Interesting talk btw Athiest Prof & Christian Student
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hey, no problem, if you think that animals and humans are the same, it's ok with me. It's just a difference in opinion, nothing theological. If I tell the dog that I am better than it, I don't think it cares, or if I tell the cow that I depend on it's species for sustenance, it will suddenly feel superior.... but I have not know any individual who will hump a lamp-post or a fire hydrant or someone's legs though I have heard of people "working out" with a vacuum cleanerOriginally posted by laurence82:what make humans different from animals? none
in fact, in many ways, animals are even more respectable than humans
i am more scared of a human than a hungry lion
and another point, u said because these researches are financed by the gay community, therefore its inadmissible
pls do highlight whats wrong with the research than what your biasness is
the research thing? well, whenever Christians quote from Christian sources, many non-Christians will certain make an issue of it because of bias or slanted research. To me, it is no different from a research funded by the gay community. Very much like the tobacco companies funding research on the effects of nicotine on the lungs, which typically will have results that states something very different from what medical authorities have discovered.
what I like to see is research done by National Geographic or Discovery Channel on the homosexuality of animals.
I am not bias against homosexuals. While I declare that I am homophobic because I am suspicious of all the claims of it being natural, I have never condemned a homosexual here or any where else. I think they rightly deserve to have a life and respect from those around them. So has it come down to: when I disagree with your opinions I am bias and when you disagree with mine, you're just being vocal in voicing your opinions. I don't think we need to come to this, Laurence. -
There is some shows done by these two channels on homosexuality on animals, on and off i do see them on the showsOriginally posted by Chin Eng:hey, no problem, if you think that animals and humans are the same, it's ok with me. It's just a difference in opinion, nothing theological. If I tell the dog that I am better than it, I don't think it cares, or if I tell the cow that I depend on it's species for sustenance, it will suddenly feel superior.... but I have not know any individual who will hump a lamp-post or a fire hydrant or someone's legs though I have heard of people "working out" with a vacuum cleaner the research thing? well, whenever Christians quote from Christian sources, many non-Christians will certain make an issue of it because of bias or slanted research. To me, it is no different from a research funded by the gay community. Very much like the tobacco companies funding research on the effects of nicotine on the lungs, which typically will have results that states something very different from what medical authorities have discovered. what I like to see is research done by National Geographic or Discovery Channel on the homosexuality of animals. I am not bias against homosexuals. While I declare that I am homophobic because I am suspicious of all the claims of it being natural, I have never condemned a homosexual here or any where else. I think they rightly deserve to have a life and respect from those around them. So has it come down to: when I disagree with your opinions I am bias and when you disagree with mine, you're just being vocal in voicing your opinions. I don't think we need to come to this, Laurence.
I dont engage in theological discussion anyway, i am just pointing out that particular post of yours, ceteris paribus, is particulary biased looking ,thats why i am asking u to clarify further
by the way, a homophobic is a gay in denial....good day!
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hmmm which dictionary did you use?Originally posted by laurence82:by the way, a homophobic is a gay in denial....good day!
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~brians/errors/homophobic.html
Some object to this word—arguing that it literally means “man-fearing,” but the “homo” in “homosexual” and in this word does not refer to the Latin word for “man,” but is derived from a Greek root meaning “same” while the “-phobic” means literally “having a fear of,” but in English has come to mean “hating.” “Homophobic” is now an established term for “prejudiced against homosexuals."
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=homophobic
[adj] prejudiced against homosexual people
I know, I am aware that the gay penguin article is not in a gay website, but the bulk of the others are. The countries you mentioned are very good with experimentation. There are drug parks in some of these countries.Originally posted by earthlings73:True but not all. In fact, the gay penguin article is not found on a gay website.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4352011/site/newsweek/
And with countries like Canada, Spain, Holland and Belgium accepting gay marriages, it means that the majority of the population (including both gays and straights) have accept homosexuality as natural as heterosexuality and hence should be accorded with equal rights.
