Will they go to Heaven?
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Don't know if anyone has discussed this topic b4 but i have been really curious bout it for some time.
Innocent lives of children being aborted, Aborogines(wats the spelling) in ulu jungles, all these innocent people have never been given the chance to hear the gospel. So how? Can still go heaven bo cause they never confess that Jesus is Lord and Savior? -
My quick answer for you is: if a person had not received Christ but have also not heard the gospel, God will judge this person based on the merits of his own works.
.... and yes, this question was discussed before in EH.
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When? can you please point me to it? Thanks.Originally posted by Chin Eng:My quick answer for you is: if a person had not received Christ but have also not heard the gospel, God will judge this person based on the merits of his own works.
.... and yes, this question was discussed before in EH.
Oh ya BTW how to judge an aborted child when the poor kid dont even have the chance to prove himself?
Sigh....guess secret lies with the Lord.....
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I'll try to check it out... if you don't hear from in a while, PM me.... I may forget.Originally posted by babyys:When? can you please point me to it? Thanks.
Oh ya BTW how to judge an aborted child when the poor kid dont even have the chance to prove himself?
Sigh....guess secret lies with the Lord.....
Aborted child probably go straight to heaven. -
babyys, as promised:
Revelations 20: 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Matthew Henry's commentaries on
Revelations 20:11-15 After the events just foretold, the end will speedily come; and there is no mention of any thing else, before the appearing of Christ to judge the world. This will be the great day: the Judge, the Lord Jesus Christ, will then put on majesty and terror. The persons to be judged are the dead, small and great; young and old, low and high, poor and rich. None are so mean, but they have some talents to account for; and none so great, as to avoid having to account for them. Not only those alive at the coming of Christ, but all the dead. There is a book of remembrance both for good and bad: and the book of the sinner's conscience, though formerly secret, will then be opened. Every man will recollect all his past actions, though he had long forgotten many of them. Another book shall be opened, the book of the Scriptures, the rule of life; it represents the Lord's knowledge of his people, and his declaring their repentance, faith, and good works; showing the blessings of the new covenant. By their works men shall be justified or condemned; he will try their principles by their practices. Those justified and acquitted by the gospel, shall be justified and acquitted by the Judge, and shall enter into eternal life, having nothing more to fear from death, or hell, or wicked men; for these are all destroyed together. This is the second death; it is the final separation of sinners from God. Let it be our great concern to see whether our Bibles justify or condemn us now; for Christ will judge the secrets of all men according to the gospel. Who shall dwell with devouring flames?
CE's layman's explanation: apparently the persons appearing in this scenario does not seem to have salvation, otherwise, they'd be in heaven already. these people seem to have died, or perished, or buried. Yet their bodies are resurrected to face the judge to account for their lifes. I'd say babies and those who have not heard the gospel will fall into this category. Whether in this modern times of high technology that it is possible for people NOT to have heard the gospel is another issue.
I need to state that Bible commentaries are written by scholars, but human nontheless, the issue of whether unsaved ignorant individuals have been discussed substantially in various church and apologetics websites and there is no universal answer. -
does heaven exist in the first place?
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why stop at heaven? why not the entire supernatural realm?Originally posted by dragg:does heaven exist in the first place? -
Originally posted by Chin Eng:
Thanks!
babyys, as promised:
[b]Revelations 20: 11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
Matthew Henry's commentaries on
Revelations 20:11-15 After the events just foretold, the end will speedily come; and there is no mention of any thing else, before the appearing of Christ to judge the world. This will be the great day: the Judge, the Lord Jesus Christ, will then put on majesty and terror. The persons to be judged are the dead, small and great; young and old, low and high, poor and rich. None are so mean, but they have some talents to account for; and none so great, as to avoid having to account for them. Not only those alive at the coming of Christ, but all the dead. There is a book of remembrance both for good and bad: and the book of the sinner's conscience, though formerly secret, will then be opened. Every man will recollect all his past actions, though he had long forgotten many of them. Another book shall be opened, the book of the Scriptures, the rule of life; it represents the Lord's knowledge of his people, and his declaring their repentance, faith, and good works; showing the blessings of the new covenant. By their works men shall be justified or condemned; he will try their principles by their practices. Those justified and acquitted by the gospel, shall be justified and acquitted by the Judge, and shall enter into eternal life, having nothing more to fear from death, or hell, or wicked men; for these are all destroyed together. This is the second death; it is the final separation of sinners from God. Let it be our great concern to see whether our Bibles justify or condemn us now; for Christ will judge the secrets of all men according to the gospel. Who shall dwell with devouring flames?
