Interesting talk btw Athiest Prof & Christian Student
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Dunno leh .. you want an authoritative stand on the issue .. I show you one liao but you don't accept what can I do?Originally posted by HENG@:the catholic church is only a hundred or so archbishops, the pope and the vatican people. i'd hardly call that the majority view. or u mean catholics themselves, but u can't tell me for sure that their church's stance is their stance? -
u're quoting me the authority which also sanctioned and encouraged the crusades? the same authority which conducted the witchhunts and trials? the authority which MUST be right all the time everytime, and which can make no mistake? so by THAT authority u're telling me that its right to see homosexuality as a sin?Originally posted by Icemoon:Dunno leh .. you want an authoritative stand on the issue .. I show you one liao but you don't accept what can I do? -
I push this sai kang to the RC brethens ..Originally posted by HENG@:u're quoting me the authority which also sanctioned and encouraged the crusades? the same authority which conducted the witchhunts and trials? the authority which MUST be right all the time everytime, and which can make no mistake? so by THAT authority u're telling me that its right to see homosexuality as a sin?
Maybe sgMacross can ans you. Or you want MrBach from CC to ans you?
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why push? because you can't answer ah?Originally posted by Icemoon:I push this sai kang to the RC brethens ..
Maybe sgMacross can ans you. Or you want MrBach from CC to ans you? 
no, answer me leh, the catholic church authority can make no mistakes is it? they confirm are 100% right all the time one har? just like it was right to kill pillage and plunder as long as it was "in the name of God" or just like it was right to burn people at the stake because they are "heathens"
orh so by that authority u want to say homosexuality is a sin, and that that is a majority view, then say it la. i mean, if u can go by that authority, i don't suppose any sort of logical reasoning will convince u otherwise would it?
no wonder hitler also had that sort of view on homosexuality. birds of a feather flock together! -
The Church is made up of sinners, no doubt.Originally posted by HENG@:u're quoting me the authority which also sanctioned and encouraged the crusades? the same authority which conducted the witchhunts and trials? the authority which MUST be right all the time everytime, and which can make no mistake? so by THAT authority u're telling me that its right to see homosexuality as a sin?
The Church has committed plenty of atrocities, no doubt.
But let me ask you. If the Church teaches that 1+1=3, how can that be correct?
The Church has the teaching authority given by God himself. He said to the Apostles, "Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." -
wah leow .. you forcing me to be Catholic apologist?Originally posted by HENG@:why push? because you can't answer ah?
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so then, according to what u said, if the Church teaches that 1+1=3, how can that be correct? but they have teaching authority given by God himself mah! so must be correct loh!Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:The Church has the teaching authority given by God himself. He said to the Apostles, "Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
nvm its ok, u can think all u want that homosexuality is a sin. me, i prefer not to be part a group which includes Hitler, thanks. -
u asked for a stance le...Originally posted by HENG@:so did Hitler.
arghz.. u r taking my answer out of context -
Originally posted by Icemoon:wah leow .. you forcing me to be Catholic apologist?
u wanna base your argument on a premise, u better be prepared to argue it all the way to death.
but its ok. like i said, i prefer not to be part a group which includes Hitler, thanks. -
Let me finish my sentence. The teaching authority is only limited to matters on faith and morals. So if the Pope teaches that 1+1=3, then obviously he needs to take more classes in Math.Originally posted by HENG@:so then, according to what u said, if the Church teaches that 1+1=3, how can that be correct? but they have teaching authority given by God himself mah! so must be correct loh!
nvm its ok, u can think all u want that homosexuality is a sin. me, i prefer not to be part a group which includes Hitler, thanks. -
When you're not. I suggest not trying.Originally posted by Icemoon:wah leow .. you forcing me to be Catholic apologist? -
faith and morals? oh i guess its alright to kill in the name of god then. genocide in god's name is perfectly acceptable. they said its corrent didn't they? thats under morals isn't it? ah thank u for clearing that up.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:Let me finish my sentence. The teaching authority is only limited to matters on faith and morals. So if the Pope teaches that 1+1=3, then obviously he needs to take more classes in Math.
