Christmas
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Then it surely can't be on the festival since he went, he escaped, he got caught later and he dies a few day after.
Btw, something caught my eye about this earlier post. Where did you read about Jesus escaped from the Roman captors? Haven't heard that one..
Incidentally, I am not knowledgeable about biblical issues...not my field at all. I am more comfortable with mice and genes...and I have not been to church for more than a year already
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Or mushrooms?Originally posted by oxford mushroom:I am more comfortable with mice and genes...
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So this is what this thread is about huh? That Jesus must be fiction cos' we cannot be sure when he was born and when he died? I don't even know when my grandfather was born and that was less than 100 years ago
I don't know about your grandfather but if u wanna ask any person birth and death date, I mean FAMOUS people, u can find it to be accurate. If u go and check, u can find when and where napoleon was borned, find mother teresa borned and died. In fact aristotle date of birth and death is 384 BC and died in 322 BC respectively. Even plato is May 21, 427 BC, Death Date:, January 14, 347 BC. These people live and died be fore jesus was even borned. How come Jesus nobody can be sure ?So is it your argument that he did not exist, was not born, did not die and certainly did not resurrect; but someone wrote a bestseller fiction that is read over 2000 years and commands a following of millions of people today. What's more, followers of 2 other major rival religions (Judaism and Islam) also believed the story that at least he existed. Wow....
Yes
U know Buddhism also has its share of accomplishment such as influencing china and india, influencing more people for more years than the bible. SO if u believe bible to be true, then buddhims must be false and by tat u r trying to say tat someone wrote a bestseller tat commands millions of people in the past for over 5000 years. There r mnay other example such as zoratranian and hinduism and taoist. Com'on, tat is wat religion is all about isn't it ? -
How? Issit? Look what I uncovered (http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/plato.htm):Originally posted by stupidissmart:Even plato is May 21, 427 BC, Death Date:, January 14, 347 BC. These people live and died be fore jesus was even borned. How come Jesus nobody can be sure ?It is widely accepted that Plato, the Athenian philosopher, was born in 428-7 B.C.E and died at the age of eighty or eighty-one at 348-7 B.C.E. These dates, however, are not entirely certain, for according to Diogenes Laertius, following Apollodorus' chronology, Plato was born the year Pericles died, was six years younger than Isocrates, and died at the age of eighty-four ( D.L. 3.2-3.3). If Plato's date of death is correct in Apollodorus' version, Plato would have been born in 430 or 431. Diogenes' claim that Plato was born the year Pericles died would put his birth in 429. Later (at 3.6), Diogenes says that Plato was twenty-eight when Socrates was put to death (in 399), which would, again, put his year of birth at 427.
Yes
Let's not go into comparisons if we cannot agree on an objective standard. FYI, more years don't mean more people, as seen in ancient Egyptian religions. U know Buddhism also has its share of accomplishment such as influencing china and india, influencing more people for more years than the bible.
Aiya, you talk so much influence china and india .. yet what I see today? India has stronger influence of Hinduism while china is official communist with no emphasis on Buddhism.
In contrast, what began in little town in a small nation (compare with china and india .. u know they how big or not?) is now the main religion in the western world. And thanks to missionaries, the gospel is even heard in ulu tribes in ulu parts of the world.
If you want to compare, then I say the Jesuit priests introduced the modern calendar to China, during the Qing Dynasty. And I can go on. Even western classical music is founded on christianity. You know the chorales of Bach? Handel's Messiah? And I can go on and on ..There r mnay other example such as zoratranian and hinduism and taoist. Com'on, tat is wat religion is all about isn't it ?
Don't give me the crap lah. Here is my knockdown argument:
Even SIS is more familiar with Bible than the Bbhagavad Gita, the Dao De Jing and the secret gongfu manuals of the Ming Sect (of Jin Yong fame) or the Yijing Jing and Xishui Jing from Shaolin.
I dare say there are many professed taoists and buddhists who are not even acquainted with their holy books. There are 66 books in the Bible. How many chapters are there in the Dao De Jing? Bible starts with "In the beginning ..". What is the opening verse in the Dao De Jing? -
How? Issit? Look what I uncovered (http://www.iep.utm.edu/p/plato.htm):
Okay, then let me ask is there anything wrong with the dates of aristotle, or galileo or other famous people death and birth dates ?Let's not go into comparisons if we cannot agree on an objective standard. FYI, more years don't mean more people, as seen in ancient Egyptian religions.
The we should start to say tat more people, doesn't make a religion correct or wrong. If u r talking about influence, in the past buddhism has a higher population than christainity. And talking about introducing music etc, wat has tis got to do with saying christainity must be true ? Nothing as well. If going by your argument, then all of us should be jewish since jews started earlier, influence more people and started 2 major religions. As said before, religion can influence people blindly and surely only one of them can be right, making the other fiction. Telling people there r many believers means nothing. It is the same as telling china is always right since it has a bigger population.
Aiya, you talk so much influence china and india .. yet what I see today? India has stronger influence of Hinduism while china is official communist with no emphasis on Buddhism.
In contrast, what began in little town in a small nation (compare with china and india .. u know they how big or not?) is now the main religion in the western world. And thanks to missionaries, the gospel is even heard in ulu tribes in ulu parts of the world.