Not all gay activists are gays
Shutting off now.... sleepy already. -
No worries lah.. U are a rather progressive Christian in my opinion.. But then, there are many other Christians who are ready to discriminate gays using morality as the justification..Originally posted by Chin Eng:hey, no problem, if you think that animals and humans are the same, it's ok with me. It's just a difference in opinion, nothing theological. If I tell the dog that I am better than it, I don't think it cares, or if I tell the cow that I depend on it's species for sustenance, it will suddenly feel superior.... but I have not know any individual who will hump a lamp-post or a fire hydrant or someone's legs though I have heard of people "working out" with a vacuum cleaner the research thing? well, whenever Christians quote from Christian sources, many non-Christians will certain make an issue of it because of bias or slanted research. To me, it is no different from a research funded by the gay community. Very much like the tobacco companies funding research on the effects of nicotine on the lungs, which typically will have results that states something very different from what medical authorities have discovered. what I like to see is research done by National Geographic or Discovery Channel on the homosexuality of animals. I am not bias against homosexuals. While I declare that I am homophobic because I am suspicious of all the claims of it being natural, I have never condemned a homosexual here or any where else. I think they rightly deserve to have a life and respect from those around them. So has it come down to: when I disagree with your opinions I am bias and when you disagree with mine, you're just being vocal in voicing your opinions. I don't think we need to come to this, Laurence.
The word homophobic is oftenly misused.. There's another milder term called homonegativism.. homophobic individuals usually have deep-seated hatred against homosexuals.. and they do react very negatively emotionally against gays.. homonegativism is just a negativism towards the gays.. usually nothing malicious..
http://www.oogachaga.com/downloads/homophobia_and_homosexual_arousal.pdf
Why I'm saying this is: If you believe that it's wrong to be homosexual, just make sure that you do not engage in homosexual acts (which is difficult since you are not sexually attracted to the same gender to begin with).. However, do not go around calling gays immoral.. that's when flames will start and it will turn into a never-ending debate..
Noboby can question anyone what they chose to believe. However, problems start when an individual uses their beliefs to JUDGE another individual (or insensitivity). This is where the problems start.
Anyway, just my 2 cents.. -
no lar, i dont mean the meaning, i mean the jokes on homophobic
aiyoh
generation gap...... -
Ta da...Originally posted by Chin Eng: what I like to see is research done by National Geographic or Discovery Channel on the homosexuality of animals.
.
National Geographic
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/07/0722_040722_gayanimal.html
Homosexual Activity Among Animals Stirs Debate
James Owen in London
for National Geographic News
July 23, 2004
Birds do it, bees do it, even educated fleas do it. So go the lyrics penned by U.S. songwriter Cole Porter.
Porter, who first hit it big in the 1920s, wouldn't risk parading his homosexuality in public. In his day "the birds and the bees" generally meant only one thing—sex between a male and female.
But, actually, some same-sex birds do do it. So do beetles, sheep, fruit bats, dolphins, and orangutans. Zoologists are discovering that homosexual and bisexual activity is not unknown within the animal kingdom.
Roy and Silo, two male chinstrap penguins at New York's Central Park Zoo have been inseparable for six years now. They display classic pair-bonding behavior—entwining of necks, mutual preening, flipper flapping, and the rest. They also have sex, while ignoring potential female mates.
Wild birds exhibit similar behavior. There are male ostriches that only court their own gender, and pairs of male flamingos that mate, build nests, and even raise foster chicks.
Filmmakers recently went in search of homosexual wild animals as part of a National Geographic Ultimate Explorer documentary about the female's role in the mating game. (The film, Girl Power, will be screened in the U.S this Saturday at 8 p.m. ET, 5 p.m PT on MSNBC TV.)
The team caught female Japanese macaques engaged in intimate acts which, if observed in humans, would be in the X-rated category.
"The homosexual behavior that goes on is completely baffling and intriguing," says National Geographic Ultimate Explorer correspondent, Mireya Mayor. "You would have thought females that want to be mated, especially over their fertile period, would be seeking out males."
