you treat others, how you love God. Just apologize and move on. -
God is a holy god, he doesn't have to go thru the crucifixion to save mankind, but he did. He chose the nails (may sound like a book's name but I am using it anyway). And this was prophesized in your favourite OT too.
U are right that the Jews and muslims do not subscribe to this idea. If they would, then they would be christians already, not Jews and muslims.
I do not think u understand what Jesus went through during the Crucification. The full weight of human sin was on him, not just the physical pain of enduring the crucifixion. If u still think it is no big deal, then I would say your study of theology has gone to waste.
Sorry I dunno what is Ling Chi. I know what is Ling Zhi
I think I can quote u some pple who go thru human hell in order to save lives e.g. Damien a catholic priest who went to stay with leprosy patients to take care of them and in the end was infected.
But as I have said, Christians do not have to forgo their salvation. It is a different approach. It was said that Christ went to hell to proclaim to the dead during the three days that he has victory over death.
I do not want to compare what Christ did with Dizhang or Guanying. What Christ did, Dizhang and Guanying definitely cannot do, as the latter two is still human, while Christ, is God.Originally posted by Icemoon:No big deal because if He is God, what's the poking and crucification to Him? By the way, the Jews and Muslims will *never* entertain the thought of God going through such humiliation.
Crucification was a common punishment during Roman times, many people went through it (and I don't think anyone can survive). So in the first place such a punishment isn't any big deal.
In China, there are punishments worse than crucificaiton. Like the infamous ling2 chi2, you know what is that?
PRECISELY! If they are human and human already have such compassion, please quote me any Christian luminary in history who can match them? Who can willingly forgo salvation and say "I am backsliding, I will join you pagans in hell, you will all die assured that you have my company."