If you want to compare, then I say the Jesuit priests introduced the modern calendar to China, during the Qing Dynasty. And I can go on. Even western classical music is founded on christianity. You know the chorales of Bach? Handel's Messiah? And I can go on and on ..I dare say there are many professed taoists and buddhists who are not even acquainted with their holy books. There are 66 books in the Bible. How many chapters are there in the Dao De Jing? Bible starts with "In the beginning ..". What is the opening verse in the Dao De Jing?
So wat is your point u r trying to say ? The longer the book the better ? Telling straight to the point a story is better than giving a general introduction first ? All these doesn't prove a religion right too isn't it ? WHy don't u tell me wat is wrong with saying in the beginning than the intro from dao de jing ? -
The debate is not on whether Jesus existed, everyone knows he did.Originally posted by oxford mushroom:So this is what this thread is about huh? That Jesus must be fiction cos' we cannot be sure when he was born and when he died? I don't even know when my grandfather was born and that was less than 100 years ago
So is it your argument that he did not exist, was not born, did not die and certainly did not resurrect; but someone wrote a bestseller fiction that is read over 2000 years and commands a following of millions of people today. What's more, followers of 2 other major rival religions (Judaism and Islam) also believed the story that at least he existed. Wow....
I better read the bible then...maybe I can learn to write something better than Dan Brown...
I'm just curious about Christmas and its pagan ancestry. -
Unfair comparison. Aristotle's father was the family physician of King Philip of Macedonia (http://galileoandeinstein.physics.virginia.edu/lectures/aristot2.html). Whereas Jesus' parents were just simple people not connected to famous people, hence less likely to leave a proper record.Originally posted by stupidissmart:Okay, then let me ask is there anything wrong with the dates of aristotle, or galileo or other famous people death and birth dates ?
Hello, even Siddhartha Gautama was a prince ok.
If u r talking about influence, in the past buddhism has a higher population than christainity.
How you know?
And talking about introducing music etc, wat has tis got to do with saying christainity must be true ?
Nothing. I had the impression you are trying to compare whose influences is bigger.
WHy don't u tell me wat is wrong with saying in the beginning than the intro from dao de jing ?
Aiya I think you misunderstood lah. I was trying to say the Bible is the true bestseller among the religious holy books. -
The debate is not on whether Jesus existed, everyone knows he did
Personally, I do not believe jesus exists. And if in the remotest possibility tat he exists, he is a fraud. If u believe he exists and he is not a fraud, then u r really a christianUnfair comparison. Aristotle's father was the family physician of King Philip of Macedonia (http://galileoandeinstein.physics.virginia.edu/lectures/aristot2.html). Whereas Jesus' parents were just simple people not connected to famous people, hence less likely to leave a proper record.
Why unfair ? Jesus is god isn't it ? U mean the level of god is lower than king or princes ? Jesus himself know his own birth date, his mother also know the date and probably his foster father as well. I thought even the wise men who see his birth also know of the date as well. His disciple is spreading the word and he don't bother to find out when he live or die ? Tat sounds ridiculous
Hello, even Siddhartha Gautama was a prince ok.How you know?
Well, considering the fact tat it used to be the national religion of china, japan, thailand, vietnam, cambodia, myanmar, tibet and have a large follower base in India, it seems to be for a period of time more influencial than christainity considering the fact tat is started off as a cult. Anyway both started at different times so in the past it is really true buddhist is more influencial, logically more since Christ is not born yetNothing. I had the impression you are trying to compare whose influences is bigger
The person who wanna compare the influential is not really me
I am trying to bring out the point tat religion makes peopel irrational and generate a lot of believers even though it is for sure most of them r wrong. Just because there is a lot of believers meant nothingAiya I think you misunderstood lah. I was trying to say the Bible is the true bestseller among the religious holy books.
How do u know ? I thought the muslim quran is an equally good contender to be the best world seller since it was believed it is the religion with the most believers. -
Aiya, maybe he is just a wise man or something. Don't need go into extreme say he is a fraud right?Originally posted by stupidissmart:Personally, I do not believe jesus exists. And if in the remotest possibility tat he exists, he is a fraud.
Why unfair ? Jesus is god isn't it ? U mean the level of god is lower than king or princes ?
Aiya, the birthday of God not important since God has no beginning.
His disciple is spreading the word and he don't bother to find out when he live or die ? Tat sounds ridiculous
How does knowing birthday bring about salvation? Hello, is knowing your rabbi's birthday one of the laws also?
You sound even more ridiculous now.
Well, considering the fact tat it used to be the national religion of china, japan, thailand, vietnam, cambodia, myanmar, tibet and have a large follower base in India, it seems to be for a period of time more influencial than christainity considering the fact tat is started off as a cult.
But the buddhism in these countries are not coordinated. It is like they sprung up here and there due to different factors. But look at the Catholic Church. It exerts its power even in different nation states starting from Emperor Constantine, notwithstanding the dark ages.
What you mean "it started off as a cult"?
How do u know ? I thought the muslim quran is an equally good contender to be the best world seller since it was believed it is the religion with the most believers.
Don't talk cock lah. You know how many verses from the Quran other than the much twisted "fulfill will of God to enjoy virgins in heaven" teaching?
I don't think you know what is the first book or chapter in the Quran and what does it talk about.
If a much learned person like SIS also dunno much about the Quran, you think it is world best seller meh? -
Aiya, maybe he is just a wise man or something. Don't need go into extreme say he is a fraud right?