Well, perhaps, in a roundabout way, they are seeking males, suggests primatologist Amy Parish.
She argues that female macaques may enhance their social position through homosexual intimacy which in turn influences breeding success. Parish says, "Taking something that's nonreproductive, like mounting another female—if it leads to control of a resource or acquisition of a resource or a good alliance partner, that could directly impact your reproductive success."
Sexual Gratification
On the other hand, they could just be enjoying themselves, suggests Paul Vasey, animal behavior professor at the University of Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada. "They're engaging in the behavior because it's gratifying sexually or it's sexually pleasurable," he says. "They just like it. It doesn't have any sort of adaptive payoff."
Matthew Grober, biology professor at Georgia State University, agrees, saying, "If [sex] wasn't fun, we wouldn't have any kids around. So I think that maybe Japanese macaques have taken the fun aspect of sex and really run with it."
The bonobo, an African ape closely related to humans, has an even bigger sexual appetite. Studies suggest 75 percent of bonobo sex is nonreproductive and that nearly all bonobos are bisexual. Frans de Waal, author of Bonobo: The Forgotten Ape, calls the species a "make love, not war" primate. He believes bonobos use sex to resolve conflicts between individuals.
Other animals appear to go through a homosexual phase before they become fully mature. For instance, male dolphin calves often form temporary sexual partnerships, which scientists believe help to establish lifelong bonds. Such sexual behavior has been documented only relatively recently. Zoologists have been accused of skirting round the subject for fear of stepping into a political minefield.
"There was a lot of hiding of what was going on, I think, because people were maybe afraid that they would get into trouble by talking about it," notes de Waal. Whether it's a good idea or not, it's hard not make comparisons between humans and other animals, especially primates. The fact that homosexuality does, after all, exist in the natural world is bound to be used against people who insist such behavior is unnatural.
In the U.S., in particular, the moral debate over this issue rages on. Many on the religious right regard homosexuality as a sin. And only this month, President Bush vowed to continue his bid to ban gay marriages after the Senate blocked the proposal.
Already, cases of animal homosexuality have been cited in successful court cases brought against states like Texas, where gay sex was, until recently, illegal.
Yet scientists say we should be wary of referring to animals when considering what's acceptable in human society. For instance, infanticide, as practiced by lions and many other animals, isn't something people, gay or straight, generally approve of in humans.
Human Homosexuality
So how far can we go in using animals to help us understand human homosexuality? Robin Dunbar is a professor of evolutionary psychology at the University of Liverpool, England. "The bottom line is that anything that happens in other primates, and particularly other apes, is likely to have strong evolutionary continuity with what happens in humans," he said.
Dunbar says the bonobo's use of homosexual activity for social bonding is a possible example, adding, "One of the main arguments for human homosexual behavior is that it helps bond male groups together, particularly where a group of individuals are dependent on each other, as they might be in hunting or warfare."
For instance, the Spartans, in ancient Greece, encouraged homosexuality among their elite troops. "They had the not unreasonable belief that individuals would stick by and make all efforts to rescue other individuals if they had a lover relationship," Dunbar added.
Another suggestion is that homosexuality is a developmental phase people go through. He said, "This is similar to the argument of play in young animals to get their brain and muscles to work effectively and together. Off the back of this, there's the possibility you can get individuals locked into this phase for the rest of their lives as a result of the social environment they grow up in."
But he adds that homosexuality doesn't necessarily have to have a function. It could be a spin-off or by-product of something else and in itself carries no evolutionary weight."
He cites sexual gratification, which encourages procreation, as an example. "An organism is designed to maximize its motivational systems," he adds.
In other words, if the urge to have sex is strong enough it may spill over into nonreproductive sex, as suggested by the actions of the bonobos and macaques. However, as Dunbar admits, there's a long way to go before the causes of homosexuality in humans are fully understood.