Hooray! im so happy not to be in the same group of similiar thinking people which includes Hiter, that I don't mind being seen as "wrong" -
Originally posted by M©+square:When you're not. I suggest not trying.
smartest thing i've heard here all day. its funny when they shoot themselves in the foot to no avail. at least when i shoot myself in the foot, i make sure my foot is aimed squarely at them. -
lol .. hitler was part of the human race ...Originally posted by HENG@:
u wanna base your argument on a premise, u better be prepared to argue it all the way to death.
but its ok. like i said, i prefer not to be part a group which includes Hitler, thanks.
u wanna relinquish that too? -
ok .. let me be Catholic apologist for once.Originally posted by HENG@:faith and morals? oh i guess its alright to kill in the name of god then. genocide in god's name is perfectly acceptable. they said its corrent didn't they? thats under morals isn't it? ah thank u for clearing that up.
I ask you back - did the Pope direct the genocide on the non-christians? You said people's stand != Pope's stand. So it follows the Crusaders' actions may not be the Pope's intention? -
here btw icemoon, i've asked. here's the reply:Originally posted by Icemoon:Ok .. at least the matter is clarified. Thanks.
I think you should do us a favour and ask them on whose authority are their "non denominational teaching" based?
I suspect their ans is .. no authority
Friend: What authority christianity is supposed to be one's relationship with God. it's a personal thing. Therefore it's one's interpretation that is more important than what u r being told
Me: ah but then they will say that if its all up to the individual, then there is no guidance
Friend: They are the conservatives. Then again, those guys dont have to deal with homosexuals - sheltered in sg -
yea but hey the pope sanctioned it didn't he? sure as hell didn't hear him saying "no no u cannot do that!"Originally posted by Icemoon:ok .. let me be Catholic apologist for once.
I ask you back - did the Pope direct the genocide on the non-christians? You said people's stand != Pope's stand. So it follows the Crusaders' actions may not be the Pope's intention? -
If Christianity was merely meant only to be a personal thing, why did Jesus build his Church on Earth?Originally posted by HENG@:here btw icemoon, i've asked. here's the reply:
Friend: What authority christianity is supposed to be one's relationship with God. it's a personal thing. Therefore it's one's interpretation that is more important than what u r being told
Me: ah but then they will say that if its all up to the individual, then there is no guidance
Friend: They are the conservatives. Then again, those guys dont have to deal with homosexuals - sheltered in sg
You see, a cross is made up of two pieces of wood. The vertical piece represents our relationship with God. And I agree with you in a way. A relationship with God should be the basis for believing.
But what about the horizontal piece? It represents our relation with others. We do not have to strive alone. We can journey together. It is not easy to be a believer, that is why we come together and learn from each other. -
Originally posted by ben1xy:lol .. hitler was part of the human race ...
u wanna relinquish that too?
have u seen my multiply website? its called ASEXUAL ANTIHUMAN.
so ok, hitler and me are all part of the big group called homosapiens. but break it down into smaller groups, and u find that hitler goes in the same category as the vatican for their idealogy. oh yea, and the justifiable genocide bit too. -
Prove it.Originally posted by HENG@:yea but hey the pope sanctioned it didn't he? sure as hell didn't hear him saying "no no u cannot do that!" -
dunno leh .. I would like to use your argument in arguing against the Pope's infallibilty, but then .. haiz .. let's see what the RCs have to say?Originally posted by HENG@:yea but hey the pope sanctioned it didn't he? sure as hell didn't hear him saying "no no u cannot do that!"
Honey? Macross?
Edit: wah .. so Macross just said "prove it" above - posted before my original reply -
i'll pass this on to him and i'll tell u what he says.Originally posted by SingaporeMacross:If Christianity was merely meant only to be a personal thing, why did Jesus build his Church on Earth?
You see, a cross is made up of two pieces of wood. The vertical piece represents our relationship with God. And I agree with you in a way. A relationship with God should be the basis for believing.