U mean a wise men will lie about saying he is the son of god or god himself ? Tis is not extreme, it is really a lie. If u believe he is a real son of god, then u r a christian. There is nothign wrong here isn't it ?Aiya, the birthday of God not important since God has no beginning
There r tons of people in tis world who say tat christmas is importantHow does knowing birthday bring about salvation? Hello, is knowing your rabbi's birthday one of the laws also?
Sorry man, the discussion is not whether is it important or not in your religion. It is on whether do they know or not from a hitorical view. Even the birth date of someone with a much lesser importance is recorded, yet he is not recorded ? SOmething is wrong isn't it ?
You sound even more ridiculous now.But the buddhism in these countries are not coordinated. It is like they sprung up here and there due to different factors. But look at the Catholic Church. It exerts its power even in different nation states starting from Emperor Constantine, notwithstanding the dark ages.
So wat if it is not coordinated ? i am saying buddhism, not a particular school of buddhism. If u look at buddhism, they do influence the stated country too as well, and tat age is longer than christainity.
What you mean "it started off as a cult"?
BTW, after jesus death, the main religion is jewish and the disciples r prosecuted almost everywhere. They r really a cultDon't talk cock lah. You know how many verses from the Quran other than the much twisted "fulfill will of God to enjoy virgins in heaven" teaching?
U know how to read or not ? the question is on whether which book sell out more. Now wat the hell r u talking about by mentioning totally different things ? U might as well admit u do not know if the quran do sell out more or got read more than the bible. U think it is twisted, people think the bible is twisted. In the bible they say tat the wives and children of your slave is your possession and u can make them your sex slave if u want. U think tat isn't twisted ? U think I do not know the quran, but then u r not me and u can't say for sure either. Why do u get tis conclusion ? U r getting out of point. All these points never acheive its effect of saying the bible get sell out more than the quran. U don't know, u say the wrong conclusion then u just have to admit it isn't it. [/quote]
I don't think you know what is the first book or chapter in the Quran and what does it talk about.
If a much learned person like SIS also dunno much about the Quran, you think it is world best seller meh? -
double
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I think Jesus is something people created as a need for a higher power, a divine intervention of their own lives. The need for a metaphysical being that can be worshipped by the masses. Jesus may have been a real person, but I believed he was a mere mortal, not a divine being. He may have super natural gifts that can act as a catalyst for him to be immortalised throughout the past until the present but heck, what do we know? Aliens are more realistic these days anyway
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it was known that at the time of his birth, some people make out a constellation of goats in the night sky. so he's Aries... in April.. i forgot which date.. watched this documentary @ discovery/ national geographic... and his birth is actually 5 yrs earlier than 0 BC.
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I think Jesus is something people created as a need for a higher power, a divine intervention of their own lives. The need for a metaphysical being that can be worshipped by the masses. Jesus may have been a real person, but I believed he was a mere mortal, not a divine being. He may have super natural gifts that can act as a catalyst for him to be immortalised throughout the past until the present but heck, what do we know? Aliens are more realistic these days anyway
My personal opinion of jesus if he lived is tis. He is probably a target of bullying since young because he is, well, a really bas... I mean a son with no proper father. In those jewish days, tat is probably little tolerated and he get victimised, leading him to hate the religion since young and he will never have a good future except being a carpenter. Then one day he together with some of his friends formed a group who like to go around acting and cheating people by saying he is god or something. His friend will go ahead and prepare some acting of being heal etc or prepare some illusion to trick the otherwise naive people. He is pretty clever and well, do want to go against jewish and he made some interesting replies to the people who want to say they r fraud. He became popular because people felt the ways of the jews r, probably too harsh and ridiculous to live by and his idea of being more relax and humane makes it popular. He have to continue to use the OT although he do not like it because he already told people he is son of the old god before. He can't contradict himself then. Anyway tis catch the eyes of the jewish priest and they decide to prosecute and kill him. He got caught and he knew he can't escape, so he might as well say he die for the people to make the best use of the lousy cards dealt to him. After he died, he and the rest of his friends, who still wanna go around cheating, decide to say he reserect and carry on the same game so they can laze in future. Much future in time, a political organisation decide to use tis cult as a new pawn in his quest for conquest, compile the bible of things he want to include and delete off things he do not want to, and exaggerated almost everything tat jesus had done to godly status. After tat, it is history
Tis is a possible scenario but of course, it is all wat I imagine myself and certainly not proven. Anyway it has been fun writing tis scenario, to me at least
So if there is anyone who wanna come out and say tis is bull, I am not gonna stop u. The above is really bull but it do sounds like a possible history outcome -
U have a point. There is a secret aethist in all of us
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He never explicitly claim to be god. You must be mistaken.Originally posted by stupidissmart:U mean a wise men will lie about saying he is the son of god or god himself ? Tis is not extreme, it is really a lie.
There r tons of people in tis world who say tat christmas is important
They mean the significance (commercial, religious etc.) and not the actual date. This is why Armenian Orthodox Christians observe the holiday on 6th January while other Orthodox churches, and at least one eastern Catholic church, mark Christmas on 7th January.
It is on whether do they know or not from a hitorical view. Even the birth date of someone with a much lesser importance is recorded, yet he is not recorded ? SOmething is wrong isn't it ?