He said, "Nobody's really investigated this issue thoroughly, because it's so politically sensitive. It's fair to say all possibilities are still open." -
ah.. r u talking to me..Originally posted by laurence82:no lar, i dont mean the meaning, i mean the jokes on homophobic
aiyoh
generation gap......
no lah.. i typed that message independently of what you wrote.. great mind thinks alike!
yah.. what you've said though is a joke, has been proven in psychological study.. look at the link i've posted.. -
oh no.. you were not talking to me.. ha.. generation gap indeed.. ha..Originally posted by laurence82:no lar, i dont mean the meaning, i mean the jokes on homophobic
aiyoh
generation gap...... -
..............Originally posted by earthlings73:oh no.. you were not talking to me.. ha.. generation gap indeed.. ha.. -
it seems very hypocrital that for those practices which might inconvenience u in your daily lives, such as not wearing mixed fibres and not shaving, u have to "evolve it" while those which don't affect u, u wholeheartedly hang on to it. I mean, who decides what should be dropped n what should be hung on to? As long as some human decides that, who is to really say if that is right or wrong, accurate or not? How can u answer this doubt?Originally posted by Icemoon:I think one good way to approach it would be to try understand the reason for certain practices.
I believe Chin Eng gave a summary of the various kinds of practices in the OT. I listed another important one during my "debate" with laoda last time. If you remember, I said all the funny sacrifice practices are not applicable today, as they are "Temple practices".
There is another commandment from the Pentateuch, can't remember which, but Jews take the liberty to use a substitute as the original one stated in Scripture does not exist or too hard to find.
So you see, practices are not dead and they do evolve.
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because most Xtians have something against it, because they say "the bible says so" i mean, a lot of xtians i know have told me, that Jesus never made anyone feel guilty, which seems to be the main aim of these homophobic xtians. Hell its not even a fixed issue right now if homosexuality is without a doubt a sin, amongst xtians themselves.Originally posted by F Bunta:Why do we always end up talking about homosexuality?
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ooorrr...Originally posted by laurence82:no lar, i dont mean the meaning, i mean the jokes on homophobic
aiyoh
generation gap...... sorry.... maybe sleepy or something.... and generation gap.... -
Originally posted by HENG@:
Hi heng..
it seems very hypocrital that for those practices which might inconvenience u in your daily lives, such as not wearing mixed fibres and not shaving, u have to "evolve it" while those which don't affect u, u wholeheartedly hang on to it. I mean, who decides what should be dropped n what should be hung on to? As long as some human decides that, who is to really say if that is right or wrong, accurate or not? How can u answer this doubt?
Reality, is no single person can make such a decision. Christianity do not have powerful leaders who can change the course of a trend of belief. Of course, someone will now attempt to state that the Pope can do that - the Pope can declare all he wants, but there will be little pockets of resistance that will never go away.
Yes, everything evolves. There are still little "ultra-orthodox" Jewish and Christian communities that hang on to everything that is stated in the Bible. Then there is the large group that believes that things evolve, some faster and some slower. At the end of this spectrum of beliefs, there are the really "progressive" ones who treats everything in the Bible as super guidelines which can be changed at the drop of a coin. I am guessing that most of the Christians that hang out at EH belong to the middle group. I would be very happy to read any personal experiences from a gay-Christian if this person is willing to post in the EH. -
u need to communicate more with xiao lianOriginally posted by Chin Eng:ooorrr... sorry.... maybe sleepy or something.... and generation gap....
bery hard, sumtimes talk to u bery hard.... -
I guess the early church faced this problem as well. Read how Paul chastised Peter .. haha .. but how did they resolve the issue? For example, why did the Sabbath changed to Sunday and why can gentiles eat pork? You educate me, will ya?Originally posted by HENG@:it seems very hypocrital that for those practices which might inconvenience u in your daily lives, such as not wearing mixed fibres and not shaving, u have to "evolve it" while those which don't affect u, u wholeheartedly hang on to it.
I mean, who decides what should be dropped n what should be hung on to? As long as some human decides that, who is to really say if that is right or wrong, accurate or not? How can u answer this doubt?