CE's layman's explanation: apparently the persons appearing in this scenario does not seem to have salvation, otherwise, they'd be in heaven already. these people seem to have died, or perished, or buried. Yet their bodies are resurrected to face the judge to account for their lifes. I'd say babies and those who have not heard the gospel will fall into this category. Whether in this modern times of high technology that it is possible for people NOT to have heard the gospel is another issue.
I need to state that Bible commentaries are written by scholars, but human nontheless, the issue of whether unsaved ignorant individuals have been discussed substantially in various church and apologetics websites and there is no universal answer.[/b]
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erm... i read somewhere before , there is no excused for everyone..
actually this is the problem which deter me the most from believing in Christ before i eventually believed in him.
i was thinking how can a person who did a good deeds all the time but just because that indivual doesnt believe in Christ , he will go to hell
while a Christian who lived a corrupted life but only by believing in Christ, he is allowed to go heaven and enjoyed eternal intimacy relationship with God.
here is the twist, erm.. im very in my memory, forgive me , anyone with better knowledge of the bible remember in 1 Corithians , something to do with
"...the sting of sin is death while the strength of the sin is the law"
and it is clearly stated that if someone committed sin (no matter u steal shoe lace or u kill someone, it is still considered a sin) , the wages of sin is death.... Again, i cant remember from which part of the bible , lol . i will write down all these if i found them k?
so even if someone do many good deeds, all his deeds cant redeem a single sin that he committed but only through faith in Jesus Christ.
while if a Christian believe in Jesus , refer to His words obediently , he will automatically try to minimise his sin and be good cos it please God !
what am i answering the right question? hahahaha -
KSM.
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oh ya u were asking abt ulu ulu place ppl ! hahahaha so i got carried away
THAT'S Y , u can see many evanglists going around the world , my church went to Thailand and bla bla , to as many as third world as possible as they have the least access to the Gospel unlike the more prosper countries.
So, i really encouraged u to be one too ! Share the Gospel and prepare His Kingdom. afterall , people only know Jesus around Egypt Israel there right? But look ! the Gospel are known to many and the bible are the most sellable book in the world right now !!
and it will continues! -
aborigines
indigenious ppl in aust.
they have their own gods. -
I believe they will go to heaven. Pls dont take this as an excuse to hate God or disbelieve in the gospel. I always encounter this smoke bomb when talking to my non Christian friend.Originally posted by babyys:Don't know if anyone has discussed this topic b4 but i have been really curious bout it for some time.
Innocent lives of children being aborted, Aborogines(wats the spelling) in ulu jungles, all these innocent people have never been given the chance to hear the gospel. So how? Can still go heaven bo cause they never confess that Jesus is Lord and Savior? -
my friend babyys
i deleted it. changed my mind.
I'll send my answer to you throug PM. -
perjury??
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btw.. i was wondering if God knows everything, then why does he still have to set trials and tribulations. isnt weird to test what you already know?
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because He is a supreme being whom we cannot understand
it is as good as explaining internet to an ant
lol. He gives us the freedom to choose, freedom to decide because only for one reason : He loves us.
hehe -
peacher may preach but people may not buy it, if preacher anyhow preach juz to spread as fast as possible and people dun buy it, wouldn't it be condamming them to hell when they could have being "judged" for their works?Originally posted by brown_obsession:oh ya u were asking abt ulu ulu place ppl ! hahahaha so i got carried away
THAT'S Y , u can see many evanglists going around the world , my church went to Thailand and bla bla , to as many as third world as possible as they have the least access to the Gospel unlike the more prosper countries.
So, i really encouraged u to be one too ! Share the Gospel and prepare His Kingdom. afterall , people only know Jesus around Egypt Israel there right? But look ! the Gospel are known to many and the bible are the most sellable book in the world right now !!
and it will continues! -
Besides playing a role of loving God , He is a just and faithful God too.