They know what, isn't it recorded in Josepheus? But why must you die die want the real date before you are satisfied?
Let's view Jesus in context. Don't give me the crap why the birth of Aristotle is recorded and Jesus is not. Let's have a fair test shall we?
You know the Jewish scholar Hillel? I assume you know, how can a person of your intelligence don't right?
Now Hillel is a historical person, unless you want to prove otherwise. Now a person of his fame surely will be recorded very carefully in records, but too bad .. read http://www.bookrags.com/biography-hillel/
I leave you to find out when was Rabbi Gamaliel, the teacher of Apostle Paul, born.
So wat if it is not coordinated ? i am saying buddhism, not a particular school of buddhism. If u look at buddhism, they do influence the stated country too as well, and tat age is longer than christainity.
Longer than christianity? You stated china, japan, thailand, vietnam, cambodia, myanmar, tibet .. the last time I read, China wasn't influenced by Buddhism until before the Sui Dynasty.
And what about Japan? Read http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/japan/buddhism/buddhism.html
Aiyah, don't waste my time lah. Go and read http://library.thinkquest.org/28131/4history.htm No, I am not its author.
Hence I declare your statement "If u look at buddhism, they do influence the stated country too as well, and tat age is longer than christainity" to be pure shit.
BTW, after jesus death, the main religion is jewish and the disciples r prosecuted almost everywhere. They r really a cult
I am fine with this.
U might as well admit u do not know if the quran do sell out more or got read more than the bible.
The bible sells out more and is read more. Just think, how many languages is the Quran translated compared to Bible?
Oh yah, the bible got like 300 years headstart. Islam started around 600 years after Christ.
U think I do not know the quran, but then u r not me and u can't say for sure either.
Then please inform the audience in Eternal Hope on where you can find Jesus mentioned in the Quran.
Aiya, you search use google one .. not fun.
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He never explicitly claim to be god. You must be mistaken
U must be grossly mistaken
luke 22:70
They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?"
He (jesus) replied, "You are right in saying I am."They mean the significance (commercial, religious etc.) and not the actual date. This is why Armenian Orthodox Christians observe the holiday on 6th January while other Orthodox churches, and at least one eastern Catholic church, mark Christmas on 7th January.
tat is strange, his birth date is one of the most celebrated day yet u r telling me it is not important ? Doesn't a lot of churches hold special mass on tat day ? If people understand why the date of birth of aristotle is important, then why can't they preserve the date of christ ?They know what, isn't it recorded in Josepheus? But why must you die die want the real date before you are satisfied?
Who the hell is Hillel ? I don't know him. Using your silly argument, if someone of my intelligence do not know him, then surely tis person is totally insignificant isn't it ? Who was Rabbi Gamaliel as well ? I do not know him too, so he is insignificant as well. Why don't u ask around truly who the heck know these people. But I do know who is napoleon, who is galileo, who is pythagoras, who is archimedes though. I am sure there r a lot of people who knew who they r. R u gonna tell me u do not know who r they ? And guess wat, their dates r all recorded ! If u wanna real test, tis should be a real test isn't it ? U mean god is more unimportant than these people ? Their date r recorded and jesus date is forgotten ?
Let's view Jesus in context. Don't give me the crap why the birth of Aristotle is recorded and Jesus is not. Let's have a fair test shall we?
You know the Jewish scholar Hillel? I assume you know, how can a person of your intelligence don't right? Now Hillel is a historical person, unless you want to prove otherwise. Now a person of his fame surely will be recorded very carefully in records, but too bad .. read http://www.bookrags.com/biography-hillel/
I leave you to find out when was Rabbi Gamaliel, the teacher of Apostle Paul, born.Longer than christianity? You stated china, japan, thailand, vietnam, cambodia, myanmar, tibet .. the last time I read, China wasn't influenced by Buddhism until before the Sui Dynasty.
I do wrote about india isn't it ? How can u just conveniently do not add it into your quote ?
And what about Japan? Read http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/japan/buddhism/buddhism.html
Aiyah, don't waste my time lah. Go and read http://library.thinkquest.org/28131/4history.htm No, I am not its author.
Hence I declare your statement "If u look at buddhism, they do influence the stated country too as well, and tat age is longer than christainity" to be pure !%%$.
In your website it is already stated tat Emperor Asoka ruled much of india in 250 BC. Please read the word Emperor, and the word 250 BC. In China, during 25 AD where it gained popularity. Wat about christainity ? They r still a cult ! They remains to be a cult until 300++ AD ! It is only after Constantine then does christainity see the daylight ! Wat is the time gap ? 600 YEARS ! Now buddhism is already establish in a year much younger than christianity, and u refuse to acknoledge tat ? U see tat is bullsh!t, maybe because your perception is wrong ?The bible sells out more and is read more. Just think, how many languages is the Quran translated compared to Bible?
If it is translated more, does tat means it is being read more ? Only the mainstream language is more important isn't it ? Again u have raised another irrelevant point out. And even if the bible is out earlier by 300 years ? SO ? It doesn't means it is the best selling book isn't it ? During the past time do u think the people can afford to buy a bible ? I thought they r prohibited to read them themselves ! For a long time they remains as such isn't it ? Nobody knows who got sell out more, and u dare to claim tat u must be right !