Agree with uncle eng on the reality part. Heck, reality is most Jews are not very religious - so is God a lie? Hmm .. maybe you should suggest God is a lie to your xtian friends. -
wah. sleep so late wake up so early....Originally posted by laurence82:u need to communicate more with xiao lian
bery hard, sumtimes talk to u bery hard....
what's xiao lian? Is is xiao1 lian3 or xiao3 lian2? First one is smiley face, the second is some ah lian name.
maybe sometimes I take serious topics too seriously.... -
The closest is Laosu, have not seen her for a while. She posted this in another thread under "Bar" forumOriginally posted by Chin Eng:I would be very happy to read any personal experiences from a gay-Christian if this person is willing to post in the EH.
I was Christian. I don't choose to be this way cause for more than 20 yrs coming to a close 30yrs I've been struggling. I gave up. I gave up not because I lost faith in him but because I still want to believe in Him. For as long as I can remember, I tried means and ways to turn str8. Seek Him for an answer. Seek Him for help. For so many years, I was blind. It was only 4yrs back that I finally realised that He wanted me to leave so that I will reserve the only faith left I have of Him. He had given me and answer and the answer is within myself. Seek the truth and the truth is who is the real me.
I am the real me.
I'm not afraid of people bombing me. I know my words and I believe in them. I believe in Him. What's the use of holding on to a bible and read it every day when the meanings are not even in your heart? Why condemn others when you yourself are being condemned (refering to those who critized and judged other's way of life)? Every human is a reflection of each other. What you hide is what you see in others and what others sees in you are what they hide. For those who judged others, they are being judged by others too.
I am who I am. I'm proud to be me now. I'm proud to know Him. I dare to look at those who dare to judge me Cause they have no rights to. For every finger being pointed at me, four other fingers are being pointed at themselves.
if you need more inputs, you can visit this site, started by gay christians and for gay christians:
http://www.oursafehaven.com/main.htm -
no, youngstersOriginally posted by Chin Eng:wah. sleep so late wake up so early....
what's xiao lian? Is is xiao1 lian3 or xiao3 lian2? First one is smiley face, the second is some ah lian name.
maybe sometimes I take serious topics too seriously.... -
just to add (and to boost rating),
I think there are two ways to understand the commandments:
1.
From the Jewish perspective, there are two essential categories of mitzvot (commandments) - chukim and mishpatim. the former are mitzvots whose reason is intuitive. For example, why can't we murder ah heng? The latter are mitzvots whose meaning is obscure. For example, why can't we eat pork? For chukim, it could be we have not yet grasped certain things and need to defer to God's eternal wisdom. Maybe one huge pig infection takes the world by surprise and you are glad you don't eat pork?
2.
From the treasury of Jewish wisdom, commandments can be divided into whether they involve God or they involve our fellow human beings. For example, worship and sacrifice involve God and commiting adultery involves fellow human beings obviously. And it follows that there are two kinds of sin too - sins against God and sins against "your neighbour".
Christians seemingly ignore this important observation - that God cannot forgive your sins against other people. How can God say "your sins are forgiven" just like that? Hence their order of repentance is wrong - seek forgiveness from God then the person. Shouldn't it be seek forgiveness from the person then from God? Which one makes more sense, you tell me? -
Originally posted by earthlings73:
And if you are progressive enough, the following article is a good read.. But be forewarned, the points raised might be controversial.. But if you understand the logic behind all the arguments, you will start to accept the article..
The closest is Laosu, have not seen her for a while. She posted this in another thread under "Bar" forum
[b]I was Christian. I don't choose to be this way cause for more than 20 yrs coming to a close 30yrs I've been struggling. I gave up. I gave up not because I lost faith in him but because I still want to believe in Him. For as long as I can remember, I tried means and ways to turn str8. Seek Him for an answer. Seek Him for help. For so many years, I was blind. It was only 4yrs back that I finally realised that He wanted me to leave so that I will reserve the only faith left I have of Him. He had given me and answer and the answer is within myself. Seek the truth and the truth is who is the real me.
I am the real me.