But what about the horizontal piece? It represents our relation with others. We do not have to strive alone. We can journey together. It is not easy to be a believer, that is why we come together and learn from each other.
here, this is what he says:
it is meant to be.. the Jeruselem temple was destroyed when Jesus died. the destruction of temple, something abt the altar of God now resides in our heart and we are our own priests now
btw i think pp talk legal and spiritual authority as if they are the same thing -
another article written by gay christian, who had undergone change therapy..
part 1
August 11, 2005
inside reparative therapy
By Gayhealth.com
With reparative therapy now in the media spotlight, here's an inside look at one gay man's first-hand experience with an ex-gay program.
The mainstream media – including CNN's Paula Zahn and ABC's Diane Sawyer – are paying close attention to ex-gay programs like "Love in Action" due to the imminent release of teen Zach Stark from a facility in Tennessee. With reparative therapy – which both the American Medical Association and the American Psychiatric Association say does not work – now in the media spotlight, here's an inside look at one gay man's first-hand experience with an ex-gay program (to protect the identity of individuals connected to the story, he's asked to remain anonymous).
I came out at an ex-gay ministry meeting.
Featured on the cover of Newsweek in August 1998, John Paulk was board chair of the umbrella ex-gay Christian group Exodus International when he was ejected from the board in Oct 2000 - several weeks after he was photographed in a popular gay bar in Washington D.C. His defence was that his only intention was to use the bathroom.
You know, one of those groups (very similar to "Love in Action") that promise to help gays "recover" from their homosexuality and become "normal" again.
Of course, I've always felt normal. So what if I loved MGM musicals and knew every line in Whatever Happened to Baby Jane?, right? To me, that was normal. But I equated approval with oxygen, so I kept such things to myself for years. I played the nice guy – the funny, gregarious and likeable guy. But no one knew the real me. To survive, I censored my authentic self.
Now, of course, surrounded by my wonderful friends and the freedom of New York City, being out is no big deal. Today, I'm just another person, not a label or stereotype – something I only could fantasise about before. But I'd never actually shared my unusual coming out story with my friends until recently, and was unprepared for the tremors it caused. "You did what?" said my friend Sally, as wide-eyed and stunned as the rest when told the unsettling news. "No you di'int!"
But I did, Sally, I did. Telling my friends – and seeing the look of shock on their faces – brought the experience back into sharp focus. Now, inspired with the hope that my story might actually help others, and in response to the ridiculous media reports that programs like "Love in Action" can make you straight, I've decided to share it.
The year was 1992 – obviously pre-Will & Grace, Queer Eye and let's not forget Ellen. I was a 20-something self-styled hipster (or at least I like to think so) with a cool media job in a conservative city in Florida. I lived in a spacious house near the beach, traveled widely and had money in the bank. On paper, it was my dream, one I'd worked hard for.
I always knew I was gay, and as I got older it became more difficult to stay in the closet, without the love and support of people who really knew me. Each day brought a feeling of isolation, and I grew more unequivocally desperate. I was having anxiety attacks when I wasn't darkly depressed, my only salve being my fantasies – and Joni Mitchell. I was dying of loneliness. No wonder lesbian and gay folks are at a greater risk for depression and anxiety – according to numerous studies – not to mention suicide.
So why didn't I just move to New York City or San Francisco and come out, you ask? Even though I was suffering, I wasn't yet ready to give up the life I'd worked so hard to build. And why should I have to? But with no gay role model – someone who was out and maybe even proud (is that too much to ask?) – I was lost, and didn't realise how much harm I was doing to myself by hiding. Times were very different: George Michael was still pretending to be straight and Bush Sr. was still president. There were no circuit parties, gay gyms or hip vodka ads trumpeting a suitable gay existence.
So what better time to try an Episcopal church-sponsored ex-gay ministry, right? I really thought that the solution to my problem wasn't coming out, or moving, or finding new friends. I thought being straight would solve all of my problems. My therapist (a nice, albeit clueless woman who I chose from the yellow pages because she took my insurance) had actually suggested it.