Oh yah, the bible got like 300 years headstart. Islam started around 600 years after ChristThen please inform the audience in Eternal Hope on where you can find Jesus mentioned in the Quran.
So there can't have any conclusive evidence to say tat I do not know the quran. Then your conclusion is wrong and tat the quran is really read by a lot of people.
Aiya, you search use google one .. not fun -
Save your judgement for yourself.Originally posted by stupidissmart:U must be grossly mistaken
luke 22:70
They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?"
He (jesus) replied, "You are right in saying I am."
I wrote "He never explicitly claim to be god. You must be mistaken" .. to which you gave me a verse about "Son of God"? wtf ..
tat is strange, his birth date is one of the most celebrated day yet u r telling me it is not important ? Doesn't a lot of churches hold special mass on tat day ?
A lot of churches don't mean ALL. Orthodox churches celebrate on 7 Jan .. what do you have to say to this? It is not important to determine his birthday to the exact date. xtians don't go to war over this.
If people understand why the date of birth of aristotle is important, then why can't they preserve the date of christ ?
Who are these people?
Before you continue, I implore you to go research which historical source(s) record the birth of aristotle. You find liao then can show us who is the author and how come he thinks the date is important.
Who the hell is Hillel ? I don't know him. Using your silly argument, if someone of my intelligence do not know him, then surely tis person is totally insignificant isn't it ?
He is not insignificant. He is one of the greatest rabbis recorded in the Talmud. Don't believe go and google. Or you want to prove me wrong? Please, don't say you dunno hence he insignificant. We all know how cock you are .. lol
Who was Rabbi Gamaliel as well ? I do not know him too, so he is insignificant as well.
He is recorded in the NT as the teacher of Apostle Paul.
But I do know who is napoleon, who is galileo, who is pythagoras, who is archimedes though
Aiya, don't claim credit for something which everyone, as you said, knows. It only make you look stupid. Come on, what's the point of telling people everyone knows 1+1 and you know it too?
And guess wat, their dates r all recorded ! If u wanna real test, tis should be a real test isn't it ?
No. napoleon and galileo lived too far from Christ. Napoleon was an emperor, for goodness sake.
Pythagoras date well recorded? Go and read http://www.bookrags.com/biography-pythagoras/. For archimedes, read http://www.bookrags.com/biography-archimedes/ You think they record down pythagoras and archimedes birthdaes as well? Bullshit ..
Encarta gave a rough date for Jesus' birth. http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761565222/Jesus_Christ.html Britannica showed how they derive the rough year for his death http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article?tocId=9368533 We can safely say Jesus died circa 29 AD.
In your website it is already stated tat Emperor Asoka ruled much of india in 250 BC. Please read the word Emperor, and the word 250 BC.
ya la ya la what you trying to prove? If you wanna compare the age (250BC to constantine), then ancient Egyptian religion wins hands down.
They r still a cult ! They remains to be a cult until 300++ AD ! It is only after Constantine then does christainity see the daylight !
Not really. Some emperors before Constantine weren't too hostile to chrisitianity. It was just that Constantine made it the state religion. Surely buddhism did not become state religion in 25 AD?
Wat is the time gap ? 600 YEARS ! Now buddhism is already establish in a year much younger than christianity, and u refuse to acknoledge tat ?
Aiya, if you want to argue like this, then ancient egyptian religion wins hands down lah.
If it is translated more, does tat means it is being read more ? ........ Nobody knows who got sell out more, and u dare to claim tat u must be right !
Aiya, must I find another website to silent you?
From http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=14
So there can't have any conclusive evidence to say tat I do not know the quran.
The Top 10 Bestselling Books of All Time (according to IPL):
1. The Bible
"No one really knows how many copies of the Bible have been printed, sold, or
distributed. The Bible Society's attempt to calculate the number printed
between 1816 and 1975 produced the figure of 2,458,000,000. A more recent
survey, for the years up to 1992, put it closer to 6,000,000,000 in more than
2,000 languages and dialects. Whatever the precise figure, the Bible is by far
the bestselling book of all time."
You refuse to tell us where can we find Jesus in the Quran. How you expect me to believe you? -
Save your judgement for yourself.
I have shown u he claim he was the son of god. He couldn't be a wise man if he lie and when he claim he was son of god, he is claiming he is god. Unless u believe tat the idea of trinity is bullsh!t, god is god and son of god is son of god... But if u believe tat trinity is bullsh!t, u r not a real othodox christian anyway
I wrote "He never explicitly claim to be god. You must be mistaken" .. to which you gave me a verse about "Son of God"? wtf ..A lot of churches don't mean ALL. Orthodox churches celebrate on 7 Jan .. what do you have to say to this? It is not important to determine his birthday to the exact date. xtians don't go to war over this.
SO the chruches who celebrate masses on christmaas day r not othodox ? I thought even catholic got a mass on tat day ? SO catholic are not othodox ? As long as some of the churches celebrate on tat day, it meant the day of his birth is important. Why do they celebrate on 7, if perhaps they couldn't find exactly wat date he was born. Wat do u have to say to tat ? Xtian don't go to war over tis ? SO unless they go to war, the things r not important at all ? The probably a lot of things r not important in the religionWho are these people?
http://www.bookrags.com/biography-aristotle/
Before you continue, I implore you to go research which historical source(s) record the birth of aristotle. You find liao then can show us who is the author and how come he thinks the date is important.