I'm not afraid of people bombing me. I know my words and I believe in them. I believe in Him. What's the use of holding on to a bible and read it every day when the meanings are not even in your heart? Why condemn others when you yourself are being condemned (refering to those who critized and judged other's way of life)? Every human is a reflection of each other. What you hide is what you see in others and what others sees in you are what they hide. For those who judged others, they are being judged by others too.
I am who I am. I'm proud to be me now. I'm proud to know Him. I dare to look at those who dare to judge me Cause they have no rights to. For every finger being pointed at me, four other fingers are being pointed at themselves.
if you need more inputs, you can visit this site, started by gay christians and for gay christians:
http://www.oursafehaven.com/main.htm[/b]
http://www.oursafehaven.com/articles/whatthebiblesays.pdf -
orrr! shao4 nian2!Originally posted by laurence82:no, youngsters -
yeah.... I am aware of this website as well as the church in question.....Originally posted by earthlings73:And if you are progressive enough, the following article is a good read.. But be forewarned, the points raised might be controversial.. But if you understand the logic behind all the arguments, you will start to accept the article..
http://www.oursafehaven.com/articles/whatthebiblesays.pdf
your other reference on laosu is more interesting 'cos I'd not read about it before.
I have my opinions with regards to the points and theology in this website as well as the posting by laosu, but I'd rather not put them here. If you want, we can take it offline..... -
Tell me about the commandment of being a child of God.Originally posted by Icemoon:just to add (and to boost rating),
I think there are two ways to understand the commandments:
1.
From the Jewish perspective, there are two essential categories of mitzvot (commandments) - chukim and mishpatim. the former are mitzvots whose reason is intuitive. For example, why can't we murder ah heng? The latter are mitzvots whose meaning is obscure. For example, why can't we eat pork? For chukim, it could be we have not yet grasped certain things and need to defer to God's eternal wisdom. Maybe one huge pig infection takes the world by surprise and you are glad you don't eat pork?
2.
From the treasury of Jewish wisdom, commandments can be divided into whether they involve God or they involve our fellow human beings. For example, worship and sacrifice involve God and commiting adultery involves fellow human beings obviously. And it follows that there are two kinds of sin too - sins against God and sins against "your neighbour".
Christians seemingly ignore this important observation - that God cannot forgive your sins against other people. How can God say "your sins are forgiven" just like that? Hence their order of repentance is wrong - seek forgiveness from God then the person. Shouldn't it be seek forgiveness from the person then from God? Which one makes more sense, you tell me? -
gay-xtian? i can go one better and introduce you to a TG-xtian. but i doubt she'll want much to do with the xtians in EH. she thinks they forgot that Christ never made anyone feel guilty and she also wonders who are the xtians in EH to declare that homosexuality is a sin.Originally posted by Chin Eng:Hi heng..
Reality, is no single person can make such a decision. Christianity do not have powerful leaders who can change the course of a trend of belief. Of course, someone will now attempt to state that the Pope can do that - the Pope can declare all he wants, but there will be little pockets of resistance that will never go away.
Yes, everything evolves. There are still little "ultra-orthodox" Jewish and Christian communities that hang on to everything that is stated in the Bible. Then there is the large group that believes that things evolve, some faster and some slower. At the end of this spectrum of beliefs, there are the really "progressive" ones who treats everything in the Bible as super guidelines which can be changed at the drop of a coin. I am guessing that most of the Christians that hang out at EH belong to the middle group. I would be very happy to read any personal experiences from a gay-Christian if this person is willing to post in the EH. -
wot? u can't answer my doubts so u throw a little sarcasm back at me huh? So I'll ask u again, who decides what should be dropped n what should be hung on to? As long as some human decides that, who is to really say if that is right or wrong, accurate or not? How can u answer this doubt? If u can't answer, then don't bother. Don't try being smart alecky.Originally posted by Icemoon:Agree with uncle eng on the reality part. Heck, reality is most Jews are not very religious - so is God a lie? Hmm .. maybe you should suggest God is a lie to your xtian friends.