People in the past who dont believe salvation through Jesus, got their condemnation. He has to be a fair and just God , these people from the ulu place who dont buy the gospel has to pay the same price of penalty.
Imagine : Singapore should not withdraw its death penalty now because it would unfair to those who had received the death penalties in the past. ya i trying to get that point ! -
Innocent lives of children being aborted, Aborogines(wats the spelling) in ulu jungles, all these innocent people have never been given the chance to hear the gospel. So how? Can still go heaven because they never confess that Jesus is Lord and Savior?
to: babyys
nw it is indeed a very comprehensive debate regarding the issue on babies going heaven if aborted or die soon after birth...there r 2 major stands...one offers a very direct answer...the other leaves the issue hanging in the air...it depends on ur church stand on salvation...wad i mean? well, here goes...
1) the issue of calvinism n armenianism
sounds chim??? nw calvinsim is a stand tat is taken by many traditional churches...they believe tat way b4 anyone was created, God had alredi predestined(chosen) the ppl who wil be saved...some of them go further to even say tat since God predestined some to be saved...hence He muz have also predestined some for hell...the 2nd stand is nt common cos it makes God a condemning God to most christians...(read Rom9:18-23) ppl who take the calvinstic stand wil tell u tat the issue on babies is simple...those God had alredi pre-destined 4 heaven will go heaven...cos calvinism preaches tat whoever God has predestined, tat person wil nt be able to resist the inward calling of the Holy Spirit when it comes...in other words, God's grace n calling wil be so great tat the person cun resist/wun wanna resist....its diff. from saying tat God is forcing u...He juz brings forth His grace n love so strongly tat no man can resist(see also Eph1:4-6)
2) armenianism on the other hand preaches sth diff. it preaches tat God did nt predestined ppl to heaven...He left it up to man...so man has a free-will to choose whether to accept God anot...tis stand is also criticised cos it makes God one who isnt all-sovereign. some modern churches take tis stand...so for the issue on babies...they either tell u tat they dunno or tat the babies wil go heaven cos they know no sin(even though the original sin of adam is in them)
3) tis stand is an in between of the previous 2...it preaches tat God did do sth to man's salvation...however, He did nt predestined...He predetermined...wads the diff? to predetermine means tat God determined in advance tat all men wil be saved ie He wants n have chosen all for salvation...but its diff. from predestination cos it gives man a choice to reject wad God has determined...again the dispute is tat since man can reject God, then tat makes God nt all-sovereign...the counter-argument is tat if God does everything 100% n nt give man a choice at all, then wad kind of relationship wif God is tat? a relationship involves 2 parties...so God n man shld work hand-in -hand...for such a stand, again theres no confirm answer whether babies wil definitely go heaven...
my personal stand is the 3rd one...i feel tat God predetermined but He didnt predestined...true the word 'predetermined' is nt in the bible...but lets put it tis way, the word 'trinity' is nt in the bible too...yet christians all believe in it...as for babies in such cases, i believe God's judgment is fair n He wil judge wad is rite according to wad His Word actually says... -
Arrrgggghhh.....my pc crashed on me yucksss....
God judge a person by his "works".
Let me put it in this context. Say i am an aborogine, i've never had the chance to hear the gospel, no missionary has ever witness to me & let's just say my culture to for eg. as a per se, to eat human flesh is norm cause its
1) my culture
2) part of my staple diet
so in this instance i still go to hell ah? -
This is the only part I can find regarding those that do not have the Law
their consciences bear witness
Roman 2:14-15 (NIV)
14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
the thoughts either accuse/defend them. -
Sound like my fwen....Originally posted by despondent:
Let's see.
Cheers -
double postsOriginally posted by vince69:This is the only part I can find regarding those that do not have the Law
their consciences bear witness
the thoughts either accuse/defend them. -
amen vince....amen. There are two laws: the law of conscience and THE LAW.Originally posted by vince69:This is the only part I can find regarding those that do not have the Law
their consciences bear witness
the thoughts either accuse/defend them.
Israel -though they have the law of conscience- was given the Law in Sinai while the rest of the world went on with the law of conscience.
God judges us accordingly.