The date is recorded shows it is already important to be noted. Why should they go around and tell everyone why their birth date is important ? Isn't it obvious ? Tat is why almost all people u know now have their birth date recorded.He is not insignificant. He is one of the greatest rabbis recorded in the Talmud. Don't believe go and google. Or you want to prove me wrong? Please, don't say you dunno hence he insignificant. We all know how cock you are .. lol
To most people, he is unknown. I am not gonna be proud and tell u honestly, I really do not know him untill u bring him up. Or u r gonna say tat everyone knows who the hell is Helliel except me ? The examples i have given shown tat significant people have their dates recorded. And they r not born a prince or kings etc. They et famous later in life and people begin to record their brith date.He is recorded in the NT as the teacher of Apostle Paul.
If u ask a normal christian probably they do not know who is he at all. U can't really give a famous person tat live at tat time and without a birthdate can't u ?Aiya, don't claim credit for something which everyone, as you said, knows. It only make you look stupid. Come on, what's the point of telling people everyone knows 1+1 and you know it too
Tat is the whole idea. We compare with people tat everyone knows, not some people tat r, frankly unknown. U know them too, they r not from noble family yet their birth date r remembered. Jesus is supposed to be more prominent than them yet his birth year is unknown ? Even Mohammad the Prophet have his birth date recordedNo. napoleon and galileo lived too far from Christ. Napoleon was an emperor, for goodness sake.
I read them, and it tells people the year they r borned. U read at your jesus website and u know wat they write ? (between 8 and 4 bc-ad 29?) NOBODY EVEN KNOW WaT YEAR HE WAS BORNED ! Com'on man ! Tis is a real test to show none really knws wat year he was borned and die !
Pythagoras date well recorded? Go and read http://www.bookrags.com/biography-pythagoras/. For archimedes, read http://www.bookrags.com/biography-archimedes/ You think they record down pythagoras and archimedes birthdaes as well? Bull^^#! ..
Encarta gave a rough date for Jesus' birth. http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761565222/Jesus_Christ.html Britannica showed how they derive the rough year for his death http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article?tocId=9368533 We can safely say Jesus died circa 29 AD.ya la ya la what you trying to prove? If you wanna compare the age (250BC to constantine), then ancient Egyptian religion wins hands down.
Prove wat ? Prove u wrong lah ! U say christian is so great bla bla bla and wanna prove to me tat christianity has a longer foundation than buddhism. u know wat ? Tat is complete BULLSH!T. B.U.L.L.S.H.I.T
Hence I declare your statement "If u look at buddhism, they do influence the stated country too as well, and tat age is longer than christainity" to be pure #^$!.
I want u to eat back these words, as simple as tat. Enjoy your meal...Not really. Some emperors before Constantine weren't too hostile to chrisitianity. It was just that Constantine made it the state religion. Surely buddhism did not become state religion in 25 AD?
It is still 600 years later.Aiya, must I find another website to silent you?
U fail to read the introduction of your website.
From http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=14
When we get asked these questions about bestselling books, we always have to remind our patrons that their question is basically unanswerable. No one really knows which books have sold the most copies in history, because we simply don't have records that cover all of history! As such, any answer that we find is essentially just a "best guess" that is based upon estimates made by historians and other experts.
They can't know for sure, but u KNOW. Wow, u should be the author of tat website ! And they aren't comparing with the quran ! -
The son of God may not mean the 2nd person of the Trinity. Read what Marcus Borg thinks about the term - http://www.lexpages.com/SGN/paschal/borg.htmlOriginally posted by stupidissmart:I have shown u he claim he was the son of god. He couldn't be a wise man if he lie and when he claim he was son of god, he is claiming he is god.
SO the chruches who celebrate masses on christmaas day r not othodox ? I thought even catholic got a mass on tat day ? SO catholic are not othodox ?
You have problem with your eyes? I wrote "Orthodox" not "orthodox". You heard of the Russian Orthodox Church? Not that they are orthodox and the one in Vatican is not.
Why do they celebrate on 7, if perhaps they couldn't find exactly wat date he was born. Wat do u have to say to tat ?
.. that knowing his birthday is not necessary for salvation?
The date is recorded shows it is already important to be noted. Why should they go around and tell everyone why their birth date is important ? Isn't it obvious ? Tat is why almost all people u know now have their birth date recorded.
Who are they? I don't think Aristotle went around telling people about his birthday.
We have our birth date recorded 'cos we need to register the baby. You cannot compare us now and 1st century Palestine. Maybe they didn't even have birth cert like we do? Anyway some of our grandparents don't really know their birthday, what have you to say about that?
To most people, he is unknown. I am not gonna be proud and tell u honestly, I really do not know him untill u bring him up.
Good .. at least you are humble.
*pats SIS on the back*
They et famous later in life and people begin to record their brith date.
You have yet to tell me how did, for example, the source of Aristotle knew when he was born?
If u ask a normal christian probably they do not know who is he at all. U can't really give a famous person tat live at tat time and without a birthdate can't u ?
Aiya those christians probably never read Acts enough. Gamaliel is featured in Acts 5 and 22.
Hohohoho .. SIS is challenging me to prove a negative. That is easy. But I need his cooperation. I shall challenge him back - SIS you find me the birthdate of Pontius Pilate.
Don't give me the crap normal christian dunno who is Pontius Pilate. This guy is featured in the Apostle Creed which millions of christians read before, in their own languages.