Not only was there potential to get "fixed," but I was also drawn to the idea because an ex-gay group would be filled with, well, gay men, and at least I could talk honestly – even shed a tear – with people who would understand what I was going through. What sweet relief! But it would come at a major price. -
Part 2, including my favourite part of the article.. =p
For starters, I hated the idea of "recovering" from who I was, like getting over an illness or disease. I wanted the support of a group of people who were like me, and I wanted to recover from the pain and isolation of hatred and homophobia, and a tiny part of me thought it would actually work.
So I mustered up the courage to drive to the meeting, held in a seedy but historical section downtown, in the city's oldest church. I sat in the parking lot, unable to move. I was sweating and nauseous; I wanted to flee.
Only about five or six other guys showed up to the meeting, but to me that was monumental. The meeting room seemed dark and depressing; the tension and shame in the air were suffocating. But that night, I uttered the words "I am gay" for the first time. I also talked openly about my feelings. Going to that meeting marked my first step toward freedom, no matter how fucked up the circumstances.
My unconventional coming out party went on for almost a year – days and weeks and months of 12-step meetings ("I admit that I'm powerless over my homosexuality..."), Friday night support groups (held so we wouldn't get tempted by local gay bars), and humiliating sing-a-longs ("Amazing Grace" was our anthem) surrounded by myriad married couples.
But what I'd hoped would help me connect with my true self, and with God, had the opposite affect: I had never felt lonelier, and I was darkly depressed. My soul felt dead, and so did I. My innate joy was buried in shame every day. I hated myself more than ever.
To contain my urge to be playful and camp it up, I instead wore a perpetual mask of gloom. If I was tempted to hit a bar, I called to chat with my 'sponsor' instead. We all added up the days since our last trip to a bar or hook up, and announced it at each meeting; instead of feeling proud, I felt punished, like Martha Stewart must have felt whiling away her days in Alderson.
Finally, something happened that changed everything for me. Completely by accident, our long-time group leader – a minister's son no less – was spotted having a gay old time with a shirtless pal in a nearby city (I'll spare you the details). In gay recovery circles, this is called a "slip" my friends, kind of like an AA member downing an entire bottle of Kettle One.
That was it. No more meetings. No more pretending. I was done.
After all, what was this accomplishing? I'd never felt less connected to God in my life. And I wasn't the only one who left the organisation for good. The word spread like wildfire. It was like we all saw the light. Ironically, the religious and spiritual experience I was searching for had finally happened. I felt the truth:
There was nothing wrong with me.
Of course, because we had all endured this painful attempt to excavate our straight selves, many of us also bonded. In fact, lots of late night coffees fuelled an intimacy that I find all too rare in today's gay community.
Sex was off-limits, so we actually got to know and accept each other as people (imagine that!). Instead of worrying about who had the lowest body fat percentages or the best jobs, we just really got to know and care for one another. In fact, I'm still friends with several of the guys from that group to this day; and yes, they're gay, and happily so. Some are even in long-term committed relationships.
My unsolicited advice, if you're struggling with merging your sexuality and spirituality? Lighten up on yourself as a first step. Self-acceptance is an incredibly powerful, and immediate, healer. Ultimately, that's all I needed to finally connect with life (and in my opinion, with God).
So don't let anyone tell you there's something wrong with you. Not ever!
Despite the crazies on the far right, much of society is evolved and accepting these days – and if they're not, screw them – and just let the rest happen naturally.
Trust me, I wish I'd have done exactly that right from the beginning. -
I agree that Christians should use more of the brain God has given them, and not just trust their pastor whole heartedly. But they have to start somewhere - not many people can claim, like charismatic pastors love to, that God gave them a vision. Read, pray, discuss.Originally posted by HENG@:Friend: What authority christianity is supposed to be one's relationship with God. it's a personal thing. Therefore it's one's interpretation that is more important than what u r being told
It is one thing to say the bible condones homo (using the ecc. verse) and another to say the bible is silent on it. I guess this is like a spectrum. Condemns - silent - Condones.Me: ah but then they will say that if its all up to the individual, then there is no guidance
don't seems to ans your qn.
Friend: They are the conservatives. Then again, those guys dont have to deal with homosexuals - sheltered in sg