U know them too, they r not from noble family yet their birth date r remembered.
How are their birth date recorded?
I read them, and it tells people the year they r borned. U read at your jesus website and u know wat they write ?
You have problems with abbervations? They wrote "circa" beside the year,meaning about, not on.
Prove wat ? Prove u wrong lah ! U say christian is so great bla bla bla and wanna prove to me tat christianity has a longer foundation than buddhism.
It was never about age, but amount of influence. It is like Apostle Paul was already establishing churches in Acts and within a short time, the epistles were in circulation. And after constantine, there was no sharp period of decline, unlike after asoka buddhism declined in influence in India. If it is about age, then of course ancient egyptian religion wins hands down.
They can't know for sure, but u KNOW. Wow, u should be the author of tat website !
At least my guess falls right on the "best guess", even historians and other experts agree with me. What about you? Yours probably not even a remote guess. -
25 Dec is just to commemorate the Nativity of Christ. We don't call that his birthday as we don't know the exact day when he was born. This is common in these days even till the last two century.
I dunno my grandparents' DOB and date they passed away. And I have not seen them before. They both died before I was even born. But does it make them less real? -
Originally posted by Honeybunz:25 Dec is just to commemorate the Nativity of Christ. We don't call that his birthday as we don't know the exact day when he was born. This is common in these days even till the last two century.
I dunno my grandparents' DOB and date they passed away. And I have not seen them before. They both died before I was even born. But does it make them less real?
u cant use ur grandparents as an example
everyone gotta have grandparents..else they dont exist... -
For the benefit of stupidissmart who has failed to do his homework and hence embarassed himself for not knowing the different between orthodox and Orthodox.Originally posted by Icemoon:You have problem with your eyes? I wrote "Orthodox" not "orthodox". You heard of the Russian Orthodox Church? Not that they are orthodox and the one in Vatican is not.
Here you go...
History of Orthodoxy
Eastern Orthodoxy as a distinct branch of Christianity arose as a result of the first major divide in Christendom occurred in the 11th century with the "Great Schism" between East and West. The separation was not sudden or unexpected, however. For centuries there had been significant religious, cultural, and political differences between the Eastern and Western churches. Religiously, the two regions had different views on topics such as the use of images (icons), the nature of the Holy Spirit, and the date on which Easter should be celebrated.
Culturally, the Greek East has always tended to be more philosophical, abstract and mystical in its thinking, whereas the Latin West tends toward a more pragmatic and legal-minded approach. (According to an old saying, "the Greeks built metaphysical systems; the Romans built roads." )
The political aspects of the split date back to the Emperor Constantine, who moved the capital of the Roman Empire from Rome to Constantinople. Upon his death, the empire was divided between his two sons, one of whom ruled the western half of the empire from Rome while the other ruled the eastern region from Constantinople.
These various factors finally came to a head in 1054 AD, when Pope Leo IX excommunicated the patriarch of Constantinople (the leader of the Eastern church). In response, the patriarch anathematized (condemned) the Pope, and the Christian church has been divided into West ("Roman Catholic" ) and East ("Greek Orthodox" ) ever since. A glimmer of hope for reconciliation came at the onset of the Crusades later that century, when the West came to the aid of the East against the Turks. But especially after the Fourth Crusade (1200-1204), in which crusaders sacked and occupied Constantinople, the only result was an increase in hostility between the two churches.
However, attempts at reconciliation have been renewed in recent years. In 1964, the Second Vatican Council issued this statement praising its Eastern counterparts:
The Catholic Church values highly the institutions of the Eastern Churches, their liturgical rites, ecclesiastical traditions, and their ordering of Christian life. For in those churches, which are distinguished by their venerable antiquity, there is clearly evident the tradition which has come from the Apostles through the Fathers and which is part of the divinely revealed, undivided heritage of the Universal Church.
On December 7, 1965, the mutual excommunication of 1054 was officially removed by Pope Paul VI and Patriarch Athenagoras. -
The son of God may not mean the 2nd person of the Trinity. Read what Marcus Borg thinks about the term - http://www.lexpages.com/SGN/paschal/borg.html
Wat do u think about the term then ? Wat is your idea of the trinity ? DO u think the god, son and spirit is one or they r different ?You have problem with your eyes? I wrote "Orthodox" not "orthodox". You heard of the Russian Orthodox Church? Not that they are orthodox and the one in Vatican is not.
Orthodox, not orthodox. Okie..... so a smaller group Orthodox views is greater than the bigger group of orthodox mainstream ? Why do u like to use the view of minority group rather than the majority view ? There r many many many different groups and so we cater to all of their views ?.. that knowing his birthday is not necessary for salvation?
Might as well don't celebrate isn't it ? Why celebrate at all ?Who are they? I don't think Aristotle went around telling people about his birthday.
As said before, the famous and important people in the past have recorded their brithday. The peopel I have listed r before the birth of jesus, yet their dates r recorded. Lets just be rational here. People like pythagoras and aristotle have their birthdate, or at leat birth year recorded. Jesus don't. The disciples pay attention to minute detail concerning his birth yet don't pay attention to the date. In fact the details of jesus birth is much detailed than the birth of aristotle or pythagoras. Tat is something wrong isn't it ?
We have our birth date recorded 'cos we need to register the baby. You cannot compare us now and 1st century Palestine. Maybe they didn't even have birth cert like we do? Anyway some of our grandparents don't really know their birthday, what have you to say about that?You have yet to tell me how did, for example, the source of Aristotle knew when he was born?
I have shown u a neutral book where they tells the date. I think u should be the one tat prove to me the source is wrong.Aiya those christians probably never read Acts enough. Gamaliel is featured in Acts 5 and 22.
Lets put it tis way. I do not believe in the bible. The people in the bible like pontius pilate, frankly speaking r not important enough to be recorded tat time. Bera in mind is is only after AD 300 then christianity became important. Before tat time, pontius pilate is only an officer. If u want famous people, u should seek real famous people who r famous at tat time. Not someone not really famous, not famous at his time or someone from the bible
Hohohoho .. SIS is challenging me to prove a negative. That is easy. But I need his cooperation. I shall challenge him back - SIS you find me the birthdate of Pontius Pilate.
Don't give me the crap normal christian dunno who is Pontius Pilate. This guy is featured in the Apostle Creed which millions of christians read before, in their own languagesHow are their birth date recorded?
U have problem with how they record their birth date ? U r trying to say the books and sources r all wrong ?You have problems with abbervations? They wrote "circa" beside the year,meaning about, not on.
http://www.kurdmedia.com/eim/hamid/scientist/aristotle.htm
http://www-groups.dcs.st-and.ac.uk/~history/Mathematicians/Archimedes.html
How about tis site then. The date is written as exact and the references is below.It was never about age, but amount of influence. It is like Apostle Paul was already establishing churches in Acts and within a short time, the epistles were in circulation. And after constantine, there was no sharp period of decline, unlike after asoka buddhism declined in influence in India. If it is about age, then of course ancient egyptian religion wins hands down.
ya la ya la what you trying to prove? It has never been about the amount of influence either as it meant nothing as well. Does it means christianity is right ? Wrong because it is only a phase, where buddhism or egytian religion has enjoyed in the past as well. MOreover the amount of influence is probably due much to crusaders as well as inquisition. If u talk about decline, then christianity now is facing a general decline in the western countries as well.At least my guess falls right on the "best guess", even historians and other experts agree with me. What about you? Yours probably not even a remote guess
My answer is always "Nobody really knows". Even the experts says they do not know. So I am not far from the truth -
My answer is always .. "I dunno" .. lolOriginally posted by stupidissmart:Wat do u think about the term then ? Wat is your idea of the trinity ?
As in research, I just do a literature review and show you what some experts think.
Orthodox, not orthodox. Okie..... so a smaller group Orthodox views is greater than the bigger group of orthodox mainstream ? Why do u like to use the view of minority group rather than the majority view ? There r many many many different groups and so we cater to all of their views ?
aiya .. this SIS lose liao nothing to say and so he resorted to using the majority vs minority argument. Very convenient huh?
Might as well don't celebrate isn't it ? Why celebrate at all ?
Not necessary for salvation doesn't mean they don't celebrate. My point is just that his real date is not a life and death matter for xtians. Your argument is that his date is not recorded precisely. I feel that precise or not makes no difference to the message of the gospel and of the Christian bible in general.
As said before, the famous and important people in the past have recorded their brithday. The peopel I have listed r before the birth of jesus, yet their dates r recorded.
Erm who recorded for these people? Maybe some of these people recorded their own life but Jesus never left any such records for us.
I have shown u a neutral book where they tells the date. I think u should be the one tat prove to me the source is wrong.
I was asking you how the author knew the date. I'm not questioning whether the date is written at all.
Lets put it tis way. I do not believe in the bible. The people in the bible like pontius pilate, frankly speaking r not important enough to be recorded tat time.
Pontius Pilate was recorded by the Jewish historian Josepheus. You don't doubt Josepheus do you?
Bera in mind is is only after AD 300 then christianity became important. Before tat time, pontius pilate is only an officer.
Josepheus wrote his works before AD 300.
If u want famous people, u should seek real famous people who r famous at tat time. Not someone not really famous, not famous at his time or someone from the bible
what's wrong with people from bible? You don't doubt Caesar Augustus do you?
U have problem with how they record their birth date ? U r trying to say the books and sources r all wrong ?
They wrong or not we also dunno, unless the date is verified by another author having no connections with the first one. I was trying to say you do not know the reason and process of the date recording.
How about tis site then. The date is written as exact and the references is below.
I can show you other sites which put 'c' or 'ca'. The point is, we are not entirely clear of the dates. How you explain why some sites put circa?
ya la ya la what you trying to prove? It has never been about the amount of influence either as it meant nothing as well. Does it means christianity is right ?
You were the one who started on this argument -U know Buddhism also has its share of accomplishment such as influencing china and india, influencing more people for more years than the bible. SO if u believe bible to be true, then buddhims must be false and by tat u r trying to say tat someone wrote a bestseller tat commands millions of people in the past for over 5000 years.
My challenge to you is how you prove buddhism influences "more people for more years than the bible"?
My answer is always "Nobody really knows". Even the experts says they do not know. So I am not far from the truth
The experts do not know by virtue of the fact no one has knowledge of all records. But with the information we have now, we know - Whatever the precise figure, the Bible is by far the bestselling book of all time.
If you are not willing to accept this "best guess", it is fine with me.